Questions about Rocky Marciano

[Kaaspeer]

Which 5 wins do you consider to be Rocky Marciano's top 5 wins, in which order?

How much past it was Joe Louis when Marciano beat him? So much past it that it shouldn't still count as a respectable win or was it at least an okay win? Remember, Marciano was technically a cruiserweight fighting a heavyweight.

Don't you think that his wins against Roland LaStarza are underrated?

I hope for some good answers.

[Simon Lock]

Archie Moore
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles 1
Ezzard Charles 2
Jersey Joe Walcott 2

Louis was probably only 80% of the fighter he had been, and only ranks so highly in this list because Marciano for the most part fought low quality opponents. Walcott and Charles were also only at around 70-80% of their peak when he fought them. LaStarza was ok, but nothing special.

[Kaaspeer]

Archie Moore
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles 1
Ezzard Charles 2
Jersey Joe Walcott 2

Louis was probably only 80% of the fighter he had been, and only ranks so highly in this list because Marciano for the most part fought low quality opponents. Walcott and Charles were also only at around 70-80% of their peak when he fought them. LaStarza was ok, but nothing special.

Hmmm... I think this list would do, while considering what you just said:

1: Archie Moore (who was still a good boxer when Marciano got him, undeniably his best win)
2: Ezzard Charles
3: Ezzard Charles
(I rank Charles higher than the Louis win here because Charles had defeated Louis before Marciano did it and Charles was in better shape against Marciano than Louis was)
4: Joe Louis (Louis was past it, but not horrible + this was a cruiserweight vs a heavyweight)
5: Walcott or LaStarza, I can't decide.

[Woller]

Oh yes - After all "The very old boys club"

[Ambling Alp II]

1. Walcott I
2. Moore
3. Charles I
4. Charles II
5. Layne


Walcott was old, but still clearly had a lot left when he fought Marciano the first time. He had just beaten Charles twice and looked very good in the first Marciano fight. Has to be rated higher than the wins over Charles given that Charles was in a bit of a slump going into the Marciano fights.

Walcott and Moore were old when they fought Marciano, but they are the exception to the rule. Both bloomed late in their careers.

2nd fight, hard to tell what Walcott was doing. Hard to give Marciano a lot of credit for that one.

The knockout of Layne is Marciano's most underrated win. Layne had wins over Charles and Walcott, and almost beat LaStarza during his career.

As for the other questions:
Louis was way past it by the time he fought Marciano. Layne and La Starza would probably have been beaten that version of Louis.
Don't think the wins over LaStarza are underrated. The first one he won on a questionable decision. The 2nd one was a solid performance by Marciano and most people seem to realize it.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Ampling Ap,

I like your post, but I don't think Layne or Lastarza would beat Joe Louis in 1950. Louis was still a lot bigger than both of them at 6'2 215lb, and he had a fantastic left jab, along with high ring IQ, and good fundamentals. I think Louis would use his size, skills and jab to bloody up Lastarza and win a unanimous decision. Cesar Brion gave Lastarza a close competitive fight, and the scorecards were very close. Louis won a near shutout decision in both fights with Brion, and marked his face up so badly you could barely recognize him.

I think Louis would knock Layne out. Layne would sit right in front of Louis, and the Lee Savold fight showed even if you stand in front of a 37 year old Louis, you are going to get your face smashed in. Layne had no defense. Louis would pick apart Layne with his boxing skills, and bloody his face up with the jab. Sometime late in the fight, Louis finally lands a few hard punches and knocks Layne out with a left hook. Lastarza and Layne both didn't have the speed(Charles) or the punching power(Marciano) to severely threaten a 37 year old Joe Louis. Layne was given a gift decision over Cesar Brion, a fight most ringsiders thought Brion edged. In comparison, Louis easily won by wide margin on all 3 scorecards in both fights vs Brion. Layne also fought to a draw with Andy Walker. In comparison, Louis knocked Walker out, and dominated the entire fight.

Watching Louis vs Marciano and Marciano vs Layne...

Louis looked a lot more competitive with Marciano. Marked Marcianos face up with the jab, won a few rounds.

Layne got battered from the start, lost every round, and got knocked out cold with 1 punch.



I also think Charles of first Marciano fight was better than Moore of 1955. Moore got a severe beating from Marciano, and lost almost every round. Charles went 15 with Marciano, and the scorecards were very close.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Here is my list

1. Jersey Joe Walcott I
2. Ezzard Charles I
3. Archie Moore
4. Joe Louis
5. Rex Layne


Jersey Joe Walcott was the heavyweight champion of the world, fresh off two victories over Ezzard Charles. Walcott boxed beautifully against Marciano for 13 rounds, and came the closest to defeating Marciano.

Ezzard Charles showed up in lean, terrific shape(185lb) on June 17, 1954, and gave Marciano one of the toughest fights of his career. A fight that went 15 round distance, and was close on the scorecards. The fight turned into a ring classic, one of the most grueling fights of all time. Charles recorded a career best one punch knockout over Bob Satterfield immediately prior to this fight.

Archie Moore was the # 1 heavyweight contender in the world, and light-heavyweight champion of the world. Archie was on a 21-0 run, and had just beaten hall of famer Harold Johnson, and a pair of dangerous top heavyweight contenders Nino Valdes and Bob Baker. Moore put Marciano on the floor, and looked sharp all night. Moore would go on to accomplish a lot after losing to Marciano.

Joe Louis was far past his prime at 37 years old. However, he was on a 8 fight winning steak and rose to status as the # 2 heavyweight contender in the world. At 6'2 215lb, he had size combined with crafty skills, and a powerhouse left jab. When his opponent stood in front of him, he could still pack a wallop at times. I rate Louis over Layne and Lastarza, because Louis easily defeated opponents who gave Lastarza and Layne all sorts of problems.

Rex Layne was 22 years old and the # 4 heavyweight contender in the world. He was being compared to Jack Dempsey by some boxing writers, and was coming off sensational victories over Jersey Joe Walcott and Bob Satterfield. Layne packed a very good right hand, nice left jab, and a terrific chin. Layne also was well known for having relentless stamina, and an abundance of courage. His confidence was riding as high as ever going into the Marciano fight, and was a 9-5 favorite over the Rock.


Just missed: Ezzard Charles II. Charles suffered a severe beating in that first Marciano fight, and was never the same again. He showed up for the rematch at a much heavier 193lb, and looked slower and more lethargic than in the first Marciano fight. Charles got dominated every round. Outside of the freak nose cut that may have been caused by an elbow, Charles was never in the fight. After this fight, Charles would lose to journeyman level opposition the rest of his career

[Ezzard]

Honestly Marciano’s wins seem to get downgraded…

Walcott I was a fantastic win. One of the best ever. And Walcott II? Okay it was 8 months later and Joe never fought again… When Tyson KO’d Spinks in 1…Spinks hadn’t fougth in 12 months and also never fought again…yet somehow that’s considered a great win.

I’d go with

Walcott I
Charles I
Moore
Charles II
Layne
LaStarza
Walcott II

[Ambling Alp II]

I think the reason I (and some others) don't give Marciano a lot of credit for the 2nd Walcott fight is that appears that Walcott was not even trying. He didn't do anything offensively, and didn't get up after getting knocked down when it looked like he could have.

Spinks at least seemed to be trying against Tyson.

[Ambling Alp II]

In response to some of Brocktonblockbuster's comments:
I agree with much of what you are saying as well.
As where we differ, I think Layne was a better fighter going into the Marciano than Louis was going into his fight with Marciano.

Yes there were some that thought Layne should not have got the decision vs Brion; however there were some who did. I saw one of the Louis-Brion fights and thought it was much closer than the scores. Louis looked slow and was not impressive at all. btw at least one of the boxrec scores are probably wrong. It's doubtful all three judges had the exact same scores both times.

Layne had also beaten Satterfield, and most importantly Walcott in 1950. I don't think Louis would have much chance vs Walcott in 1950.
Stylewise, Layne was not that good defensively, not doubt about it. However, Louis was not throwing nearly the volume of punches as he once had. Occasionally he could land something, but could not followup at the end of his career. Louis only scored 3 knockouts in the previous 9 fights leading up to the Marciano fight.

As for LaStarza, I don't think he was slow at all. He was much faster than an old Louis. I think Louis would have a lot of trouble catching him.

Louis was more competitive yes. However, I don't think the Louis fights was one of Marciano's best performances. How well Marciano performed is how I am rating his best wins, maybe you are using different criteria. That Marciano could so completely dominate Layne was impressive.

[Ezzard]

I think the reason I (and some others) don't give Marciano a lot of credit for the 2nd Walcott fight is that appears that Walcott was not even trying. He didn't do anything offensively, and didn't get up after getting knocked down when it looked like he could have.

Spinks at least seemed to be trying against Tyson.

It's fair comment. But I'm not sure about the Spinks bit at all.

[Tuan_Jim]

Spinks tried punch with Tyson and walked into a bomb. He gets a baffling amount of criticism for that fight on the internet. If he was looking to dive, he would have done a Bruce Seldon. Spinks tried to fight, and got annihilated. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Ezzard]

My feeling is that Spinks, like Walcott, had no belief going into that fight and was there for the cheque.

[Tuan_Jim]

Spinks never seemed to radiate confidence and yet always, always, always went in there and got the job done, usually with super-violence.

For him to walk into the ring not believing he would win is a strange fit for his personality, given everything he had achieved in a long and decorated amateur and professional career at elite-level.

We don't know what was going on in his mind, but we do have the tape. And the tape shows a man fighting Mike Tyson and eating a massive shot. It's not a performance that in any way resembles Bruce Seldon's fleeing, grabbing and collapsing.

[Ambling Alp II]

He at least got up after the first knockdown, and tried to after the first 2nd. He may well have known that he had no chance against Tyson, but he was trying.

[jezzamundo]

1. Jersey Joe Walcott I
2. Ezzard Charles I
3. Archie Moore
4. Joe Louis
5. Rex Layne

[Clint Magnum]

The replies to this thread restore my faith in forums. Polite & respectful and most posters have a real knowledge of the sport and prepared to listen to reasoned disagreement.