Joe Frazier vs Sonny Liston

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 23 Dec 2006, 15:52

who do you see winning?

I See Liston using his jab to keep Frazier at bay for the first couple of rounds then Frazier starts to get on the inside and bang away at Listons body but like Foreman Liston uses his physical strength to start pushing around the tired Frazier to KO him in the late rounds?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 23 Dec 2006, 16:16

Victor*KC wrote:who do you see winning?

I See Liston using his jab to keep Frazier at bay for the first couple of rounds then Frazier starts to get on the inside and bang away at Listons body but like Foreman Liston uses his physical strength to start pushing around the tired Frazier to KO him in the late rounds?

Plausible.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 23 Dec 2006, 16:27

70-71 Frazier would make Liston start to implode around the 8th round, when it becomes apparent Smokin Joe ain't going nowhere but forward. Joe Frazier by stoppage in the 10th.

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 23 Dec 2006, 16:53

I always thought it was because Liston had very slow Feet

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 24 Dec 2006, 05:33

Liston....too big for Frazier, too strong a jabber off a longer reach, and a KO punch to finish the job between 3-5 rnds.

J

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 24 Dec 2006, 12:41

I have but it seemed Liston had trouble Hitting ali because how fast he moved his feet.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 24 Dec 2006, 21:39

Liston...early....maybe quicker than Foreman...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 25 Dec 2006, 02:11

liston at his peak did not have slow feet. in fact he had quick feet. the vastly slowed down rusty declined liston you saw of the ali fights was not the vintage liston.

liston KO 4 frazier- liston had great inside fighting skills, and incredible uppercut which frazier was highly suceptible too. liston was also very physical strong and frazier would not be able to push liston around. stylistically frazier doesnt match up well vs liston, and i dont see this fight going long enough for fraziers high workrate and stamina to kick in.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 25 Dec 2006, 04:33

It would be similar to the Foreman fights IMO.

Liston would TKO a brave Frazier.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 25 Dec 2006, 10:33

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:liston at his peak did not have slow feet.

Yeah, compared to Butterbeah he had excellent foot speed.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 25 Dec 2006, 10:36

john2345 wrote:Liston....too big for Frazier...

Yeah, List at 210 had a huge size advantage over the 205 lb Frazier.

I think this is bad matchup for Frazier, with Liston winning by early stoppage before thr fifth, but certainly not because of any great discrepancy in size.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 25 Dec 2006, 23:00

The Great John L wrote:
john2345 wrote:Liston....too big for Frazier...
Yeah, List at 210 had a huge size advantage over the 205 lb Frazier.

I think this is bad matchup for Frazier, with Liston winning by early stoppage before thr fifth, but certainly not because of any great discrepancy in size.

...weight along does not define size...Liston was a much bigger man, with much bigger arms...Liston's reach was comparable to Lennox Lewis'...

tgchungmj · Post by **tgchungmj** » 26 Dec 2006, 08:59

I think Sonny Liston will surely beat Joe Frazier easily as George Foreman did to him

tgchungmj · Post by **tgchungmj** » 26 Dec 2006, 09:07

Hello. I am Korean and I am a boxing fan. I love old boxers very much.

I have visited this forum many times and I've enjoyed a lot and learned what I couldn't obtain in Korea.

I will try my best to be a good member in this forum. I am not good at English and cannot write too much...

I have a problem in talks with manias in Korea.

In Korea most of the boxing fans have begun to watch boxing since after 1970 and has no experience in old boxing. In Korea Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson is the greatest heavyweigt boxers of all time. They also heard that Ali is the greatest. Nevertheless few of them think Ali is greater than Lennox Lewis.

In particular Joe Louis is really underestimated. If someone says Joe Louis can beat Lennox Lewis he will be regarded as a man who believes not what he sees with his eyes but what others say. He is derided as a fool who believes in expert, foreigners, etc.

Someone has repeatedly says to me---

"American experts are always making mistakes of looking highly of old boxers. So their opinion is not worthy of listening at all. Look at Joe Louis' boxing. his hands are not located in the jaw or cheek. He cannot defend well with his hands so low in the chest. That style of boxing is very old-school and primitive. Joe Louis cannot last longer than 1 round if faced with Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson."

And I cannot beat him in theory and I cannot make him to understand how great is Joe Louis.

I will be very thankful to anyone who can teach me the way how I can succeed in persuading that guy. He is very very stubborn and he thinks he knows everything about boxing..

Thanks..

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 26 Dec 2006, 12:42

tgchungmj wrote:Hello. I am Korean and I am a boxing fan. I love old boxers very much.

I have visited this forum many times and I've enjoyed a lot and learned what I couldn't obtain in Korea.

I will try my best to be a good member in this forum. I am not good at English and cannot write too much...

I have a problem in talks with manias in Korea.

In Korea most of the boxing fans have begun to watch boxing since after 1970 and has no experience in old boxing. In Korea Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson is the greatest heavyweigt boxers of all time. They also heard that Ali is the greatest. Nevertheless few of them think Ali is greater than Lennox Lewis.

In particular Joe Louis is really underestimated. If someone says Joe Louis can beat Lennox Lewis he will be regarded as a man who believes not what he sees with his eyes but what others say. He is derided as a fool who believes in expert, foreigners, etc.

Someone has repeatedly says to me---

"American experts are always making mistakes of looking highly of old boxers. So their opinion is not worthy of listening at all. Look at Joe Louis' boxing. his hands are not located in the jaw or cheek. He cannot defend well with his hands so low in the chest. That style of boxing is very old-school and primitive. Joe Louis cannot last longer than 1 round if faced with Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson."

And I cannot beat him in theory and I cannot make him to understand how great is Joe Louis.

I will be very thankful to anyone who can teach me the way how I can succeed in persuading that guy. He is very very stubborn and he thinks he knows everything about boxing..

Thanks..

For starters, Lewis held his hands much lower than Louis. He also never learned to really parry a punch, often had his feet in improper position, and leaned straight back from punches (which Joe never did).

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 26 Dec 2006, 17:18

Sweet Scientist wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
john2345 wrote:Liston....too big for Frazier...
Yeah, List at 210 had a huge size advantage over the 205 lb Frazier.

I think this is bad matchup for Frazier, with Liston winning by early stoppage before thr fifth, but certainly not because of any great discrepancy in size.
...weight along does not define size...Liston was a much bigger man, with much bigger arms...Liston's reach was comparable to Lennox Lewis'...

Reach advantage is something that has been overcome on quite a few occasions.

tgchungmj · Post by **tgchungmj** » 27 Dec 2006, 03:26

I live in Seoul. Glad to meet you Decagon. I have read what you wrote many times and I know you are well inforemed of boxing.

Are you Korean?

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 27 Dec 2006, 04:00

Ali's reflexes and footspeed made Liston look like a sloth, Liston wasn't slow at all.

A little bit of a misconception that a backwards fighter would beat a forward fighter. Some forward fighters have trouble, with fighters that MAKE them go backwards. Norton had trouble w/Foreman because George made him go backwards, he was great against Ali. Holyfield, in the first fight against Tyson, was making Mike uncomfortable by pushing him back. But, even w/that said, other forward fighters get potshotted alot by backward fighters, it more depends on the style than the direction they fight.

If Liston chose at all to fight backwards, IMHO, Frazier wouldn't be all that uncomfortable, and I think would make for an entertaining fight.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 27 Dec 2006, 16:39

This would be a entertaining fight. The big questions would be if Liston could handle Frazier's pressure and if Frazier survives the early rounds. I'm not to sure that Liston could handle Frazier's pressure. This isn't Cleveland Williams, Folley or Patterson. This is a guy who could take a punch and wouldn't be intimidated either.
On the other hand, Frazier was often a slow starter and it isn't difficult to imagine Frazier getting caught coming in early in the fight. If Frazier would get through the first couple of rounds, he would have a good chance. The longer the fight, the better Frazier's chances. If anyone gets tired, it's going to be Liston.

As for Liston's footspeed, well it seemed about the same against Ali as when he fought Eddie Machen. ie, not very fast.
Though against Frazier, it probably wouldn't be much of a factor.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Dec 2006, 16:55

Ambling Alp wrote:This would be a entertaining fight. The big questions would be if Liston could handle Frazier's pressure and if Frazier survives the early rounds. I'm not to sure that Liston could handle Frazier's pressure. This isn't Cleveland Williams, Folley or Patterson. This is a guy who could take a punch and wouldn't be intimidated either.

Excellent point. Liston was a great fighter, but there was no one that he fought that was anything like Frazier.

Ambling Alp wrote:On the other hand, Frazier was often a slow starter and it isn't difficult to imagine Frazier getting caught coming in early in the fight. If Frazier would get through the first couple of rounds, he would have a good chance. The longer the fight, the better Frazier's chances. If anyone gets tired, it's going to be Liston.

Frazier usually did take a few rounds to get warmed up, which is why I would have favored Liston in this fight, although Frazier surviving and wearing Liston down is certainly a viable outcome as well.

Ambling Alp wrote:As for Liston's footspeed, well it seemed about the same against Ali as when he fought Eddie Machen. ie, not very fast.

Exactly; that’s my opinion as well. Liston was a great fighter, but his foot speed was not very good, and his hand speed was average at best.

Joe Frazier vs Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier vs Sonny Liston

Re: Joe Frazier vs Sonny Liston

Let me introduce myself to you all.

Re: Let me introduce myself to you all.