"National Champion"

Amateur boxing & boxers, past & present
ramosboxingDOTcom
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"National Champion"

Postby ramosboxingDOTcom » 07 Mar 2010, 04:02

......remember the good ol'e days when being called a National Champion meant something? There's so many "national" tournaments now it's become a joke.......simliar to the pros, ABC's world titles.

These, to ME are actual NATIONAL TITLES that mean something.....

Junior Olympics
Silver Gloves
National PAL
US Championships

did I miss any?
hub city boxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby hub city boxing » 07 Mar 2010, 14:39

golden gloves
DCAmateurBoxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby DCAmateurBoxing » 07 Mar 2010, 15:33

ramosboxingDOTcom wrote:......remember the good ol'e days when being called a National Champion meant something? There's so many "national" tournaments now it's become a joke.......simliar to the pros, ABC's world titles.

These, to ME are actual NATIONAL TITLES that mean something.....

Junior Olympics
Silver Gloves
National PAL
US Championships

did I miss any?
I may even take the PAL out because of the numerous other tournaments a lot of top boxers have to hedge their bets on what tourneys will be the most well attended. It's hard for coaches, boxers and families to travel so they (We) have to select the ones that have the most value. Value to me means that it will be well attended and the boxers that I'm bringing will be able to box against the highest number AND most talented pool of boxers. Between the Jr. GG, Ringside, Title, Comcast and others--the PAL I think may not be as well attended as it was traditionally. IF it were up to the boxers, they would just to to the tourneys that give away belts :D I would only add National Golden Gloves to that list and put an asterisk by the PAL.

If there was a new tournament that was well attended by top boxers and had a good turn-out, I would say that tournament had value. Whether you want to call it a "national title" or not can be debated, but in my opinion a national title can only come from an advancing tournament where boxers at the local level can compete without a long distance travel. I know that invitationals pull from all over the country, but everyone isn't able to participate in those. I think because advancing tournaments start at the local level, you can say that the champions actually represent a national pool of boxers because it was easy for all eligible boxers to participate.
Jma05
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Jma05 » 07 Mar 2010, 22:19

usa boxing nationals such as......National Junior Olympics, Under-19 Nationals, Usa Senior Nationals....all the others i would say that i count as nationals is National Golden Gloves, National Junior Golden Gloves, National Silver Gloves, and agree with dcamatuerboxing about the National Pal, but only the junior side i believe that shouldnt be counted as a national, but i definently believe the National Pal for the mens should be counted as a national title.....so heres my list of what i consider a national.....i would not even count ringside worlds... alot of good competition but is not a national tournament....national pal was made to be a national tournament, ringside was made as just an invitational

usa senior nationals
under-19 nationals
national junior olympics
national silver gloves
national junior golden gloves
national pal (only open division)
Dennis
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Dennis » 07 Mar 2010, 22:41

How can some people not consider the National Golden Gloves a national title. It is very difficult to win. Heck some great boxers don't even make it to the National GG because they lose at their local/state/regional level. Adam Lopez, National PAL champ, lost in the Texas GG finals. National GG champ Tyrone Harris didn't get a chance to defend his title as he lost in the Michigan GG tourney.

Many other great amateurs never won NGG titles. Some won National PAL, U-19 and USA Nat'l Championships, but never the NGG.

The U-19 tourney isn't that well attended. I think it should be considered a National title, but it is like the National PAL in that it isn't always that well attended.
T Duquette
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby T Duquette » 07 Mar 2010, 23:00

I think its pretty obvious that the most important and prestigious national tournaments are The US Championships, The National GGs and the National PAL's in that order. I myself won the ringsides and i will be the first to tell u that while it was a good experience, when it comes down to it its really pretty meaningless... Eastern, Western trails ect, are also very important in an olympic year, though not more so than the previously mentioned big 3. A case can also be made for the u-19's and armed forces, though they are not accessible to everyone.
DCAmateurBoxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby DCAmateurBoxing » 07 Mar 2010, 23:16

Dennis wrote:How can some people not consider the National Golden Gloves a national title. It is very difficult to win. Heck some great boxers don't even make it to the National GG because they lose at their local/state/regional level. Adam Lopez, National PAL champ, lost in the Texas GG finals. National GG champ Tyrone Harris didn't get a chance to defend his title as he lost in the Michigan GG tourney.

Many other great amateurs never won NGG titles. Some won National PAL, U-19 and USA Nat'l Championships, but never the NGG.

The U-19 tourney isn't that well attended. I think it should be considered a National title, but it is like the National PAL in that it isn't always that well attended.
I think that you would agree that you have to provide criteria for a "national title". Taking it literally it would be any tournament that includes boxers from all over the country which is pretty much any invitational. If you add the criteria that it must be attended by top boxers, you open up a whole can of worms about defining the top boxers. I don't know who wouldn't consider the NGG a national tournament. It definitely is because of the sheer volume/level of boxers and the fact that it's advancing.

I think that anyone who is going to list the ones they think are national should define what they mean by that. It's really subjective but my main criteria is that it must be an advancing tournament or else it's just an invitation by definition.
DCAmateurBoxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby DCAmateurBoxing » 07 Mar 2010, 23:29

T Duquette wrote:I think its pretty obvious that the most important and prestigious national tournaments are The US Championships, The National GGs and the National PAL's in that order. I myself won the ringsides and i will be the first to tell u that while it was a good experience, when it comes down to it its really pretty meaningless... Eastern, Western trails ect, are also very important in an olympic year, though not more so than the previously mentioned big 3. A case can also be made for the u-19's and armed forces, though they are not accessible to everyone.
I just don't agree about the National PAL. It's an invitational, albeit one that is often competitive & that involves boxers from all over the country. If you consider the PAL (which is an invitational) a national tournament, why not the Ringside? Ringside had more boxers and more US Natl., Silver Gloves and JO champions (all advancing tourneys) attended Ringside than the PALs if you look at the entries totals.

I think that the trials/olympics goes without saying but I was thinking about the annual tourneys.

It's really a case of semantics but if a tourney is accessible to everyone, IMO those are national invitationals not national tournaments. Small difference in words but big in meaning to me. In order to participate in a national tournament, you had to earn your way there not fill out a form and pay $$. Let me say this too before someone jumps on me: I'm not saying that winning an invitational is not prestigious. A tournament win is a very good accomplishment for a boxer. A boxer could actually face better competition at an invitational also. But calling a tournament a national tournament can't be based on who goes. It has to be absolute. Also, I admit that someone could advance through one of national tournament without boxing many times. But those are exceptions. As a whole, invitationals are still not the same as advancing tournaments IMO. The advancement part of the tourney is a major part of me calling something and national tournament and calling someone a national champion--which IS the subject of this post.
Jamel
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Jamel » 08 Mar 2010, 00:10

IMO I beleive advancing tournaments are the ones that are worth anything because you have to WIN in order to get there unlike Ringside or PAL where anyone can just show up...
ramosboxingDOTcom
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby ramosboxingDOTcom » 08 Mar 2010, 01:27

I guess if you win the National PALs during the Olympic qualifer it would be considered a NATIONAL TITLE. The Under-19 has always had a poor turnout.
DCAmateurBoxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby DCAmateurBoxing » 08 Mar 2010, 01:54

ramosboxingDOTcom wrote:I guess if you win the National PALs during the Olympic qualifer it would be considered a NATIONAL TITLE. The Under-19 has always had a poor turnout.
Why do you say that? I'm assuming that it's because it can give you pts for USA rankings. But doesn't the Under-19 do that too? If the Ringside decides to stop allowing foreign-born boxers it could also be a ranking tournament as well. They are all still invitationals though. You pay, you box.

Does anyone even know exactly what the ranking tournaments are as of today?? USAB site only lists National Sr. Men's/Women's, National JO, Under-19 on the site. Since Golden Gloves didn't lead to berth in Natl., I don't think it gives you pts as of today, does it. It's a shame that this stuff isn't clearer from USAB and that it change change at a moments notice.
ramosboxingDOTcom
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby ramosboxingDOTcom » 08 Mar 2010, 02:02

The top boxers usually attend the first qualifer.
DCAmateurBoxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby DCAmateurBoxing » 08 Mar 2010, 02:54

ramosboxingDOTcom wrote:The top boxers usually attend the first qualifer.
Ok. But something just doesn't sit right with me that you get almost as many pts for losing to the 1st place finisher as you do for actually winning a bout. I guess it's all relative anyhow -- so it's fair. However, total # of boxers that participate in a tournament does affect the pts you get because winning 1st place at a tournament that has more than 16 boxers in a bracket is worth as many pts as a 1st AND a 2nd place finish at a tournament w/ less than 16 boxers in a bracket.

I'm not sure if they mean registered in a bracket or in the actual bracket because if you have 20+ entries in one division, a lot of tournaments would have to split the bracket and you could end up with less than 16 in each. However, the PAL, GGs and US Nationals have enough days to have more than 16 boxers in a bracket, so because of this those tournaments would be worth more potentially than other tournaments. It makes selecting which tournaments that you want to attend very interesting. Especially depending on what other invitationals USAB decides are ranking tournaments.
babyhuey
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby babyhuey » 08 Mar 2010, 04:48

DCAmateurBoxing wrote:
ramosboxingDOTcom wrote:......remember the good ol'e days when being called a National Champion meant something? There's so many "national" tournaments now it's become a joke.......simliar to the pros, ABC's world titles.

These, to ME are actual NATIONAL TITLES that mean something.....

Junior Olympics
Silver Gloves
National PAL
US Championships

did I miss any?
I may even take the PAL out because of the numerous other tournaments a lot of top boxers have to hedge their bets on what tourneys will be the most well attended. It's hard for coaches, boxers and families to travel so they (We) have to select the ones that have the most value. Value to me means that it will be well attended and the boxers that I'm bringing will be able to box against the highest number AND most talented pool of boxers. Between the Jr. GG, Ringside, Title, comcast and others--the PAL I think may not be as well attended as it was traditionally. IF it were up to the boxers, they would just to to the tourneys that give away belts :D I would only add National Golden Gloves to that list and put an asterisk by the PAL.

If there was a new tournament that was well attended by top boxers and had a good turn-out, I would say that tournament had value. Whether you want to call it a "national title" or not can be debated, but in my opinion a national title can only come from an advancing tournament where boxers at the local level can compete without a long distance travel. I know that invitationals pull from all over the country, but everyone isn't able to participate in those. I think because advancing tournaments start at the local level, you can say that the champions actually represent a national pool of boxers because it was easy for all eligible boxers to participate.


Comcast ? what tournament is that ?
Jma05
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Jma05 » 08 Mar 2010, 10:06

i think the pal is more of a national then the ringside. again it aint about where more of the competition is. its what the tournament is made for. the pal has been around more then 20 years as 1 of our 3 biggest nationals. thats the pals meaning. the ringside worlds is strictly a invitational. it was made for fun. so yes there is more competition at ringside but still its just an invitational. the pal even though isnt well atteneded as it use to be the purpose for the last 20 years is that it is a national since for the last 20 years it has been 1 of our 3 huge national tournaments and is still looked to tht today as the same....and yes not as well attended as it use to be but look look at the champions from every year and look at the fighters who do attempt it. the national pal doesnt have more competiton then the pal but open division wise it has harder competiton then the ringside does. all the top guys in the nation usually go to the pal. so its not like its dead. more better fighters go to the pal then the ringside in the open division
Jma05
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Jma05 » 08 Mar 2010, 10:20

2008 National Pal Finalist

fabian cervantes- nat. jo champ, usa finalist
bruno escalante- top rated amatuer
gabino saenz- top rated amatuer
roman morales- top rated amatuer
jamal james- top rated amatuer
errol spence- triple crown champ, u-19 champ, youth world quarterfinalist
javonte starks- usa champion
dennis douglin- national golden gloves champion
marcus brown- u-19 finalist
siju shabbazz- usa champion, national golden gloves champion
nicholas kisner- nat. jo champion, u-19 champion, usa finalist, youth world quarterfinalist
lenroy thompson- triple crown champion, eastern trials finalist, olympic trials participant
Jma05
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Jma05 » 08 Mar 2010, 10:40

09 participants

adam lopez- u-19 champ, youth world bronze
diego hurtado- top rated amatuer for past few years, olympic trials participant
oscar cantu- u-19 champ, nat. golden gloves bronze, usa quarterfinalist
victor passillas- multiple time national silver gloves champion
luis arias- cadet world silver, youth world bronze, usa champ, nat. golden gloves finalist, u-19 and j.o champ
chris pearson- top junior
siju shabbazz- usa champ, nat. golden gloves champ
frederick samuels- usa quarterfinalist
joshua temple- nat. j.o champ, u-19 champ
michael bissett- usa finalist
jovante charles- usa bronze, nat. golden gloves bronze
hasim rahman jr- u-19 finalist
bryant jennings- nat. golden gloves finalist
lenroy thompson- triple crown champ, eastern trials finalist, olympic trials participant
jesse hart- usa finalist
(08) eric fowler- usa bronze, nat. golden gloves champ (forgot to add in last)
DCAmateurBoxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby DCAmateurBoxing » 09 Mar 2010, 01:07

Jma05 wrote:2008 National Pal Finalist

fabian cervantes- nat. jo champ, usa finalist
bruno escalante- top rated amatuer
gabino saenz- top rated amatuer
roman morales- top rated amatuer
jamal james- top rated amatuer
errol spence- triple crown champ, u-19 champ, youth world quarterfinalist
javonte starks- usa champion
dennis douglin- national golden gloves champion
marcus brown- u-19 finalist
siju shabbazz- usa champion, national golden gloves champion
nicholas kisner- nat. jo champion, u-19 champion, usa finalist, youth world quarterfinalist
lenroy thompson- triple crown champion, eastern trials finalist, olympic trials participant
If I had Ringside's participants list, I would add it here but I don't but. . .

At the 2009 Ringside - these are just off the top of my head :D the boxers I recorded. Almost all of these boxers are just who I know made the finals. I took it easy on you and left off the top rated amateur. These are just the boxers with titles only. I'm sure in the 1000+ boxers left, there are many other top rated amateurs and champions. Just don't have the info. Also, I've seen Kisner, Saenz, Starks all at the Ringside too.

JOs
Shawn Simpons (natl JO champ)
Ray Ximenez (natl JO champ)
Luis Feliciano (natl JO finalist)
Damon Allen (natl JO finalist, natl JO champ)
Manny Rojas (natl JO champ 2Xs)
Jerry Odom (natl JO champ, Natl. JO finalist Under-19 finalist)
Lamar Richards (natl JO champ)
D'mitrius Ballard (Under 19 champ, Natl JO finalist 2xs)

Open
Ernie Garza (US Natl champ)
Steve Gaffard (US Natl champ)
Luis Arias (Under 19 champion, Natl GG finalist)
Alantez Fox (Under 19 champion)
Joshua Berrelleza (Under19 champion, natl Pal champ)
Lenroy Thompson (Natl GG Champ)
Javonta Charles (Natl. GG finalist)
Melissa Roberts (2x US Natl. Champ)
Queen Underwood (2x US Natl champ)
Tyreshia douglas (natl. PAL champ)
Last edited by DCAmateurBoxing on 09 Mar 2010, 01:17, edited 1 time in total.
DCAmateurBoxing
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby DCAmateurBoxing » 09 Mar 2010, 01:15

Jma05 wrote:i think the pal is more of a national then the ringside. again it aint about where more of the competition is. its what the tournament is made for. the pal has been around more then 20 years as 1 of our 3 biggest nationals. thats the pals meaning. the ringside worlds is strictly a invitational. it was made for fun. so yes there is more competition at ringside but still its just an invitational. the pal even though isnt well atteneded as it use to be the purpose for the last 20 years is that it is a national since for the last 20 years it has been 1 of our 3 huge national tournaments and is still looked to tht today as the same....and yes not as well attended as it use to be but look look at the champions from every year and look at the fighters who do attempt it. the national pal doesnt have more competiton then the pal but open division wise it has harder competiton then the ringside does. all the top guys in the nation usually go to the pal. so its not like its dead. more better fighters go to the pal then the ringside in the open division
What do you mean "what the tournament is made for?" History doesn't cut it in my book. The Ohio State Fair (sorry Iceman) has a lot of history too, but it's not a top tourney anymore. The DC Mayor's Cup has history, but it doesn't mean anything now. The PAL is an invitational too and the only reason the Ringside isn't a ranking tournament is that they wouldn't be able to have foreign-born boxers and would have to remove the word "World" which is how they get so many people to come in the first place. The Golden Gloves has been around forever too, but let's be real here a lot of the entries in the Golden Gloves at the local level are not the nations top boxers. there are a lot of club fighters who are 30 years old who train only for the gloves. At the nationals, different story--you see some of our best. The PAL is a great organization and that's not my debate. the topic of this post is "National Champion" who are the winners of "National Tournamnets" and I'm just throwing my two cents in as to what that means IMO. As far as the competition, I listed the list of participants just off the top of my head. Doesn't seem to shabby to me. :D
Jma05
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Jma05 » 09 Mar 2010, 08:06

have you ever thought maybe it doesnt have to do with your book. maybe it has to do with reality. theres was still more known boxers at the national pal then there was at the ringside. but yes there is more competition at the ringside certaintly, but in my opinion the harder competition and the harder thing to win would be the national pal. how can you count a tournament as a national title when its not even considred a national such as ringside. the pal is considerd a national title that proves to have good competition at it and has been considerd one of our top 3 nationals for the past 20 years. so im not stating my opinion or what i think should be done. im just stating the entire truth of the way it is
Dennis
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Dennis » 09 Mar 2010, 09:14

Here we go again. Jma05 states that his opinion is the truth and DC's opinion is just that "opinion". They are both opinions and in this case there can't be a right or wrong answer just opinions.

DC - some of your boxers listed did not win the titles you indicate or do as well as indicated. Ernie Garza was a semi-finalist at the USA's not the champ. Javonta Charles was a NGG semi-finalist not finalist. Steve Geffrard did not win the USA Nationals. These are all good boxers and do show that there were some quality boxers at the tournament.

As far as the NGG is concerned, I would say it is #1 or #2 in quality. Some areas have great local tournaments with lots of quality competition and former national champions don't even make it out of the local tournament. Examples are NY, Texas, Michigan, California, Pennsylvania, and so on. DC - you are correct that some boxers train only for the GG, which makes it a better tournament. Many more people enter the GG than the USA's. They are both top tournaments though and everyone should enter both. As far as the rest of the tournaments go, none of them can compare in terms of quality competition. (my opinion).
boxmel
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby boxmel » 09 Mar 2010, 12:18

To me, the top national tournaments are those that (1) lead to international competition and/or (2) give ranking points: U.S. Championships, National PAL, JO Nationals, U-19 and Golden Gloves. There are a lot of invitationals that are great for a boxer wanting more experience: Ringside, Desert Showdown, Black Gloves, Ohio State Fair, Mayor's Cup, Title, Gene Lewis, etc., but do not lead to anything more than being a champion of that tournament. If I were a boxer with the goal of making the U.S. Olympic team, competing at the U.S. Championships, National PAL and Golden Gloves would be a priority.
Jma05
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Jma05 » 09 Mar 2010, 12:51

so dennis your saying im wrong. national pal is not considered a national and that the ringside is not considerd a invitational?
Dennis
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Dennis » 09 Mar 2010, 13:31

National PAL uses the word national in its name. However, it is an open-invitational so anyone can show up and enter the tournament just like the Ringside tournament. The U-19 falls into this category as well except only boxers within a select 24 month age window can enter and the boxers must have at least 5 recorded bouts in which they competed (the open-class 5 bout requirement applies to the National PAL and other open tournaments as well).

National Golden Gloves, USA National Championships, National Junior Olympics and National Silver Gloves are the big national tournaments in which a boxer has to win a local and/or regional tournament in order to advance to the national tournament. These are typically more difficult to win and more prestigious.

As far as which tournaments are better, the USA National Championships leads to international competitions and training money so it is a big one. The National Golden Gloves is the most widely recognized by the general public and has great name recognition even within the boxing community. It has great competition, gives away scholarships to the finalists, gives away great awards including a beautiful championship ring, and can lead to international competition. In 2007, there were the World Golden Gloves which should be happening again either in 2010 or 2011. In 2009, select National Golden Gloves champs and runner-ups were selected to go to Great Britain for an international dual. In the past, USA Boxing has often selected National Golden Gloves champs for international trips/competitions.
Dennis
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Re: "National Champion"

Postby Dennis » 09 Mar 2010, 13:36

The National PAL - the fact that anyone can go an enter takes away from its luster. It is also not as well attended as the USA Nationals and Nat'l GG, but it is still an important ranking tournament. Winners of it have been selected to compete in international competitions so it is important.

Other than those three for senior boxers, I would say the next most important would be the U-19 as again it can lead to international competition. Then would come all the other tournaments such as Ringside, Comcast, Ohio State Fair, Arnold Classic, etc.

For Junior boxers, the big two are the National Junior Olympics and National Silver Gloves followed by the National Junior Golden Gloves and then all the other "national" junior tournaments including the National PAL, Ringside, Comcast, Ohio State Fair, Arnold Classic, etc.

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