Best and worse at keeping in shape or training properly?

[Bodyshot3]

And yet again you have entirely missed the point and are in danger of just typecasting yourself as the commentator who jumps straight into patronisingly lecturing others who might just conceivably just have a valid point to share....

....this thread remains concerned with fighters who kept themselves in shape and those who did not. That is the debate Controversial initiated.

Bruno for the record was never a pure weight-lifter; in fact it was quite the opposite because Lawless and Francis were deeply opposed to this regime and emphasised the need for Frank to run, improve his reflexes and flexibility.

They actually went to great lengths to keep Bruno's weight work to a bare minimum and the training for the Witherspoon fight was based around mobility and stamina.

The fight with Witherspoon - my original point - was that Bruno was very much in shape and that Tim was not in good nick.

The superior boxer won (Witherspoon) and that is not disputed; but on the night of the fight Bruno was the fitter, more dedicated athlete and Tim who had clearly not been in the gym everyday or eaten particularly well still won.

I wanted to pick an example of two very different fighters; one who trained like hell and was a specimen and one who did not but who could box at a better level but often let himself go.

[Kalan]

I'm not lecturing, but I don't agree with your "for the record" BS

For the record Bruno looked like a muscle bound idiot.. A guy with a great training regimen doesn't look or fight like that. Witherspoon was fluid and flexible. He may have been a little rotund, but he got the job done.

Another 2 are Vasyl Lomachenko and Amir Khan.. Loma looks perfect while Khan looks like he never practices infighting, or slipping and ducking punches.

[Sidney Carton]

BEST

Gene Tunney
Tommy Loughran
Bennie Briscoe
Benny Leonard
Gene Fullmer

WORST

Lew Jenkins
John L Sullivan
Young Griffo

[IKSRTFO]

Boxers are athletes and they should live like them. Never understood this ballooning between fights.

No excuse not to run, power walk, or do some consistent form of aerobic activity between fights.

White collar workers who are not athletes do. So should all boxers.

So is Shaquelle O'neal who would balloon between seasons.

[IKSRTFO]

Yeah? ... Well Oliver McCall was no defensive master either.. He was never shaken.. Man had a very strong chin.. If you do it holds up.

Can't compare McCall with anyone as his chin was superhuman. But just because a boxer was stopped at heavyweight doesn't mean they're chinny. Would you call Holyfield chinny?

[Syntax Error]

I heard that Buster Douglas trained for the Holyfield fight by "by eating pizza in the sauna"?

Steve Robinson is one who comes to mind as always being in tremendous condition (including after retirement)

I can believe that about Buster!

He probably hit a slab of kebab meat rather than a heavy bag in the gym too!

[Caractacus]

Carmen Basilio always looked like he was in terrific shape.

[Kalan]

Basilio was a hard worker, but he looked raggedy losing 3 fights to Gene Fullmer and Paul Pender -- 2 light hitters... I think he was wearing down at the end.

[elmersalsa]

Basilio was a hard worker, but he looked raggedy losing 3 fights to Gene Fullmer and Paul Pender -- 2 light hitters... I think he was wearing down at the end.

Everyone has a decline, Kalan. Nobody stays at top level in any sport for a long period of time. At some point, you gotta digress. That happens to everybody.

[Tomasino]

Basilio was a hard worker, but he looked raggedy losing 3 fights to Gene Fullmer and Paul Pender -- 2 light hitters... I think he was wearing down at the end.

Everyone has a decline, Kalan. Nobody stays at top level in any sport for a long period of time. At some point, you gotta digress. That happens to everybody.

Basillio had arthritic pain in his hands well before he won the welterweight world title. He was in penonmenal physical condition in his prime.

[Kalan]

Basilio was a hard worker, but he looked raggedy losing 3 fights to Gene Fullmer and Paul Pender -- 2 light hitters... I think he was wearing down at the end.

Everyone has a decline, Kalan. Nobody stays at top level in any sport for a long period of time. At some point, you gotta digress. That happens to everybody.

Hmmm... Mayweather was pretty good at 38... Eder Jofre at 40... Vitali Klitschko at 41... and I thought Eddie Cotton won the LHW title from Jose Torres at 40... Bernard Hopkins DID win the LHW Title from Jean Pascal at 46... and a LHW Title form Tavoris Cloud at 49... Larry Holmes SHOULD have won a Heavyweight Title from Ray Mercer at 42---since he ourboxed Mercer easily and Mercer knocked out Tommy Morrison for the WBO Heavyweight Title in his previous fight, and then was stripped for fighting Holmes... Holmes should have won a Heavyweight Title from Oliver McCall at 45, but didn't get the decision... George Foreman stopped Michael Moorer at 45 with a shocking KO to win the Lineal Heavyweight Title... Jack Johnson dominated top contender Pat Lester in a 15 rounder when he was 48... and mildly old was Roberto Duran when he outfoxed Iran Barkley for the WBC Middleweight Title at 37-- keeping in mind that Duran fought his first 64 fights from Bantamweight to Lightweight.

So when you look at performances like the above, there's no reason for guys like Carmen Basilio and Ray Robinson to stink it up, look shocking inept in some losses at 33 - and Sugar Ray Leonard looking like sh!t at 34 - and Ali losing to 6-0-1 cherry-pick Leon Spinks at 36 when he should have been fighting Larry Holmes. Those are comparatively young ages compared to some of the craftier old boys who did a lot better at older ages.

But what I think is just as important as age, is the mental aspect... The preparation and a powerful belief you're going to win... Because some of the above fought terrible fights in their 20's or early 30's -- and later fought seemingly genius fights in their late 30's and 40's when they captured that faith.

[bollocks]

Even though I was a young fan... I can clearly remember Tim Witherspoon arriving in London for the Bruno fight looking decidedly portly and the British tabloids baiting him by asking why he trained in a baggy sweatshirt; so what are you hiding Tim and are you going to take your top off?

Think a few of them called him the Pillsbury Doughboy and that Witherspoon was taking being a heavyweight far too literally. And they talked-up Frank's chances by saying that Witherspoon was going to be blowing after three rounds against a 'specimen' like Bruno.

Did not work out that way of course - Witherspoon was seasoned, tough and the far better boxer - but he rocked-up in London looking anything but an athlete and although Tim was never 'ripped' he clearly had left it late for the Bruno fight.

That whole fight was interesting regarding this question; Bruno had pretty much lived under the Spartan regime of the late George Francis and looked as if he could knock down a wall and Witherspoon looked...well, rather lardy.

The fight was a (relatively) rare case of a totally dedicated, powerful man like Bruno who had lived and breathed the fight-game being beaten by a guy who had done seemingly very little of the same hard grind but had the boxing nous to get the result.

I think this may have been the fight that Spoon went home with $60,ooo out of a $1,000,000+ purse, thanks to Don King's 'management fees'. If so it's no wonder Spoon turned up a fat bastard

[Controversial]

Basilio was a hard worker, but he looked raggedy losing 3 fights to Gene Fullmer and Paul Pender -- 2 light hitters... I think he was wearing down at the end.

Everyone has a decline, Kalan. Nobody stays at top level in any sport for a long period of time. At some point, you gotta digress. That happens to everybody.

Hmmm... Mayweather was pretty good at 38... Eder Jofre at 40... Vitali Klitschko at 41... and I thought Eddie Cotton won the LHW title from Jose Torres at 40... Bernard Hopkins DID win the LHW Title from Jean Pascal at 46... and a LHW Title form Tavoris Cloud at 49... Larry Holmes SHOULD have won a Heavyweight Title from Ray Mercer at 42---since he ourboxed Mercer easily and Mercer knocked out Tommy Morrison for the WBO Heavyweight Title in his previous fight, and then was stripped for fighting Holmes... Holmes should have won a Heavyweight Title from Oliver McCall at 45, but didn't get the decision... George Foreman stopped Michael Moorer at 45 with a shocking KO to win the Lineal Heavyweight Title... Jack Johnson dominated top contender Pat Lester in a 15 rounder when he was 48... and mildly old was Roberto Duran when he outfoxed Iran Barkley for the WBC Middleweight Title at 37-- keeping in mind that Duran fought his first 64 fights from Bantamweight to Lightweight.

A tiny % of fighters are still world class over a certain age, when you consider how many thousands of fighters there have been over the last 100+ years the list is minuscule.

[Bodyshot3]

Despite Kalan's imagination running riot, Bruno was in fact a fanatical trainer, and Francis and Lawless both had problems trying to make the guy take a day off from training, whether he had a fight coming up or not.

Thank you Golden Oldie and that's my recollection of Bruno as well:TU:

I was trying to make the point about Bruno being a fighter who was always very much in shape - and actually needed reigning back - but then hit proverbial brick wall when faced by the 'Omnipotent One' who graciously hands down superior knowledge to us mere mortals and simpletons.

The thread for me was about fighters who really did keep in shape - perhaps even took it to extremes like Frank - and those who did not.

The discussion was not about technical ability but rather those who worked hard, ate well and were ready to fight...and those who cut corners.

Bruno was a model professional in that respect and also should not have been dismissed as just some weights-room freak and Spoon was sometimes (although not always) at the other end of the spectrum.

George Francis and Lawless had Bruno swimming, working with aerobics pros and sports masseurs and well ahead of their time.

In so many ways Frank's overall success was all about maximising his fairly basic ability to the hilt by being supremely fit, strong and dedicated.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Do you think his stamina issues were from anxiety?

[Counter-puncher]

Do you think his stamina issues were from anxiety?

Inability to relax in the ring/stiffness/whatever you'd call it it was all part of Bruno's syndrome

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Do you think his stamina issues were from anxiety?

Inability to relax in the ring/stiffness/whatever you'd call it it was all part of Bruno's syndrome

Oscar had the same problem.

[Counter-puncher]

Do you think his stamina issues were from anxiety?

Inability to relax in the ring/stiffness/whatever you'd call it it was all part of Bruno's syndrome

Oscar had the same problem.

Indeed, I can't speak to oscars dedication in training (funnily enough his name came to mind as soon as I posted that)but everyone who ever spoke about bruno said he was a totally committed trainer, if he had a problem with stamina it was genetic or mental or whatever but not from a lack of dedication, he was a poster boy for dedication over talent

[Counter-puncher]

I bet Brian Mitchell was never out of shape FWIW

[Bodyshot3]

Do you think his stamina issues were from anxiety?

Yes I do Saad.

Bruno had multiple shortcomings; mentally he was prone to getting very anxious and burning though energy/not listening to gameplans and as we have subsequently discovered he was someone who struggled with the huge fame that was only made worse by his undiagnosed bipolar condition.

Something that (sadly) he still battles with this to this day.

He was also a fighter with clear limitations in terms of boxing skills.

Being objective rather than applying lazy, sweeping, dismissive statements, there is no point in arguing the toss that both these critical issues held Frank back and that he arguably, massively over-achieved.

But keeping on topic; he was a formidably fit, dedicated professional fighter. Not once did I ever see Bruno ever look anything less than in tip-top shape for a fight in a long career (at any point) and that is to his immense credit.

[Kalan]

Despite Kalan's imagination running riot, Bruno was in fact a fanatical trainer, and Francis and Lawless both had problems trying to make the guy take a day off from training, whether he had a fight coming up or not.

Thank you Golden Oldie and that's my recollection of Bruno as well:TU:

I was trying to make the point about Bruno being a fighter who was always very much in shape - and actually needed reigning back - but then hit proverbial brick wall when faced by the 'Omnipotent One' who graciously hands down superior knowledge to us mere mortals and simpletons.

The thread for me was about fighters who really did keep in shape - perhaps even took it to extremes like Frank - and those who did not.

The discussion was not about technical ability but rather those who worked hard, ate well and were ready to fight...and those who cut corners.

Bruno was a model professional in that respect and also should not have been dismissed as just some weights-room freak and Spoon was sometimes (although not always) at the other end of the spectrum.

George Francis and Lawless had Bruno swimming, working with aerobics pros and sports masseurs and well ahead of their time.

In so many ways Frank's overall success was all about maximising his fairly basic ability to the hilt by being supremely fit, strong and dedicated.

Not to beat a dead horse, but "training properly" relates to much more than just getting your body strong and resistant to punishment.. Anybody who saw Tyson-Bruno II saw an overly muscular and vulnerable punching bag to the point where Tyson merely had to load up and throw ... It didn't look to me as if Bruno had done a lot of quality sparring and mitt work -- or a lot of speed work or defensive drills in preparation -- and he was too bulky

In Bruno's better fights he looked lighter, quicker, and less muscular -- but he tended to break down mentally when he was doing great.. Mental training is a very important part of it.. I thought he was ahead of Lewis when he was stopped in the 7th.. He looked quick and not too muscular. He and started well. His jabs, hooks and right counters were working nice. If he hung with that he would have scored the upset.

Lewis employed very dirty tactics to turn the tide -- rabbit punching; holding and hitting; extending his left and keeping it out there; then actually putting his left palm right in Bruno's face repeatedly and contemptuously -- to get hard blows in and him out of there. Unbelievably Lewis got away with severe palming without points being taken.. I've never seen anybody get away with that after hard warnings.. Bruno was making a great fight of it before that.. Lewis got 2 severe warnings for dirty fighting earlier, but none when he was doing the dirtiest work finishing Bruno off.

[Bodyshot3]

I bet Brian Mitchell was never out of shape FWIW

Good call mate, Mitchell was an outstanding fighter and also a model professional/athlete.

Saw him do some media work when Martin Murray was fighting in France for South Africa's Rodney Berman a couple of years back...and many years into retirement....and he still looked handy. No middle age bulge there.

Jo'burg and Pretoria are both at altitude and towns with a long, proper fighting heritage so he had the right schooling and a great place to train.

Think that Lennox got got caught out when he fought Rahman in Brakpan - another high spot - although he may have ignored Rahman as well.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No question frank was chiseled, that just doesn't always mean trained. I remember the first time I saw frank was against coetzee. Never boring, that's for sure. He'd do well these days.

[Syntax Error]

Poor Frank was on the wrong end of the only hook I ever saw lennox toss.

That is so true.

I don't know where Lewis pulled that Left hook from; in fact, I don't believe that he knows either.

It was arguably the proverbial lucky punch.

[Syntax Error]

Poor Frank was on the wrong end of the only hook I ever saw lennox toss.

That is so true.

I don't know where Lewis pulled that Left hook from; in fact, I don't believe that he knows either.

It was arguably the proverbial lucky punch.

I don't know about that. The one that set up Rahman for the big right hand that followed it wasn't too shabby either.

Good shout; it was the perfect set up punch for the crunching finisher.