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 Post subject: WBA Ordinary World Title
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009, 07:26 

Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Northern Wastelands
Hi,

I have a bit of a problem with the word "Ordinary". I'm not sure if the WBA calls it this. In particular I have a problem looking back at great fighters like Ali, Hagler and Leonard and reading that they only held the WBA Ordinary version.

I have no idea what is techically possible now that the WBA have whored their belt out. However, my preferred solution would involve having three WBA belts, representing the true state of affairs.

1. The WBA belt. For the time before they whored themselves.
2. The WBA Regular, or whatever it is called. "Ordinary" sounds so cheap.
3. The WBA Super or whatever the crap thing is called.

I think that would make the records more accurate.

cheers

conan


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009, 08:09 
conan_the_cribber wrote:
Hi,

I have a bit of a problem with the word "Ordinary". I'm not sure if the WBA calls it this. In particular I have a problem looking back at great fighters like Ali, Hagler and Leonard and reading that they only held the WBA Ordinary version.

I have no idea what is techically possible now that the WBA have whored their belt out. However, my preferred solution would involve having three WBA belts, representing the true state of affairs.

1. The WBA belt. For the time before they whored themselves.
2. The WBA Regular, or whatever it is called. "Ordinary" sounds so cheap.
3. The WBA Super or whatever the crap thing is called.

I think that would make the records more accurate.

cheers

conan


I agree.

not sure about the logistics of splitting it titles up to pre-"whoring" and post-"whoring" - but if it can be done it should.

Also I agree that it should be referred to as "regular" not "ordinary"


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2009, 05:26 

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Dudelange, Luxembourg
There are still 3 versions (for a few years now):

1. "Undisputed" or "Super world champion"
2. "Regular" world champion (or "Ordinary", as now called by BoxRec)
3. "Interim" world champion

Plus, there's the much-beloved "Champion in recess". :roll:


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2009, 18:04 

Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 6861
What is going on with great undisputed bantamweight champions Fighting Harada, Lionel rose and Ruben Olivares being called "ordinary' WBA Champions?

Why is there no straight out WBA champions in the 'boxrec' list?

Why is there no straight out 'world' title for before the alphabet gang started?

It is not the fighters who are 'ordinary.' :shame:


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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2009, 22:18 

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Berlin, Germany
The WBA calls the regular/ordinary title just "the WBA title". Since the inauguration of the super championship in 2000, this has been confusing as the super title has been another world title awarded by the WBA. Hence, the boxing public started calling the WBA title "the regular WBA title" to distinguish it from the super title.

The problem is that the WBA title from the pre super title era is the very same sort of world title that is now inofficially called regular/ordinary title. Nowadays, the regular/ordinary title can be considered worthless during periods in which a super champion is recognized besides (or above) the regular/ordinary champion. Whenever there is no super champion, though, the regular/ordinary champion is the WBA's highest champion in his weight class, which makes his reign as valuable as it would have been before the super champion idea was born.

How should this be dealt with? I think it is a good idea to distinguish super from regular/ordinary world titles as they represent two separate portions of the world title. Like my fellow panelists, I'd prefer "regular" to "ordinary", though, as the former has been the common term among the boxing community. Additionally, the latter seems to sound a little cheap in native speakers' ears.

Still, the champions of the past and even today's champions whose reigns are not devalued by the existence of super champions would have to settle for "regular" WBA titles. Thus, I propose returning to the simple term of "the WBA title" in spite of the fact that it sounds like a generic term including all sorts of WBA titles.

If the WBA regular title is competed for while the WBA also considers a super champion in the same weight class, this should be pointed out to show the regular title's diminished value at the time of the fight for it (for instance by an asterisk indicating an explanatory footnote, e.g. WBA heavyweight title*). In case the vacant WBA super title was won by a fighter who did not have to face the reigning regular champion to capture it, this should be pointed out in the same way.

I'd like the title search and the schedule page to list one choice for all sorts of the WBA title (and of other sanctioning bodies' titles for that matter) besides separate under choices for each of the three sorts (interim regular, regular, super) that exist in the case of the WBA.

As the terms for the other sanctioning bodies' world titles do not include the word "World", it should also be omitted in the case of the WBA world titles or added to the other sanctioning bodies' world titles.


Last edited by Emaster on 06 Apr 2010, 19:32, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2009, 12:49 

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Dudelange, Luxembourg
That's true, Margarito was upgraded on October 3, 2008, as was Nuzhnenko (from interim to ordinary).


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 Post subject: WBA title
PostPosted: 08 May 2009, 12:42 

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Berlin, Germany
Emaster wrote:
Thus, I propose returning to the simple term of "the WBA title" in spite of the fact that it sounds like a generic term including all sorts of WBA titles.
BoxRec has evidently come to the same conclusion :TU:.

The WBA super title is vacant prior to unification contests between the WBA regular champion and another holder of a major title:

2001-02-03: Kostya Tszyu vs. Sharmba Mitchell
2001-09-29: Bernard Hopkins vs. Felix Trinidad
2002-01-12: Acelino Freitas vs. Joel Casamayor
2002-09-14: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Fernando Vargas
2003-01-25: Ricardo Mayorga vs. Vernon Forrest
2003-03-15: Sven Ottke vs. Byron Mitchell
2003-11-01: Juan Manuel Marquez vs. Derrick Gainer
2005-04-02: Jean Marc Mormeck vs. Wayne Braithwaite
2005-11-26: Ricky Hatton vs. Carlos Maussa
2006-10-14: Mikkel Kessler vs. Markus Beyer
2007-04-28: Juan Diaz vs. Acelino Freitas
2008-05-17: Cristian Mijares vs. Alexander Munoz
2008-11-21: Celestino Caballero vs. Steve Molitor
2010-08-28: Giovani Segura vs. Ivan Calderon
2010-09-11: Yuriorkis Gamboa vs. Orlando Salido
2011-07-02: Wladimir Klitschko vs. David Haye
2011-07-23: Amir Khan vs. Zab Judah

If a champion who had already held the WBA regular title prior to a unification contest does not lose the fight, that title should be registered as at stake besides the (vacant) super title as another defense of the regular title is probably gained by not losing the bout:

2003-01-25: Ricardo Mayorga vs. Vernon Forrest
2005-04-02: Jean Marc Mormeck vs. Wayne Braithwaite
2006-10-14: Mikkel Kessler vs. Markus Beyer
2007-04-28: Juan Diaz vs. Acelino Freitas
2008-11-21: Celestino Caballero vs. Steve Molitor
2010-08-28: Giovani Segura vs. Ivan Calderon
2010-09-11: Yuriorkis Gamboa vs. Orlando Salido
2011-07-23: Amir Khan vs. Zab Judah

If a fight for the vacant WBA super title does not produce a winner so that the super title remains vacant, it should, besides other titles, still be recorded as at stake:

2003-05-17: Leonard Dorin vs. Paul Spadafora
2003-12-13: Rosendo Alvarez vs. Victor Burgos

Felix Trinidad was already registered as WBA super champion in the WBA ratings as of December 2000. His unification fight with then IBF light middleweight champion Fernando Vargas held on December 2, 2000 probably had the vacant super title at stake.


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