Title or nontitle fight if one contestant is overweight?

Use this Forum only for queries or observations on the records contained within the database.
Emaster
Posts: 471
Joined: 18 May 2008, 15:01
Location: Berlin, Germany

Title or nontitle fight if one contestant is overweight?

Postby Emaster » 01 Jun 2009, 12:11

If one of the boxers who were going to meet in a title fight has failed to make the weight and in consequence been ineligible for remaining or becoming the title holder, the question arises whether their fight has been a title fight.

It could be argued that a bout has only been a title fight if the title at stake has either been defended or captured (definition 1). This condition is fulfilled in the following cases:
- The (former) champion has failed to make the weight and lost the following bout (title captured, case 1, see below).
- The challenger has failed to make the weight and not won the following bout (title defended, case 3, see below).
- The title at stake was vacant prior to the fight and the boxer who has made the weight has won the following bout (title captured, case 5, see below).

According to definition 1, the recognition of a bout as a title fight depends on its result. Hence, only after the conclusion of the bout would one get to know whether a title or nontitle fight has taken place.

Another definition of a title fight: A bout is a title fight if at least one of the contestants is eligible to either defend or capture the title at stake (definition 2). According to this definition, all those bouts would be considered title fights which pit a boxer who has not made the weight against a boxer who has and therefore can defend or capture the title at stake.

But of course, its the sanctioning bodies who award titles and have to decide what a title fight is and BoxRec should merely record their decisions, which may differ from body to body and even be inconsistent within the same body.

Here's a compilation of fights exemplifying the various cases conceivable and showing their current recognition as title or nontitle fights in BoxRec:

case 1: The (former) champion has failed to make the weight and lost the following bout. Examples:
- 2012-03-24: Erik Morales vs. Danny Garcia for the vacant WBC light welterweight title; also listed here
- 2006-10-07: Diego Corrales vs. Joel Casamayor for the WBC lightweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2005-04-08: Mike Anchondo vs. Jorge Rodrigo Barrios for the WBO super featherweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2006-09-16: Jorge Rodrigo Barrios vs. Joan Guzman for the WBO super featherweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 1972-12-16: Clemente Sanchez vs. Jose Legra for the WBC featherweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2007-03-19: Lorenzo Parra vs. Takefumi Sakata for the WBA flyweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 1999-09-17: Manny Pacquiao vs. Medgoen Singsurat for the WBC flyweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 1998-11-13: Rosendo Alvarez vs. Ricardo Lopez for the WBA minimumweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2000-08-20: Noel Arambulet vs. Joma Gamboa for the WBA minimumweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2004-07-03: Noel Arambulet vs. Yutaka Niida for the WBA minimumweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here

case 2: The (former) champion has failed to make the weight but not lost the following bout. Examples:
- 2009-02-14: Nate Campbell vs. Ali Funeka for the vacant WBA Super/IBF/WBO lightweight titles according to BoxRec; also listed here, here, and here
- 2011-12-03: Brandon Rios vs. John Murray for the vacant WBA lightweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2009-11-21: Marvin Sonsona vs. Alejandro Hernandez for the vacant WBO super flyweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2004-10-02: Rosendo Alvarez vs. Beibis Mendoza for no title according to BoxRec; not listed here
- 2006-10-09: Wandee Singwancha vs. Munetsugu Kayo for no title according to BoxRec; not listed here
- 1998-08-29: Mauricio Pastrana vs. Carlos Murillo for no title according to BoxRec; not listed here
- 2011-08-13: Juan Palacios vs. Armando Torres for the WBA minimumweight interim title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 1996-03-16: Ratanapol Sor Vorapin vs. Lee Sandoval for no title according to BoxRec (wiki text contradicting comment box); not listed here

If the champion is the one who has failed to make the weight, is stripped of his title as a result, and the following bout is indeed considered a title fight, it is still to be determined whether the title at stake should be marked vacant.
delisa wrote:I am not sure i agree that [titles at stake in fights like in case 1 or 2] are deemed "vacant" in the classical sense -- they are better called "contingent" since the title can be won by the at-weight challenger -- if the challenger loses it is vacant.

I think vacant applies to a title where both fighters have a shot at winning the title.
Whether only one of the fighters or both of them can win the title in their match should not be relevant to the question whether a vacant title is at stake. If neither of the contestants enters the title fight as the defending champion, which is the case if the champion has been stripped of his title on the scales, the bout should be considered a vacant title fight.

case 3: The challenger has failed to make the weight and not won the following bout. Examples:
- 2009-01-10: Zsolt Erdei vs. Yuri Barashian for the WBO light heavyweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2000-07-22: Joel Casamayor vs. Bernard Harris, which was demoted to a ten-rounder, for no title according to BoxRec and these reports; not listed here
- 1993-09-11: Tom Johnson vs. Bebis Rojas for the IBF featherweight title according to BoxRec and a statement made by IBF supervisor Al Goodman: "It's still a title fight, but Rojas can't win the belt"; also listed here
- 2006-02-25: Jhonny Gonzalez vs. Mark Johnson for no title according to BoxRec; not listed here
- 2006-04-08: Jorge Arce vs. Rosendo Alvarez for the WBC flyweight interim title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2011-10-01: Roman Gonzalez vs. Omar Soto for the WBA light flyweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here
- 2004-03-20: Ivan Calderon vs. Edgar Cardenas for no title according to BoxRec; not listed here

case 4: The challenger has failed to make the weight but won the following bout. Examples:
- 2005-10-08: Diego Corrales vs. Jose Luis Castillo for no titles according to BoxRec and a statement made by WBO president Franciso Valcarcel: "We were willing to sanction the fight [...] but the fight happened without any titles so we didn't have any jurisdiction over it"; not listed here or here
- 2005-11-07: Steve Martinez vs. Alfonso Sanchez for no title according to BoxRec; not listed here
- 2008-12-10: Oscar Ibarra vs. Jose Alberto Cuadros for the NABF flyweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here

case 5: The title at stake was vacant prior to the fight and the boxer who has made the weight has won the following bout.
- 2009-08-15: Nonito Donaire vs. Rafael Concepcion for the WBA super flyweight interim title according to BoxRec; also listed here

case 6: The title at stake was vacant prior to the fight and the boxer who has made the weight has not won the following bout.
- 2012-04-14: Brandon Rios vs. Richard Abril for the vacant WBA lightweight title according to BoxRec
- 2010-03-27: Joan Guzman vs. Ali Funeka for the vacant IBF lightweight title according to BoxRec; also listed here

Certain questions arise with title unification bouts (e.g. regarding the number of title defenses as, among other things, discussed here and in this section of the encyclopaedia) and cases of overweight fighters (e.g. regarding the recognition of bouts as title fights as discussed in this thread). Various cases to solve emerge when combining the two situations. Proposals on how to handle them are presented below:

It is assumed in the following that a champion who loses the fight against an overweight challenger will not be stripped of his title(s).

1. Interim champion vs. full champion

1.1 Interim champion who has made the weight vs. overweight full champion

1.1.1 The full champion is stripped of his title, which can only be captured by the interim champion in the upcoming fight.

1.1.1.1 The interim champion wins the fight and the vacant full title. (both definitions: vacant full title at stake)
1.1.1.2 The interim champion loses the fight but keeps his interim title without gaining a successful title defense. The full title remains vacant. (def 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant full title at stake)
1.1.1.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the interim champion keeps his title and gains a successful title defense. The full title remains vacant. (def. 1: interim title at stake, def. 2: vacant full title, interim title* at stake)

1.1.2 The interim champion is even upgraded to full champion before the upcoming fight and keeps the full title in any case.

1.1.2.1 The new full champion, that is the former interim champion, does not lose the fight and gains the first successful title defense. (both defs.: full title at stake)
1.1.2.2 The new full champion loses the fight but keeps his title without gaining the first successful title defense. (def. 1: no title at stake, def. 2: full title at stake)

1.2 Overweight interim champion vs. full champion who has made the weight

The interim champion is stripped of his title. The full champion keeps his title in any case.

1.2.1 The full champion does not lose the fight and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: full title at stake)
1.2.2 The full champion loses the fight but keeps his title without gaining a successful title defense. (def. 1: no title at stake, def. 2: full title at stake)

2. WBA regular champion vs. champion who is not recognized by the WBA but at least one major sanctioning body (non-WBA champion)

2.1. WBA regular champion who has made the weight vs. overweight non-WBA champion

The non-WBA champion is stripped of his title(s), which -- along with the WBA super championship -- can only be captured by the regular champion in the upcoming fight.

2.1.1 The regular champion wins the fight, the vacant WBA super championship and the other vacant title(s). (both defs.: vacant WBA super title, vacant other title(s) at stake)
2.1.2 The regular champion loses the fight but keeps his title without gaining a successful title defense. The WBA super championship and the other title(s) remain(s) vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, vacant other title(s) at stake)
2.1.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the regular champion keeps his title and gains a successful title defense. The WBA super championship and the other title(s) remain(s) vacant. (def. 1: WBA title at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, WBA title**, vacant other title(s) at stake)

2.2. Overweight WBA regular champion vs. non-WBA champion who has made the weight

2.2.1 The regular champion is stripped of his title. The vacant WBA super championship can only be captured by the non-WBA champion in the upcoming fight. The latter keeps his title(s) in any case.

2.2.1.1 The non-WBA champion wins the fight and the vacant WBA super championship and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: vacant WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)
2.2.1.2 The non-WBA champion loses the fight but keeps his title(s) without gaining a successful title defense. The WBA super championship remains vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)
2.2.1.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the non-WBA champion keeps his title(s) and gains a successful title defense. The WBA super championship remains vacant. (def. 1: other title(s) at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)

2.2.2 The regular champion is stripped of his title. The vacant WBA super championship cannot be captured by any fighter in the upcoming fight. The non-WBA champion keeps his title(s) in any case.

2.2.2.1 The non-WBA champion does not lose the fight and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: other title(s) at stake)
2.2.2.2 The non-WBA champion loses the fight but keeps his title(s) without gaining a successful title defense. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: other title(s) at stake)

3. WBA regular champion vs. WBA super champion who holds at least one more major title

3.1. WBA regular champion who has made the weight vs. overweight WBA super champion

The super champion is stripped of his titles, which can only be captured by the regular champion in the upcoming fight.

3.1.1 The regular champion wins the fight and the vacant titles. (both def.: vacant WBA super title, vacant other title(s) at stake)
3.1.2 The regular champion loses the fight but keeps his regular title without gaining a successful title defense. The other titles remain vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, vacant other title(s) at stake)
3.1.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the regular champion keeps his title and gains a successful title defense. The other titles remain vacant. (def. 1: WBA title at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, WBA title**, vacant other title(s) at stake)

3.2. Overweight WBA regular champion vs. WBA super champion who has made the weight

The regular champion is stripped of his title. The super champion keeps his titles in any case.

3.2.1 The super champion does not lose the fight and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)
3.2.2 The super champion loses the fight but keeps his titles without gaining a successful title defense. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)

4. Champion who is not recognized by the WBA but at least one major sanctioning body (non-WBA champion) vs. WBA super champion who holds at least one more major title

4.1. Non-WBA champion who has made the weight vs. overweight WBA super champion

4.1.1 The super champion is stripped of his titles, which can only be captured by the non-WBA champion in the upcoming fight. The latter keeps his title(s) in any case.

4.1.1.1 The non-WBA champion wins the fight, the vacant WBA super championship and the vacant non-WBA title(s) and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: vacant WBA super title, vacant non-WBA title(s), non-WBA title(s) at stake)
4.1.1.2 The non-WBA champion loses the fight but keeps his title(s) without gaining a successful title defense. The WBA super championship and the other non-WBA title(s) remain vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, vacant non-WBA title(s), non-WBA title(s) at stake)
4.1.1.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the non-WBA champion keeps his title(s) and gains a successful title defense. The WBA super championship and the other non-WBA title(s) remain vacant. (def. 1: non-WBA title(s) at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, vacant non-WBA title(s), non-WBA title(s) at stake)

4.1.2 The super champion is stripped of his titles. The WBA super championship cannot be captured by any fighter in the upcoming fight. The non-WBA champion keeps his title(s) in any case.

4.1.2.1 The non-WBA champion wins the fight and the vacant non-WBA title(s) and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: vacant non-WBA title(s), non-WBA title(s) at stake)
4.1.2.2 The non-WBA champion loses the fight but keeps his title(s) without gaining a successful title defense. The other non-WBA title(s) remain vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant non-WBA title(s), non-WBA title(s) at stake)
4.1.2.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the non-WBA champion keeps his title(s) and gains a successful title defense. The other non-WBA title(s) remain vacant. (def. 1: non-WBA title(s) at stake, def. 2: vacant non-WBA title(s), non-WBA title(s) at stake)

4.2 Overweight non-WBA champion vs. WBA super champion who has made the weight

The non-WBA champion is stripped of his title(s), which can only be captured by the super champion in the upcoming fight.

4.2.1 The super champion wins the fight and the vacant non-WBA title(s) and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: WBA super title, non-WBA title(s), vacant non-WBA title(s) at stake)
4.2.2 The super champion loses the fight but keeps his titles without gaining a successful title defense. The other non-WBA title(s) remain(s) vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: WBA super title, non-WBA title(s), vacant non-WBA title(s) at stake)
4.2.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the super champion keeps his titles and gains a successful title defense. The other non-WBA title(s) remain(s) vacant. (def. 1: WBA super title, non-WBA title(s) at stake, def. 2: WBA super title, non-WBA title(s), vacant non-WBA title(s) at stake)

5. WBA regular champion vs. WBA super champion who does not hold another major title

5.1 WBA regular champion who has made the weight vs. overweight WBA super champion

5.1.1 The super champion is stripped of his title, which can only be captured by the regular champion in the upcoming fight.

5.1.1.1 The regular champion wins the fight and the vacant super championship. (both defs.: vacant WBA super title at stake)
5.1.1.2 The regular champion loses the fight but keeps his title without gaining a successful title defense. The WBA super championship remains vacant. (def. 1.: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title at stake)
5.1.1.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the regular champion keeps his title and gains a successful title defense. The WBA super championship remains vacant. (def. 1: WBA title at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, WBA title** at stake)

5.1.2 The super champion is stripped of his title, which cannot be captured by any fighter in the upcoming fight. The regular champion keeps his title in any case.

5.1.2.1 The regular champion does not lose the fight and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: WBA title at stake)
5.1.2.2 The regular champion loses the fight but keeps his title without gaining a successful title defense. (def. 1: no title at stake, def. 2: WBA title at stake)

5.2. Overweight WBA regular champion vs. WBA super champion who has made the weight

The regular champion is stripped of his title. The super champion keeps his title in any case.

5.2.1 The super champion does not lose the fight and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: WBA super title at stake)
5.2.2 The super champion loses the fight but keeps his title without gaining a successful title defense. (def. 1: no title at stake, def. 2: WBA super title at stake)

6. Champion who is not recognized by the WBA but at least one major sanctioning body (non-WBA champion) vs. WBA super champion who does not hold another major title

6.1. Non-WBA champion who has made the weight vs. overweight WBA super champion

6.1.1 The super champion is stripped of his title, which can only be captured by the non-WBA champion in the upcoming fight. The latter keeps his title(s) in any case.

6.1.1.1 The non-WBA champion wins the fight, the vacant WBA super championship and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: vacant WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)
6.1.1.2 The non-WBA champion loses the fight but keeps his title(s) without gaining a successful title defense. The WBA super championship remains vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)
6.1.1.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the non-WBA champion keeps his title(s) and gains a successful title defense. The WBA super championship remains vacant. (def. 1: other title(s) at stake, def. 2: vacant WBA super title, other title(s) at stake)

6.1.2 The super champion is stripped of his title. The vacant WBA super championship cannot be captured by any fighter in the upcoming fight. The non-WBA champion keeps his title(s) in any case.

6.1.2.1 The non-WBA champion does not lose the fight and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: other title(s) at stake)
6.1.2.2 The non-WBA champion loses the fight but keeps his title(s) without gaining a successful title defense. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: other title(s) at stake)

6.2 Overweight non-WBA champion vs. WBA super champion who has made the weight

The non-WBA champion is stripped of his title(s), which can only be captured by the super champion in the upcoming fight.

6.2.1 The super champion wins the fight and the vacant title(s) and gains a successful title defense. (both defs.: WBA super title, vacant other title(s) at stake)
6.2.2 The super champion loses the fight but keeps his title without gaining a successful title defense. The other title(s) remain(s) vacant. (def. 1: no titles at stake, def. 2: WBA super title, vacant other title(s) at stake)
6.2.3 The fight does not produce a winner so that the super champion keeps his title and gains a successful title defense. The other title(s) remain(s) vacant. (def. 1: WBA super title at stake, def. 2: WBA super title, vacant other title(s) at stake)

* Both the interim title and the vacant full title should be considered at stake if the interim champion does not catch the vacant full title, but defends his interim title successfully.
** Both the WBA regular title and the vacant WBA super title should be considered at stake if the WBA regular champion does not catch the vacant WBA super title, but defends his WBA regular title successfully.

Return to “Record Queries & Updates”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests