Ali vs Liston 2

[evrenb]

"I saw the punch. It couldn't crush a grape."

Jimmy Cannon

Archie Moore, Georgie Bemton and Don Dunphy said it was a fake.

To the unhappiness of Angelo Dundee and Ferdie Pacheco who hosted the show where they were showing films of various heavyweight champions.

Why do you need confirmation from those people? You can see clearly on the film what a deceptively effective punch it was yourself. Marciano thought it was a genuine shot
...so what?

[evrenb]

Why do you need confirmation from those people? You can see clearly on the film what a deceptively effective punch it was yourself. Marciano thought it was a genuine shot
...so what?[/quote]

Are you telling me what I can see?

Are you telling George Chuvalo, Flowd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Archie Moore, Georgie Benton and Don Dunphy what they can see?[/quote]

Firstly, I have no idea who Flowd Patterson is. Secondly, getting opinions from people who watched it live can be extremely misleading as it was totally unexpected and the punch so quick. Much like when Hopkins polished off De La Hoya with a body punch ; many didn't see what an effective punch it was. Replay helped us understand what a devastating punch it was. Thirdly I am not telling you what you can see because you didn't state anyway and you could use that comment on a billion subjects ; you are just trying to be clever.

I tell you what..you watch it and describe to us what you see...I look forward to your comments. Could Liston really react that quick if he were faking it? I await in anticipation of your reply with perhaps a weighted response rather than trying to make scant, clever retort with little substance.

[evrenb]

Firstly, I have no idea who Flowd Patterson is. Secondly, getting opinions from people who watched it live can be extremely misleading as it was totally unexpected and the punch so quick. Much like when Hopkins polished off De La Hoya with a body punch ; many didn't see what an effective punch it was. Replay helped us understand what a devastating punch it was. Thirdly I am not telling you what you can see because you didn't state anyway and you could use that comment on a billion subjects ; you are just trying to be clever.

I tell you what..you watch it and describe to us what you see...I look forward to your comments. Could Liston really react that quick if he were faking it? I await in anticipation of your reply with perhaps a weighted response rather than trying to make scant, clever retort with little substance.[/quote]

I have watched it.

It was a fake.

Just as George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Archie Moore, Georgie Benton and Don Dunphy said.

Does evenreb really really think that replays did not exist in 1965?

Stick to pointing out typing mistakes evenreb. There your talent lies.[/quote]

As fake as you with that garbage answer..

[Giancarlo]

Are you telling me what I can see?

Are you telling George Chuvalo, Flowd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Archie Moore, Georgie Benton and Don Dunphy what they can see?

Hi granberry.

Welcome back.

I wasn't sure if it was you at first but now I am.

It's the barely concealed anger and the seething bitterness that gives you away every time old fella.

[Giancarlo]

Are you telling me what I can see?

Are you telling George Chuvalo, Flowd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Archie Moore, Georgie Benton and Don Dunphy what they can see?

Hi granberry.

Welcome back.

I wasn't sure if it was you at first but now I am.

It's the barely concealed anger and the seething bitterness that gives you away every time old fella.

Giancarlo is accusing Jimmy Cannon, George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Archie Moore, Georgie Benton and Don Dunphy of "seething bitterness" because they said Ali-Liston II was a fake?

No granberry, I'm accusing you of whining like an old drunk.

[Giancarlo]

I took glance at your posts, Giancarlo.

They are all filled with petty bickering with one poster or another.

None have anything to do with the subject of boxing.

Let's call you the thread poster filled with "barely concealed anger and the seething bitterness."

Ah granberry, it's great to have you back.

You still handing out cartons of orange juice to young fellows you've taken a fancy to?

[man]

i think it is hard to feel for sonny on this one.
it is a boxing match and he is a huge man. if
he wants to get up and continue then he will
do so. but since it is a boxing match he ... has
to. i do think the knock down was genuine and
a weird set of reasons made liston prefer to go
out in shame rather than on his shield.

the punch was genuine, the rest was a farce.
you cannot say "no mas" and you cannot stay
down just because you feel like it. sad thing
that there are two great boxers, who have a
bad spot on their record despite being great
and brave and everything.

[Caractacus]

Fight film collector Jimmy Jacobs made a film showing boxing referees counting over a fallen fighter in heavyweight championship fights throughout the history of boxing.

In each film the referee shoved his fingers close to the downed fighter's face to indicate the count

and also screamed the count in the fighter's face.

Then Jacobs showed the 2nd Liston-Ali fight, where referee Jersey Joe Walcott never counted over the fallen fighter.

According to some posters here, Jacobs had no right to do that.

Is this somewhere on youtube?

[evrenb]

Fight film collector Jimmy Jacobs made a film showing boxing referees counting over a fallen fighter in heavyweight championship fights throughout the history of boxing.

In each film the referee shoved his fingers close to the downed fighter's face to indicate the count

and also screamed the count in the fighter's face.

Then Jacobs showed the 2nd Liston-Ali fight, where referee Jersey Joe Walcott never counted over the fallen fighter.

According to some posters here, Jacobs had no right to do that.

What is your point? That the referee hashed up?? We aren't arguing that - it was a complete hash up. The punch that put Liston there...I think it was 100% legit.

[evrenb]

Fight film collector Jimmy Jacobs made a film showing boxing referees counting over a fallen fighter in heavyweight championship fights throughout the history of boxing.

In each film the referee shoved his fingers close to the downed fighter's face to indicate the count

and also screamed the count in the fighter's face.

Then Jacobs showed the 2nd Liston-Ali fight, where referee Jersey Joe Walcott never counted over the fallen fighter.

According to some posters here, Jacobs had no right to do that.

What is your point? That the referee hashed up?? We aren't arguing that - it was a complete hash up. The punch that put Liston there...I think it was 100% legit.

The punches that Mike DeJohn and Cleveland Williams hit Liston with were 100% legit.

Either one hit much harder than Ali.

That is utter bullsh1t - Frazier hit a lot harder than Ali but couldn't put a dent in Bonavena while Ali ko'd him. No one could put a dent in Foreman where Ali and Young floored him....that is a bullsh1t answer and you know it - you are speaking through obvious hatred rather than using any other faculties you may have.

[BoxBuzz]

That is utter bullsh1t - Frazier hit a lot harder than Ali but couldn't put a dent in Bonavena while Ali ko'd him. No one could put a dent in Foreman where Ali and Young floored him....that is a bullsh1t answer and you know it - you are speaking through obvious hatred rather than using any other faculties you may have.

Hysterical evren and his buddy gincarlo trot out their "bullshit and hatred" accusations routine whenever anyone disagrees with them.

Very impressive, evren.

Hello Lorenzo1791! May I call you LoZo?....just for fun? How's your bother Bo?

Why is that Giancarlo immediately shows up when you drop in?

Anyhow....share your opinion, but don't over react, I want peace here......and I'm willing to get violent to preserve something so precious.


I'm going to advise all to keep with the rules.....or it's three times and your out in the ol' ball game.

Share your opinions all you like, but stay civil.

If you choose to be truculent, your stay will be truncated.


And while we are on the subject of opinions, get some good thick glasses and check out that punch. Not the second one that flies over Liston's head to nowhere....you know...the one your always talkin' about. And scope out Liston's forward motion and inability to cope with gravity for a moment........and delve into the wonderful world of physics!....(which has a relevant role in the real world.) IF you take my advice, you'll come away with a fresh new appreciation of that moment in time.

[BoxBuzz]

I don't see anyone else here...must be you I'm askin'.

Think he's part bloodhound?

[Ambling Alp II]

Just to play the devils advocate:

Ali was way past it when he fought Spinks, Shavers, Evangelista, and Young.
He did knockdown Patterson, London, Mildenberger, Williams, Folley, Foreman, Wepner etc.

Ray Robinson had many fights where he didn't knock his opponent down. Yet he knocked Fullmer out with one punch. Fullmer had a great chin.
Rahman seldom stopped anyone with one punch. Yet he knocked out Lewis with one shot. Lewis was only knocked down one other time in his entire career.
Michael Nunn took out Kalambay with one punch. Nunn had several fights where he never knocked an opponent down. Kalambay had a good chin.

It happens. Once in a blue moon a fighter can land a good or even great shot that lands right on the button. Sometimes the opponent never saw it coming.

Not saying that something funny wasn't going on in regard to Ali-Liston II. However just the fact that he did not down someone in another fight and knocked down Liston is not by itself much proof.

[BoxBuzz]

BoxBuzz,

In the very same “wonderful world of physics!”

Muhammed Ali fought novice Leon Spinks twice, Ken Norton three times, Henry Cooper twice, George Chuvalo twice, Joe Frazier three times, Joe Bugner twice, Ernie Terrell for 15 rounds, Ernie Shavers for 15 rounds, Jim Young for 15 rounds, Alfredo Evangalista for 15 rounds, Doug Jones for 10 rounds

without scoring a single knockdown

(much less a 1st round knockout with a single punch),.

The ways of “the wonderful world of physics!” are strange, aren't they.
.

Boxbuzz wrote:

And while we are on the subject of opinions, get some good thick glasses and check out that punch. Not the second one that flies over Liston's head to nowhere....you know...the one your always talkin' about. And scope out Liston's forward motion and inability to cope with gravity for a moment........and delve into the wonderful world of physics!....(which has a relevant role in the real world.) IF you take my advice, you'll come away with a fresh new appreciation of that moment in time.

Sir LoZo......you are blind, best to trust others who have sight, when crossing the street.


Your examples are pure nonsense. He fought George Foreman once and put him down once. Also Meaningless.


It's not WHO....it's WHAT TRANSPIRED in a specific collision under a very specific set of circumstances which can be measured at this point.


So......stop being Granberrian, and get the cool shoe shine.

[yancey]

BoxBuzz,

In the very same “wonderful world of physics!”

Muhammed Ali fought novice Leon Spinks twice, Ken Norton three times, Henry Cooper twice, George Chuvalo twice, Joe Frazier three times, Joe Bugner twice, Ernie Terrell for 15 rounds, Ernie Shavers for 15 rounds, Jim Young for 15 rounds, Alfredo Evangalista for 15 rounds, Doug Jones for 10 rounds

without scoring a single knockdown

(much less a 1st round knockout with a single punch),.

The ways of “the wonderful world of physics!” are strange, aren't they.
.

Boxbuzz wrote:

And while we are on the subject of opinions, get some good thick glasses and check out that punch. Not the second one that flies over Liston's head to nowhere....you know...the one your always talkin' about. And scope out Liston's forward motion and inability to cope with gravity for a moment........and delve into the wonderful world of physics!....(which has a relevant role in the real world.) IF you take my advice, you'll come away with a fresh new appreciation of that moment in time.

Sir LoZo......you are blind, best to trust others who have sight, when crossing the street.


Your examples are pure nonsense. He fought George Foreman once and put him down once. Also Meaningless.


It's not WHO....it's WHAT TRANSPIRED in a specific collision under a very specific set of circumstances which can be measured at this point.


So......stop being Granberrian, and get the cool shoe shine.

Buzz, to be honest, I think you are evading the point Lorenzo brings up.

It is indeed mighty strange that Ali can go all those rounds with all those names Lorenzo mentioned and failed to score a knockdown. Heck, he could only put the crippled Patterson once only very briefly in their first fight.

Yet with Liston, who was quite a bit more rugged than most of the fighters Lorenzo listed, a knockdown occurs on an extremely questionable punch, putting Liston down for well past a 10 count.

Again, all I am interested in is the truth. The way Liston cushioned himself as he fell, then rolling smoothly to his back, followed by his ridiculous collapse after getting to one knee, puts the whole thing, including the punch, into strong disrepute.

[Caractacus]

Do anyone here think that the knockdown in Lewiston Maine was more convincing then this knockdown of Sonny Liston here?
(at about beginning 8:55 of this clip) Man,that guy there seemed to have had a pretty good right too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNxMkmjcf2Q

[evrenb]

Suggestion for BoxBuzz:

Change the board rules to state

“Anyone who thinks the 2nd Ali-Liston fight was a fake is not allowed to post on boxrec.”

Further suggestion:

Change the name of the website to AliFansOnlyrec.com

I think it's fair, of course, for everyone to have their opinion. I don't doubt that Liston milked it when he went down but I believe the punch put him down genuinely. That's my opinion. Talking about punchers etc is a bunch of mumbo jumbo nonsense and you know it. Are Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper heavier punchers than Shavers and Lyle and Foreman and Norton?? No?? Surprise they knocked Ali down ?? Your argument is one of the biggest bunch of dog turd garbage I have ever read. . For someone who cannot even spell Ali's name I think it rich that you can form a weighted opinion. Garbage.

[evrenb]

I'm going to advise all to keep with the rules.....or it's three times and your out in the ol' ball game.

Share your opinions all you like, but stay civil.

If you choose to be truculent, your stay will be truncated.

Your argument is one of the biggest bunch of dog turd garbage I have ever read. . For someone who cannot even spell Ali's name I think it rich that you can form a weighted opinion. Garbage.

Buzz,

Is evren free to write his "dog turd garbage" because he is an Ali fan?[/quote

Explain to everyone then why what I say is garbage...explain your theory about 'non punchers' and punchers....you add nothing and are a joke troll.

[Giancarlo]

lorenzo / granberry / terap is a troll but he's our troll.

We should cherish him.

Not in a bizarre 'handing out cartons of orange juice to young lads' way but in a 'I too will be old and senile one day' way.

[Ambling Alp II]

Just to play the devils advocate:

Ali was way past it when he fought Spinks, Shavers, Evangelista, and Young.

Do your excuses go both ways?

HOW FAR 'past it' were Patterson, Cleveland Williams, Folley. Archie Moore, etc. when they fought Ali.

Muhammed Ali "knocked out" Sonny Liston with a single 'punch' in the first round. ?

Ali never scored a knockdown, mush less a knockout in the first round of any other title fight he had.

I don't think Patterson was past it all in their first fight. Williams and Folley were past their best but still had something left.
Moore was past it but I didn't mention him.
London, Mildenberger, Foreman, and Wepner were in their primes.

[Giancarlo]

lorenzo / granberry / terap is a troll but he's our troll.

We should cherish him.

Not in a bizarre 'handing out cartons of orange juice to young lads' way but in a 'I too will be old and senile one day' way.

Has giancarlo EVER written a post that touched on the subject of boxing?

Hey! I wasn't the guy who made up the story about trawling around fight venues looking for young lads to offer cartons of orange juice to.

[elmersalsa]

Suggestion for BoxBuzz:

Change the board rules to state

“Anyone who thinks the 2nd Ali-Liston fight was a fake is not allowed to post on boxrec.”

Further suggestion:

Change the name of the website to AliFansOnlyrec.com

Welcome back, Gran!

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo never posts about the subject of boxing, and his posts always have a poofter tinge.

Correct me if I'm wrong granberry, but wasn't it you who boasted of cruising fight venues looking for young lads who might like to sample your juice?

And you claim my posts have a homo-erotic flavour?

[Controversial]

Just my opinion here, I know there are cases where non-punchers have scored one punch KOs over durable opponents but the difference is a solid punch is normally landed. I'm struggling to recall any other world class fighter being knocked out in 1 round by a single innocuous looking punch from someone not known for his punching power. I don't doubt a punch was landed but the whole knockdown, rolling around etc.. just doesn't fit. That particular situation is so rare in boxing it makes it look even more suspect.

[BoxBuzz]

BoxBuzz,

In the very same “wonderful world of physics!”

Muhammed Ali fought novice Leon Spinks twice, Ken Norton three times, Henry Cooper twice, George Chuvalo twice, Joe Frazier three times, Joe Bugner twice, Ernie Terrell for 15 rounds, Ernie Shavers for 15 rounds, Jim Young for 15 rounds, Alfredo Evangalista for 15 rounds, Doug Jones for 10 rounds

without scoring a single knockdown

(much less a 1st round knockout with a single punch),.

The ways of “the wonderful world of physics!” are strange, aren't they.
.

Boxbuzz wrote:

And while we are on the subject of opinions, get some good thick glasses and check out that punch. Not the second one that flies over Liston's head to nowhere....you know...the one your always talkin' about. And scope out Liston's forward motion and inability to cope with gravity for a moment........and delve into the wonderful world of physics!....(which has a relevant role in the real world.) IF you take my advice, you'll come away with a fresh new appreciation of that moment in time.

Sir LoZo......you are blind, best to trust others who have sight, when crossing the street.


Your examples are pure nonsense. He fought George Foreman once and put him down once. Also Meaningless.


It's not WHO....it's WHAT TRANSPIRED in a specific collision under a very specific set of circumstances which can be measured at this point.


So......stop being Granberrian, and get the cool shoe shine.

Buzz, to be honest, I think you are evading the point Lorenzo brings up.

It is indeed mighty strange that Ali can go all those rounds with all those names Lorenzo mentioned and failed to score a knockdown. Heck, he could only put the crippled Patterson once only very briefly in their first fight.

Yet with Liston, who was quite a bit more rugged than most of the fighters Lorenzo listed, a knockdown occurs on an extremely questionable punch, putting Liston down for well past a 10 count.

Again, all I am interested in is the truth. The way Liston cushioned himself as he fell, then rolling smoothly to his back, followed by his ridiculous collapse after getting to one knee, puts the whole thing, including the punch, into strong disrepute.

Have you ever heard of the perfect storm? There were a lot of odd things that lined up pretty well for that. It just was what it was....AND Liston did recover and was ready to fight.....it's not like Liston was KO'd into unconsciousness.......I mean who would have thought that Cooper could put Ali down given Ali's (later to be recognized,) granite chin? Shyt happens. Ughh....please see the Zora knockdown......and give us your take on that. I mean it....what happened there?

Wanna know another major source of inexplicability within our universe? How is it that Ali knocks out Bonavena and finishes him, when Frazier could not do it? Again...Shyt happens. Sometimes it goes against predictability.