Joe Frazier v. Ken Norton

[BoxBuzz]

It is clear that Ali did anywhere from pretty well, to very well against both Kenny and Joe

It IS NOT CLEAR to anyone but YOU!!!! and other blind people such as there may be.. That's the FIRST time I ever heard that Ali did well to VERY well against Norton... Ali beat the crap out of Frazier in their 1st and their 3rd fight... He grabbed and held all night and didn't allow Smokin' to do crap in the boring assed rematch...and he stopped Joe in the rubber match... So I'd say he did very well beating up Frazier.

Norton shattered Ali's jaw in their first fight and beat the crap out of him. Norton dominated the fight and if you don't think so you're nuts.. Norton landed better and harder punches in the rematch.. somehow he lost the decision.. Ali's friend and right hand man Bundini Brown walked over to Norton after the rematch and said "You won the fight Norton. They robbed you." This was caught on TV.. The TV people even talked to Norton and said, "Ali's friend Bundini Brown just said you won the fight." Norton smiled wryly and agreed with the assessment. Most think Norton was a clear winner of the 3rd fight.. Norton barely had a mark on him after all 3 encounters. Frazier looked like a Halloween mask after 2 of them.

Well, the Ali-Norton fights were competitive, and once you get some good thick glasses and take another look, you'll be better informed.

According to Ali, Norton broke Ali's Jaw early on in that first fight, you know it, I know it and Bob Dole knows it. So Ali did pretty well when you factor that in.

A fight that he lost, but gave a very good accounting of himself.

And of course he won the other two according to the judges and referee. I know I know, they were close and a lot of people think Kenny won them both.

The fights were competitive, neither were runaway beatings, except in your over active imagination.

Now you just go watch yourself some fight films, read some good boxing books, and never ever stop learning about this sport that obviously excites you.

I know and trust, that sooner or later, after you've taken the time to carefully peruse some top notch boxing reference information, you are going to drop back in on us someday. And I have

a hunch that you will eventually contribute informed opinions, (on this very forum), that will be outstandingly credibull, viabull, dependabull, decipherabull, and plausibull.

But in these debut weeks, we seem to be witnessing basic-bull, with a generous side of bulloney.

[Kalan]

Well, the Ali-Norton fights were competitive, and once you get some good thick glasses and take another look, you'll be better informed

YOU not only need Lasik surgery on both eyes BoxBuzz.. but may you need a brain transplant.. Ali was a 10:1 favorite and expected to DESTROY Norton... NOT get the crap beat out of him... get his jaw busted and wired shut for months... by a head first no-skills swinger, no less... because Norton previously got hammered around the ring by a skinny neophyte... YES, Norton was knocked onto his right ear and ICED -- by a skinny 188-pound novice with 12 wins named Jose Luis Garcia... That's why Ali selected Norton as an opponent you see, because he was a wide open target.. Foreman DID very well with Norton because he was EXPECTED to smash Norton quickly ... and he DID!!!

And let's look at this another way... Martin Murray was 29-1-1 - and In his 2 previous Middleweight Title shots before GGG, most people thought Murry won his "draw" with Felix Sturm and Germany and his sole previous loss to Sergio Martinez in Argentina, where he scored 2 knockdowns but somehow lost the decision... Now If Murray won 3 or 4 rounds off Golovkin, or God forbid he went the distance, then Golovkin would had been blasted as a massive hype job... In fact GGG scored the only 3 knockdowns Murray ever suffered, won 10 of 11 rounds, and stopped Murray for the 1st time in his career and some people still said THAT fight proved he's a hype job... You can't please haters.

But Ali's showing against Norton??? A chinny head-first swinger who gets blown out??? Come ON be serious Buzz!!!! That defeat was SHOCKING!!!

[hhaehre]

Frazier couldn't possibly back Norton up... Joe wasn't big or strong enough... Norton had 4 inches and at least 20 pounds on Frazier once you got the fat off.. Norton beat on Ali more effectively than Frazier did while taking much less punishment... The clumsy and inept Joe Bugner laid more big punches on Joe Frazier than he laid on Marvis Frazier... After Marvis beat Joe Bugner his dad Smokin' was so impressed he said, "Marvis did great with Joe Bugner, a great big Heavyweight. He's ready for Larry Holmes right now." ... Marvis Frazier was 10-0 ... Larry Holmes was 44-0.

Do you feel it's relevant to compare the young prime Bugner of the Joe Frazier fight with the fat out of shape Bugner 10 years later? Also, how is Joe's view on his sons chances against Holmes in any way relevant to whether Joe would beat Norton?
If you work real hard at it I'm sure you can somehow factor Ali's loss to Berbick and Frazier's draw with Cummings into your argument.

[Kalan]

Bugner was more inept at 23 than he was at 33, when he fought Marvis... And Bugner was younger than Larry Holmes who Marvis fought next.

[hhaehre]

Bugner was more inept at 23 than he was at 33, when he fought Marvis... And Bugner was younger than Larry Holmes who Marvis fought next.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bugner was better vs. Marvis than he was against Joe? Bugner had been a pro for almost 6 years and had close to 50 fights when he faced Joe, including bouts vs Ali, Cooper, Middleton and Blin. So yeah he was real inept, a novice really. The 3 year retirement, the extra 10 years and 16 lbs of fat really made him great against Marvis.

[Counter-puncher]

Just. Fucken. Ignore.

[Kalan]

Bugner was more inept at 23 than he was at 33, when he fought Marvis... And Bugner was younger than Larry Holmes who Marvis fought next.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bugner was better vs. Marvis than he was against Joe? Bugner had been a pro for almost 6 years and had close to 50 fights when he faced Joe, including bouts vs Ali, Cooper, Middleton and Blin. So yeah he was real inept, a novice really. The 3 year retirement, the extra 10 years and 16 lbs of fat really made him great against Marvis.

Of course he was.., Joe Bugner was a very young kid when he first faced Ali and Frazier at 22 and 23 ... It's like Canelo Alvarez.. He had about 45 fights when he faced Mayweather but he was a kid. Mayweather was 36 and had mature skills. He and flummoxed the kid. Not that Bugner was ever a good boxer, but he hadn't fought anyone very good to where he was absorbing a lot of lessons.. Cooper, Middleton, and Blin??? Those guys were terrible.. After Bug fought a few guys like Mac Foster, Jimmy Ellis, Ron Lyle, and Earnie Shavers, he knocked off a few more of the rough edges.. So along with the greater maturity he had at 33, he knew a lot more when he faced Marvis.. Unfortunately for him Marvis was a fairly elusive boxer for somebody with only 9 fights and Bugner just couldn't hit him..

Although Marvis obviously didn't have the chin, physical toughness, or strength of his father, he was a better and sharper boxer and a better thinker for his limited experience. I don't suppose he could ever have become Heavyweight Champion, but how would you know for sure??? The way Marvis was matched up with Holmes and Tyson made trainers like Bill Slayton shake their heads.. Usually dads match their sons TOO carefully when they have 10 or 17 fights -- but Joe Frazier went way to the other extreme... Marvis looked sharp and smooth, but obviously needed more development and attention before facing guys of that caliber ... I don't know exactly why he quit boxing.

[Dixonian]

Always love the tales from the gym stories. One guy always wipes the floor with the other guy. It's never that two guys fought on relatively even terms without anything particularly interesting happening.

[Caractacus]

Ken Norton became a sparring partner to Joe Frazier around late 1969/early 1970 when Frazier was preparing to fight Jimmy Ellis.
Frazier paid Norton 500 dollars a week and if my math is correct,that would be about approx. 2,000 dollars a month)
( a dollar went really far back in 1970).
Norton would be a sparring partner to Frazier over the next two years.

[Kalan]

Always love the tales from the gym stories. One guy always wipes the floor with the other guy. It's never that two guys fought on relatively even terms without anything particularly interesting happening.

If NOTHING happened it was an every day sparring session... There's nothing to talk about but damned boring sht... If a big name gets iced, or there's a war going on, the other boxers and trainers stop what they're doing and watch like spectators ogling a street fight. And it's not like Vegas. What happens in the gym doesn't stay in the gym. If you're sparring with one of the biggest name World Champs in Boxing and suddenly realize you can beat the crap out of him any time you want??? You better taper way back real quick and let him look good -- or you're not going to have a job. If they figure this out before you do you'll be handed your "walking papers." ... They say something like "We really like you and you're going to do really well in this business. Unfortunately we're flying more sparring partners in and these bastards cut back on our training expenses. We may need you for our next camp and we won't lose your number. Stay in touch." ... Yeah right!

Sometimes you can fool somebody into fighting you. George Foreman sparred with Boone Kirkman and let him win by a mile. Pretty soon he had an easy fight against a slow, unskilled, very hittable, but hype-job Heavyweight. The result shocked Kirkman and his unsuspecting manager Jack Hurley. Foreman wasn't a clever boxer, but he was one of the smartest businessmen, operators, and manipulators in the history of the game.

[Caractacus]

Ken Norton became a sparring partner to Joe Frazier around late 1969/early 1970 when Frazier was preparing to fight Jimmy Ellis.
Frazier paid Norton 500 dollars a week and if my math is correct,that would be about approx. 2,000 dollars a month)
( a dollar went really far back in 1970).
Norton would be a sparring partner to Frazier over the next two years.

Actually the first time Norton became a sparring partner to Frazier was in 1969 when Frazier was preparing to fight Jerry Quarry.
The first time he spaared Frazier hit Norton with a left that buckled Norton's knees and made him go numb.
(Norton had said he was partying the night before).
The last time Norton sparred with Frazier was in Kingston Jamacia (January 1973) about a week before the fight with George Foreman.
Norton cuffed Frazier the first day and again the second day
and Norton told Eddie Futch that Frazier didnt seem to have the drive anymore.

[Kalan]

That sounds about right... Norton was certainly was getting bigger and stronger ... and handling Frazier with greater ease than ever.

[hhaehre]

Bugner was more inept at 23 than he was at 33, when he fought Marvis... And Bugner was younger than Larry Holmes who Marvis fought next.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bugner was better vs. Marvis than he was against Joe? Bugner had been a pro for almost 6 years and had close to 50 fights when he faced Joe, including bouts vs Ali, Cooper, Middleton and Blin. So yeah he was real inept, a novice really. The 3 year retirement, the extra 10 years and 16 lbs of fat really made him great against Marvis.

Of course he was.., Joe Bugner was a very young kid when he first faced Ali and Frazier at 22 and 23 ... It's like Canelo Alvarez.. He had about 45 fights when he faced Mayweather but he was a kid. Mayweather was 36 and had mature skills. He and flummoxed the kid.

I succumb to your awesome logic. Only two fights after he flummoxed Marvis, Bugner gained another five pounds and flummoxed the mighty Steffen Tangstad. You'd have to be a tall basketball player to beat Bugner at this point.

[Caractacus]

Ken Norton became a sparring partner to Joe Frazier around late 1969/early 1970 when Frazier was preparing to fight Jimmy Ellis.
Frazier paid Norton 500 dollars a week and if my math is correct,that would be about approx. 2,000 dollars a month)
( a dollar went really far back in 1970).
Norton would be a sparring partner to Frazier over the next two years.

Actually the first time Norton became a sparring partner to Frazier was in 1969 when Frazier was preparing to fight Jerry Quarry.
The first time he spaared Frazier hit Norton with a left that buckled Norton's knees and made him go numb.
(Norton had said he was partying the night before).
The last time Norton sparred with Frazier was in Kingston Jamacia (January 1973) about a week before the fight with George Foreman.
Norton cuffed Frazier the first day and again the second day
and Norton told Eddie Futch that Frazier didnt seem to have the drive anymore.

In June 1969,Ken Norton was still 25 years old with a 9-0-0 record.
In January 1973, Norton was 29 years old with a 29-1-0 record.

[BoxBuzz]

Hold the phone again....

Are you talking to yourself here?

[Kalan]

Are you seriously suggesting that Bugner was better vs. Marvis than he was against Joe? Bugner had been a pro for almost 6 years and had close to 50 fights when he faced Joe, including bouts vs Ali, Cooper, Middleton and Blin. So yeah he was real inept, a novice really. The 3 year retirement, the extra 10 years and 16 lbs of fat really made him great against Marvis.

Of course he was.., Joe Bugner was a very young kid when he first faced Ali and Frazier at 22 and 23 ... It's like Canelo Alvarez.. He had about 45 fights when he faced Mayweather but he was a kid. Mayweather was 36 and had mature skills. He and flummoxed the kid.

I succumb to your awesome logic. Only two fights after he flummoxed Marvis, Bugner gained another five pounds and flummoxed the mighty Steffen Tangstad. You'd have to be a tall basketball player to beat Bugner at this point.

Bugner had a bad habit of losing to anybody who was any good... and some guys who were FKing TERRIBLE!!! ... So it's not surprising that he lost to Marvis Frazier or his dad... Bugner had very good height, weight, reach, and chin which enabled him to win a few marches with bloody terrible fighters... Hey, but if he could lose to Jack Bodell he could lose to Steffen Tangstad, who was a World Heavyweight Title Challenger... wow

[Kalan]

Interesting thing about Steffen Tagstad... He had 2 career losses in 28 fights... If he hadn't fought Anders Eklund people might mistake him for a good heavyweight.

[hhaehre]

Interesting thing about Steffen Tagstad... He had 2 career losses in 28 fights... If he hadn't fought Anders Eklund people might mistake him for a good heavyweight.

True, if they just looked up his record on Boxrec and didn't bother to watch any of his fights

[Kalan]

But a lot of these "experts" don't know what they're looking at anyway when they watch a fight... all they know is if you won or lost, not if you're any good

[BoxBuzz]

But a lot of these "experts" don't know what they're looking at anyway when they watch a fight... all they know is if you won or lost, not if you're any good

Well it is a challenge to consider just how great the very skillful boxer was after he won the first five rounds but lies unconcious at the hands of the crude puncher. So a lot of folks just give credit where credit Is due vs making excuses for the "better" boxer.

[Kalan]

Well...If you're the better boxer It's very unlikely that you're going to get knocked out... but it happens... The thing is, did you get knocked out because you had your head up your ass like Lewis vs Rahman??? ... Or did you get knocked out because you do a lot of things wrong and just lack the skills and versatility to deal with this particular opponent, like in Norton vs Foreman.

A lot of "experts" will not be able to tell the difference.

[hhaehre]

But a lot of these "experts" don't know what they're looking at anyway when they watch a fight... all they know is if you won or lost, not if you're any good

You're absolutely correct. Hell I can remember reading on these very pages not too long ago some clueless moron putting down Shavers based on his last fight at age 50. Talk about just reading the stats. It's a good thing we have guys like you here who really knows this stuff.

[Kalan]

Right... Folks should be more concerned with Shavers' KO losses in his prime...like when he was getting KO'd by Ron Stander, Jerry Quarry, and Ron Lyle.

[Counter-puncher]

#sarcasm detectors currently undergoing maintenance#

[Kalan]

Counter Puncher's Touché Detector currently undergoing maintenance