ESPN Classic's top 20 boxers of all time HORRIBLE!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

In case u missed it.....it was just on TV


20. larry holmes
19. julio cesar chavez
18. evander holyfield
17. Gene Tunney
16. Mike Tyson
15. roberto duran
14. Roy Jones
13. willie pep
12. archie moore
11. joe frazier
10. george foreman
9. marvin hagler
8. sugar ray leonard
7. jack johnson
6. henry armstrong
5. jack dempsey
4. Rocky Marciano
3. sugar ray robinson
2. Joe Louis
1. Muhammad Ali


WOW THESE ARE AWFUL.......way too much empasis on heavies

[Expug]

I watched it also.
A number of glaring ommisions like oh
Harry Greb
Carlos Monzon

[HomicideHenry]

Bloody hell Brockton you beat me to it lol


I agree, there was too much emphasis on the HW division, but mind you the HW division for the last 100 years has been the most heralded of divisions in boxing, so I can somewhat understand from the general public' view on the sport, as the HW title is the crown jewel of sports.

Ironically Muhammad Ali, who ESPN named the #1 fighter of all time, was quoted as saying "I am the greatest Heavyweight pound for pound, but Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest fighter of all time."

My list varies far differently than ESPN's as my top four would have been:

1.) Sugar Ray Robinson
2.) Henry Armstrong
3.) Willie Pep
4.) Archie Moore

At least, from using the names of the fighters from ESPN's list.

If Robinson never existed, Armstrong would have been the greatest of all time, no question, which is why I rank him at number two, with Pep not a hair behind Armstrong as possibly no fighter was as defensively as great or equal to "Willo-the Wisp", and Archie Moore at number four because of his great longevity, his quality of opposition that he defeated, his record of most KO's than anyone else, and of course his skill and ability.

It is much easier, in my opinion, to rank the best fighters in various weight classes, rather than on an ATG level---say for example the Middleweight division, in my opinion nobody did more at Middleweight against a greater level of opposition over the longest period of time than Harry Greb---but in over all success Robinson was the best.

[Chuck1052]

The ESPN list of the so-called top-twenty fighters is a joke.
It doesn't have the following fighters: 1. Harry Greb
2. Ezzard Charles 3. Eder Jofre 4. Benny Leonard
5. Jimmy Wilde 5. Mickey Walker 6. Joe Gans
7. Terry McGovern 8. Joe Walcott 9. Pernell
Whitaker 10. Ike Williams 11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Manuel Ortiz 13. Carlos Zarate 14. Ruben
Olivares 15. Jack Johnson 16. Bob Foster
17. Vicente Saldivar 18. Fighting Harada
19. Maxie Rosenbloom 20. Jimmy McLarnin
21. Barney Ross 22. Tony Canzoneri
23. Pancho Villa 24. Jim Jeffries
25. Bob Fitzsimmons 26. Sandy Saddler

I am not claiming that all of the mentioned fighters would make
my list, but a number of them would. By the way, I wasn't
rating the fighters who didn't make the ESPN cut, but
was simply compiling the names of truly great fighters.

- Chuck Johnston

[generic screen name]

How did Benny Leonard AND Carlos Monzon not make it? I like Roy Jones and he can be arguably the best fighter in the 90s but he doesn't come close to warrant a top 20 list!! Mike Tyson is another joke in the ratings, he's a top 15 heavyweight!!! Where the hell is Kid Gavilan, Sweet Pea,

[generic screen name]

Different list
Ring Magazine's 80 best fighters in the last 80 years:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
21. Barney Ross
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Ike Williams
24. Salvador Sanchez
25. George Foreman
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Larry Holmes
28. Mickey Walker
29. Ruben Olivares
30. Gene Tunney
31. Dick Tiger
32. Fighting Harada
33. Emile Griffith
34. Tony Canzoneri
35. Aaron Pryor
36. Pascual Perez
37. Miguel Canto
38. Manuel Ortiz
39. Charley Burley
40. Carmen Basilio
41. Michael Spinks
42. Joe Frazier
43. Khaosai Galaxy
44. Roy Jones, Jr.
45. Tiger Flowers
46. Panama Al Brown
47. Kid Chocolate
48. Joe Brown
49. Tommy Loughran
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Felix Trinidad
52. Jake LaMotta
53. Lennox Lewis
54. Wilfredo Gomez
55. Bob Foster
56. Jose Napoles
57. Billy Conn
58. Jimmy McLarnin
59. Pancho Villa
60. Carlos Ortiz
61. Bob Montgomery
62. Freddie Miller
63. Benny Lynch
64. Beau Jack
65. Azumah Nelson
66. Eusebio Pedroza
67. Thomas Hearns
68. Wilfred Benitez
69. Antonio Cervantes
70. Ricardo Lopez
71. Sonny Liston
72. Mike Tyson
73. Vicente Saldivar
74. Gene Fullmer
75. Oscar De La Hoya
76. Carlos Zarate
77. Marcel Cerdan
78. Flash Elorde
79. Mike McCallum
80. Harold Johnson
Tyson dropped from 16-72!!!! Although I still have a few disagreements in the Ring Magazine list (Hagler being too low). But its not flooded with heavyweights in the top 20!!!

[Chuck1052]

ESPN does some interesting things when putting
together their lists to suit its purposes. For instance,
they limited to their greatest athlete selections to North
Americans. Of course, people living outside the U.S.
would selected Pele over Michael Jordan if athletes from
all over the world were eligible. Think about it..soccer
is a much more popular sport and Pele was the most
revered soccer player.

The point is that someone like Mike Tyson wasn't in
Harry Greb's class as a fighter. You do not have to
look at films to determine that. The records tell
you the whole story. Yes, Tyson had a lot of talent,
but lacked the heart and desire. On the other side
of the coin, it is very probable that Greb had the
greatest record in boxing history. I would have a
tough time putting Tyson in the top 50 of all time
while Greb would be in my top three.

- Chuck Johnston

[BoxBuzz]

I understand ESPN's "spin" and although I could take you down the long and winding explanation for the outcome, one word describes it best.

Populist.

This is the nature and purpose of it's existence and for the casual fan I think it goes down smooth and probably satisfys. But for anyone who has studied the sport it's appalling.

[The Great John L]

Tyson dropped from 16-72!!!! Although I still have a few disagreements in the Ring Magazine list (Hagler being too low). But its not flooded with heavyweights in the top 20!!!

Yes, that's better, but they still have Tyson and Liston ahead of DLH and Zarate!!

[The Great John L]

Since there's no video of him, you know they'd NEVER put Greb in a list.

[sockdolager]

that list is a joke. I wont go off on it because there is no point, we all know it is stupid and we should leave it at that. The top 80 of the past 80 yrs was much better.

[silkov]

Holifield over Holmes!!... this is the same Holifield who struggled to beat a 43 year old Holmes HHHmmmm!... what are those guys on!...

[walshb]

As an avid fan of boxing for many years I think the list is OK.
I also believe that to put any fighter who was not a Heavyweight champion of the world (when he HW title meant something) at the top is wrong. Not that they aren't geat fighters, they are. But the HW is the best fighter in the world on his day. He can beat any man on the planet, plain and simple and just because he happens to be 15-16 stones and 6ft and over, this shouldn't mean that he gets relegated or loses out.
Ray Robinson to me was the finest fighter outside of the Heavies, but he would never have had a chance to beat say Louis, Marciano or CHarles during his time.

[BoxBuzz]

they do rate Moore over Charles....this would be one of less than a hand full of things they have correct.

[Chuck1052]

I made a couple of mistakes. Jack Johnson IS on the list
and Sam Langford, probably the best pre-WWI p4p fighter,
SHOULD be on it. In fact, Langford would make my top
five.

- Chuck Johnston

[HomicideHenry]

ESPN does some interesting things when putting
together their lists to suit its purposes. For instance,
they limited to their greatest athlete selections to North
Americans. Of course, people living outside the U.S.
would selected Pele over Michael Jordan if athletes from
all over the world were eligible. Think about it..football
is a much more popular sport and Pele was the most
revered football player.

I agree with that assumption. Myself the greatest all-around athlete in the world is/was Lance Armstrong who won the Tour De France seven times, but since cycling isn't one of the top sports in the world the NBA, MLB, NFL players get more popularity and recognition because it is more main stream.

The general public I believe if asked "Who is better Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds?" would probably pick Bonds because he is more recognisable, as the Tour De France is a once a year event while baseball is played in seasons.

People judge by who they see more of, rather than by records. I think that's why Mike Tyson, even after his best, was such an attraction, because he was in the spotlight all the time with his behavior, and a normal person hears that Tyson knocks out a Clifford Ettienne or a Julius Francis and thinks that he is still the man---when a real boxing fan can tell you that Tyson was never really the same after Buster Douglas.

[Jaclem]

..the buzzmeister makes these posts just to irritate ME!!! he aims them at ME!

[Ambling Alp]

Different list
Ring Magazine's 80 best fighters in the last 80 years:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
21. Barney Ross
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Ike Williams
24. Salvador Sanchez
25. George Foreman
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Larry Holmes
28. Mickey Walker
29. Ruben Olivares
30. Gene Tunney
31. Dick Tiger
32. Fighting Harada
33. Emile Griffith
34. Tony Canzoneri
35. Aaron Pryor
36. Pascual Perez
37. Miguel Canto
38. Manuel Ortiz
39. Charley Burley
40. Carmen Basilio
41. Michael Spinks
42. Joe Frazier
43. Khaosai Galaxy
44. Roy Jones, Jr.
45. Tiger Flowers
46. Panama Al Brown
47. Kid Chocolate
48. Joe Brown
49. Tommy Loughran
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Felix Trinidad
52. Jake LaMotta
53. Lennox Lewis
54. Wilfredo Gomez
55. Bob Foster
56. Jose Napoles
57. Billy Conn
58. Jimmy McLarnin
59. Pancho Villa
60. Carlos Ortiz
61. Bob Montgomery
62. Freddie Miller
63. Benny Lynch
64. Beau Jack
65. Azumah Nelson
66. Eusebio Pedroza
67. Thomas Hearns
68. Wilfred Benitez
69. Antonio Cervantes
70. Ricardo Lopez
71. Sonny Liston
72. Mike Tyson
73. Vicente Saldivar
74. Gene Fullmer
75. Oscar De La Hoya
76. Carlos Zarate
77. Marcel Cerdan
78. Flash Elorde
79. Mike McCallum
80. Harold Johnson
Tyson dropped from 16-72!!!! Although I still have a few disagreements in the Ring Magazine list (Hagler being too low). But its not flooded with heavyweights in the top 20!!!

This list going to make everyone happy but it certainly is better than the ESPN List.

Generic Screen Name -It says it's for the last 80 years.- When was this article written in Ring Magazine?
I'm trying to fiugyre out how far back they are going, they did include Dempsey but not guys a little before him like Johnson and Langford.

[walshb]

Lance Armstrong??, he's cyclist, period
He doesn't compare to Ali, Louis, Foreman etc etc. Boxers are the greatest
athlets of all. Cycling is to me a much more natural and easy sport. Boxing you are born with it. Not everyone ha that natural balance and coordination and footwork needed to be a supreme boxer. Cycling requires pedalling and more pedalling. There aint nobody throwing punches at you trying to take your head off

[The Great John L]

Lance Armstrong??, he's cyclist, period
He doesn't compare to Ali, Louis, Foreman etc etc. Boxers are the greatest
athlets of all. Cycling is to me a much more natural and easy sport. Boxing you are born with it. Not everyone ha that natural balance and coordination and footwork needed to be a supreme boxer. Cycling requires pedalling and more pedalling. There aint nobody throwing punches at you trying to take your head off

Clearly different sports, but if you’ve ever watched these distance cyclists or any other endurance type event, what is accomplished can be just as amazing as what a great boxer accomplishes in the ring. While just about anyone can ride a bike, how many can ride one for hundreds of miles up and down mountains at a staggering pace?

[Jaclem]

.....boxer in top condition is in the best shape of anyone ..in or out of sports.

..thank you for giving me the opportunity to pass this information along.

[sockdolager]

As an avid fan of boxing for many years I think the list is OK.
I also believe that to put any fighter who was not a Heavyweight champion of the world (when he HW title meant something) at the top is wrong. Not that they aren't geat fighters, they are. But the HW is the best fighter in the world on his day. He can beat any man on the planet, plain and simple and just because he happens to be 15-16 stones and 6ft and over, this shouldn't mean that he gets relegated or loses out.
Ray Robinson to me was the finest fighter outside of the Heavies, but he would never have had a chance to beat say Louis, Marciano or CHarles during his time.

in that case we should just make it a HW list . think about it, Benny Leonard vs Oscar Bonavena.....who deserves the honor of being called the better fighter and who would win a fight btwn the two?.....two different answers huh?

[JAHamilton77]

In case u missed it.....it was just on TV


20. larry holmes
19. julio cesar chavez
18. evander holyfield
17. Gene Tunney
16. Mike Tyson
15. roberto duran
14. Roy Jones
13. willie pep
12. archie moore
11. joe frazier
10. george foreman
9. marvin hagler
8. sugar ray leonard
7. jack johnson
6. henry armstrong
5. jack dempsey
4. Rocky Marciano
3. sugar ray robinson
2. Joe Louis
1. Muhammad Ali


WOW THESE ARE AWFUL.......way too much empasis on heavies

You can tell ESPN made the list because ali is #1
Marciano, Leonard, Hagler, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Jones dont belong in top 20, a few of them dont belong in the top 50.
Who do you think ESPN had put this list together for them?

[sockdolager]

In case u missed it.....it was just on TV


20. larry holmes
19. julio cesar chavez
18. evander holyfield
17. Gene Tunney
16. Mike Tyson
15. roberto duran
14. Roy Jones
13. willie pep
12. archie moore
11. joe frazier
10. george foreman
9. marvin hagler
8. sugar ray leonard
7. jack johnson
6. henry armstrong
5. jack dempsey
4. Rocky Marciano
3. sugar ray robinson
2. Joe Louis
1. Muhammad Ali


WOW THESE ARE AWFUL.......way too much empasis on heavies

You can tell ESPN made the list because ali is #1
Marciano, Leonard, Hagler, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Jones dont belong in top 20, a few of them dont belong in the top 50.
Who do you think ESPN had put this list together for them?

it can be argued for these 3 that they belong in a top 20 fighters list.

[JAHamilton77]

In case u missed it.....it was just on TV


20. larry holmes
19. julio cesar chavez
18. evander holyfield
17. Gene Tunney
16. Mike Tyson
15. roberto duran
14. Roy Jones
13. willie pep
12. archie moore
11. joe frazier
10. george foreman
9. marvin hagler
8. sugar ray leonard
7. jack johnson
6. henry armstrong
5. jack dempsey
4. Rocky Marciano
3. sugar ray robinson
2. Joe Louis
1. Muhammad Ali


WOW THESE ARE AWFUL.......way too much empasis on heavies

You can tell ESPN made the list because ali is #1
Marciano, Leonard, Hagler, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, Jones dont belong in top 20, a few of them dont belong in the top 50.
Who do you think ESPN had put this list together for them?

it can be argued for these 3 that they belong in a top 20 fighters list.

Yeah it can be argued, it depends on which era you place more value on. I should have put "IMO"