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Duplicate names/Miller example

Does anyone know how to enter a duplicate name to create a brand-new page? For example, there already is a Dave Miller page. If I try to create a page for a different "Dave Miller" I get the link to the one already here. --Ric 18:30, 15 Aug 2005 (CDT)

I moved Dave Miller to: Dave Miller (manager). The other Dave Miller will have to be given another name i.e. Dave Miller (promoter). You should also create a disambiguation page, when you are done, for misdirected text links.--Matt Tegen 18:36, 15 Aug 2005 (CDT)

Actually, that was just an example. :-D
I was thinking more of book and movie titles that are the same. I had thought about adding a parathentical note, but was hoping one could create two pages with the same name somehow.

With respect to books and films, I suggest the book titles be "left alone," and that movies with duplicate names have a (film) tag--because most films were based on the book. --Ric 19:29, 15 Aug 2005 (CDT)

Deleting certain fight/human pages?

Some fight or human pages do not provide additional information in comparison with the BoxRec database: Only the fight or human code has been entered or merely details are given which have been inserted into BoxRec, too (see here, for instance). Thus, clicking on such fight or human pages is a waste of time for BoxRec users.

Deleting or keeping them?

--Emaster 12:06, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

I agree, I don't see why you need to create a page, when all you add is what is already appearing in BoxRec. I know I only create pages when I have comments about the bout to make. You should ask JollyDee why he created all those pages.--Matt Tegen 18:46, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

So should pages containing information which does not exceed what has been fed into BoxRec be deleted?--Emaster 15:04, 2 October 2007 (CDT)

If you don't see ANY additional information in the wiki, than can be found in BoxRec, then delete it.--Matt Tegen 15:58, 2 October 2007 (CDT)

I know I'm coming in late on this debate, but I do see some value in certain pages that contain no additional information (in comparaison to what appears in the database). Title fights are a good example. A number of editors have devoted significant time to create tables for title fights and have included links to the wiki books within those tables (see one I recently created here).

While I agree that a user that gets to the wiki blue book from the BoxRec database will not find any additional information in a simple "fight code page", the same cannot be said for the user who reaches that page from the encyclopaedia. The latter doesn't have direct access to the database (its a couple of clicks away).

For the same reason, I believe that simple "boxer code pages" have some value as they enable the creation of links from the encyclopaedia.

It's probably too late, as I see that you've been implementing the policy above, but I wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.--Reenthelawman 19:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Users watching BoxRec boxer pages do not benefit from links to boxer or fight wiki pages which merely show code-generated information as these data are already shown on the BoxRec boxer pages themselves. If such users click on open blue book icons, they don't gain further information but lose time instead.

On the other hand, users who are reading in the encyclopaedia benefit from links to those pages as even code-generated data are additional information from their perspective.

How can this conflict of interests be resolved? If fight or human pages have been moved to proper titles, pages with titles like "Fight:12345" or "Human:12345" have become redirect pages connecting the fight or human pages to which they redirect to BoxRec. Those redirects could be deleted so that the blue book icons close. Thus, BoxRec users would not open wiki pages with no additional data any more while wiki users could still access human or fight pages which only show code-generated information.

This would bring about the danger of creating duplicate pages, though. When encountering closed blue book icons, editors might just start editing the corresponding wiki pages, possibly creating duplicates. If they then tried to move the newly created page to a title which exactly agrees with the title of a duplicate page, there would be a notification and the editors could merge the pages. But reorganization would still be required and some bits of information entered on the newer page, for instance the fight or human code, might be the same which had already been entered into the older page so that unnecessary work would have been done. To save editors such trouble there could be another warning below the editing window, telling editors to first find out if the fight or human page they want to work on already exists by using the search box. If that is the case, a redirect page, which will open the blue book icon, should be created. Then, the already existing page could be edited.

--Emaster 01:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleting redirects is not a solution to the same problem in connection with death code-generated links, though. The death code generates internal links to the wiki pages of humans into whose BoxRec profiles their death dates have been inserted. Like blue books linking to human wiki pages, death code-generated links link to pages with titles like "Human:12345," which become redirect pages after being moved to proper titles. Deleting the redirects on behalf of BoxRec users, which seems to be appropriate if the wiki pages the redirects link to do not provide additional information in comparison with BoxRec, would not only close the blue books belonging to them but also disable death code-generated links. Thus, BoxRec user and wiki user interests cannot be conciliated by deleting redirects.--Emaster 19:46, 29 February 2012 (CST)

I'm more opposed to the PetePod (Red) edits that seem to be done for no apparent purpose. Edits that are for a constructive purpose such as yours are fine, if they are in the context of a project such as yours.--Matt Tegen 05:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"Retired" vs. "Vacated"

I need instructions on how to decide whether a champion who relinquishes his title has just vacated his title or even retired. In the title succession box on Muhammad Ali's wiki page, for instance, Ali is called retired after vacating his WBA heavyweight title on April 27, 1979. At the time he intended to retire, but he did return to the ring later. So is it "enough" to announce retirement to say that a champion "retired" or must there be an actual retirement? The other way round, would a champion who relinquishes his title without intending to end his career still have simply vacated his title, if he, for whatever reason, never returned to the ring? What's the deciding factor: intensions or facts?--Emaster 22:11, 31 October 2007 (CDT)

How about handling such situations as follows?
1. If a champion has vacated his title and really never fought again he retired.
2. If a champion has vacated his title, but returned to the ring later he vacated his title.--Emaster 21:57, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

If a fighter said he was retiring, thereby giving up his title, he retired in my book. In the case of Ali, his third title reign ended by retirement, he wasn't stripped or he didn't abandon his title. I know when I added many of those title boxes, I took care to note whether someone retired or vacated. Also, I have been corrected by others who have caught my mistakes. If you have questions you should be able to find a lot of stuff through a google search and a little digging. If not, then ask, somebody here can probably figure it out, unless it is some of the recent shenanigans that the alphabet soup game pull off.--Matt Tegen 23:00, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

Your explanation of Ali's case provides the definition I sought for; my simple definiton offered above is therefore not applicable. Whenever I see differing statements regarding the question "retired or vacated?" or "vacated or stripped" respectively while comparing the lists of title lineages with the title succession boxes on boxer pages I'm going to perform a google search to find out which statement was correct.--Emaster 10:41, 2 November 2007 (CDT)

"Became vacant" preferable?

To avoid the problem of finding out whether a fighter has given up his title intentionally ("vacated"), or whether he has done that to end his boxing career ("retired"), or whether it has been taken away from him ("stripped"), a generic term could be used in title succession boxes (e.g. "became vacant"). If the specific circumstances are known, they can be complemented in a footnote.--Emaster 01:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Scorecard code

Is there a code we can use for scorecards? Kind of like the punchstat codes? Of course I don't mean for personal opinions but if we have an official round-by-round scorecard or even a round-by-round Lederman/Atlas unofficial score? --Nathan 15:24, 4 January 2008 (CST)

Succession boxes of WBA title holders have been changed

I've made a few adjustments in title succession boxes of regular or super champions in the WBA.

I think the term "regular champion" should only describe regular title holders whose reigns at least partly coincide with super champions' reigns as the word "regular" suggests that the corresponding titles are somehow devaluated so that this term would wrongly derogate a regular champion's reign which never coincides with a super champion's reign. Compare the following boxes representing Carlos Maussa's reign as WBA light welterweight champion:


Preceded by:
Vivian Harris
Regular Champion
WBA Light Welterweight Champion

2005 Jun 25 – 2005 Nov 26
Lost bid for Super Championship

Succeeded by:
Ricky Hatton
Super Champion
Succeeded by:
Souleymane M'baye



Preceded by:
Vivian Harris
Regular Champion
WBA Light Welterweight Champion

2005 Jun 25 – 2005 Nov 26
Lost bid for Super Championship

Succeeded by:
Ricky Hatton
Super Champion
Succeeded by:
Souleymane M'baye
Regular Champion


The latter box states M'baye became regular champion (which is true) only to distinguish his title from Hatton's super championship. Nevertheless, when M'baye won the vacant regular title, Hatton had already relinquished his super championship so that M'baye's title has never been derogated by the more valuable super title. That's why I favor the former box on Maussa's boxer page.

Furthermore, I put the kind of championship (regular or super) below the boxers' names. Compare the boxes regarding Ricardo Mayorga's reign as WBA welterweight champion:


Preceded by:
Andrew Lewis
WBA Welterweight Champion

2002 Mar 30 – 2003 Jan 25
Upgraded to Super Champion
2003 Jan 25 – 2003 Dec 13
Super Champion

Succeeded by:
Cory Spinks
Super Champion
Succeeded by:
Jose Antonio Rivera
Regular Champion



Preceded by:
Andrew Lewis
WBA Welterweight Champion

2002 Mar 30 – 2003 Jan 25
Upgraded to Super Champion
2003 Jan 25 – 2003 Dec 13
Super Champion

Succeeded by:
Super Champion
Cory Spinks
Succeeded by:
Regular Champion
Jose Antonio Rivera


On this page the same pattern is applied (e.g. with interim champions). I'm not quite sure which form is more appropriate.

I split reigns of WBA champions who first held the regular title and later were awarded the super title after unifying. The explanation for losing the regular title in these cases is "Upgraded to Super Champion" or "Lost bid for Super Championship" in those cases in which WBA regular champions failed to win unification bouts. (Just saying "Stripped" would be misleading in both cases though this might be used officially.)

All additions in the middle column of the succession boxes are below the dates of the reign they refer to. (Look at the WBA welterweight champion boxes above.)

--Emaster 21:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

New suggestion

I now think that marking a regular title holder's reign as such, only if it at least partially coincides with a super champion's reign, confuses more than it helps to clarify as it might cause the impression that there are three kinds of titles: the super title, the regular title and another one which is not specified. I suggest only marking super title reigns as such and keep all regular reigns unmarked. The time period in which a regular champion's reign coincides with a super champion's reign could be indicated by a footnote. Examples:

Example 1:

Current Box:


Preceded by:
Mehdi Sahnoune
Regular Champion
WBA Light Heavyweight Champion
2003 Oct 10 – 2004 Mar 20
Regular Champion
Succeeded by:
Fabrice Tiozzo
Regular Champion


Suggested Box:


Preceded by:
Mehdi Sahnoune
WBA Light Heavyweight Champion
2003 Oct 10 – 2004 Mar 20 *
Succeeded by:
Fabrice Tiozzo


* The WBA recognized a super champion throughout Branco's reign.


Example 2:

Current Box:


Preceded by:
Silvio Branco
Regular Champion
WBA Light Heavyweight Champion
2004 Mar 20 – 2006 Oct 19
Regular Champion
Retired
Succeeded by:
Silvio Branco


Suggested Box:


Preceded by:
Silvio Branco
WBA Light Heavyweight Champion
2004 Mar 20 – 2006 Oct 19 *
Retired
Succeeded by:
Silvio Branco


* The WBA recognized a super champion until May 15, 2004.


Example 3:

Current Box:


Preceded by:
Andrew Lewis
WBA Welterweight Champion

2002 Mar 30 – 2003 Jan 25
Upgraded to Super Champion
2003 Jan 25 – 2003 Dec 13
Super Champion

Succeeded by:
Cory Spinks
Super Champion
Succeeded by:
Jose Antonio Rivera
Regular Champion


Suggested Box:


Preceded by:
Andrew Lewis
WBA Welterweight Champion

2002 Mar 30 – 2003 Jan 25
Upgraded to Super Champion
2003 Jan 25 – 2003 Dec 13
Super Champion

Succeeded by:
Cory Spinks
Super Champion
Succeeded by:
Jose Antonio Rivera


BTW: Should there be a space character between a date and an asterisk in a title succession box or between an asterisk and an explanatory line respectively? I did use space characters in the examples above.)

--Emaster 01:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Another suggestion

The phrase "Upgraded to Super Champion" might suggest there was no fight through which this distinction was accomplished. "Won Super Championship" might be clearer.--Emaster 00:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

If a regular champion has been upgraded to super champion without unifying titles (like Antonio Margarito in October of 2008), the phrase "Upgraded to Super Champion" does fit though.--Emaster 22:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages

These pages shouldn't link to disambiguation pages. "They should link to the appropriate topic instead." I can't assign them, though. Who can?

Disambiguation pages might be appropriate to link to juniors and seniors. Now the page Floyd Mayweather is about Mayweather Sr. It could be made a disambiguation page linking to Mayweather Sr. and Mayweather Jr.

--Emaster 20:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Fights missing in BoxRec

These fights, which are missing from the database, may have happened.

--Emaster 21:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Should blank pages or certain redirect talk pages be deleted?

The Short pages special first lists blank pages. Should these pages really be deleted given the fact that they have page histories?

Should redirect talk pages which look like "Talk:Human:123456" or "Talk:Fight:123456" be deleted? I think they only fulfil a purpose if the corresponding article page has not been edited yet. Then, when accessing a fight or human page by clicking on a blue book icon, the existence of the redirect page enables users to see that at least the talk page has been edited (with the title of its tab in blue font). If this redirect talk page had been deleted, the moved talk page would not be associated to the fight or human page any more, whose talk page's tab title would then appear in red. Click, for instance, on the blue book icon of Al Jackson's BoxRec profile. But except for the rare case that only the talk page has been edited, redirect talk pages seem to be useless.

--Emaster 22:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Bugs and minor issues

The first pages listed on the short pages special do not exist.

The All pages special lists some pages which do not exist (any more), with all page titles containing special characters except for two: Boxer:Umberto Magliocchetti (Maggi):123978 (See here.) and Steve Conway vs. Mihaly Kotai (1st. meeting) (See here.). Some of them are even included in categories:

--Emaster 21:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The All pages (Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia namespace) special shows the "Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia:" page, which is a Bad title special.

The All pages (Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia namespace) special also itemizes three project pages constituting logs:

The logs have been integrated into the All public logs special. The Bureaucrat log has been renamed User Rights log. Maybe the logs on the project pages can be added to the All public logs special.

--Emaster 03:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The fact that IDs belonging to deleted records still work when embedded in human code (<human>ID</human>) may be related to the fact that the death code (<deaths>year</deaths>) even generates internal links to humans' wiki pages which belong to deleted records if the respective humans' death dates had been inserted into the now-deleted BoxRec profiles when they were still existing (see Temuzin Rambing's entries on 2010-07-24). To fix that the death dates need to be removed from deleted profiles, which are still editable.--Emaster 10:39, 20 January 2012 (CST)

The death code does not generate unspecified January dates: Jackie Scott is not listed among the deaths in 2012 although 2012-01-00 has been entered as his death date.

The boxer/human code does not generate the names of certain countries in the Birthplace, Nationality, or Hometown fields:

  • Cap Verde: at least not being displayed as Joey Lopes's birthplace
  • Greenland: at least not being displayed as Tue Bjorn Thomsen's birthplace
  • Iraq: not being displayed in Birthplace or Hometown fields, e.g.

Name: Muhammed Yusif
Born: 1974-11-09
Birthplace:
Nationality: Iraqi
Hometown:
Boxing Record: click

  • Montenegro: not being displayed in Birthplace, Nationality, or Hometown fields, e.g.

Name: Miodrag Perunovic
Born: 1957-12-10
Birthplace: Cetinje,
Hometown: Cetinje,
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 5′ 10½″   /   179cm
Boxing Record: click

  • Serbia: not being displayed in Birthplace, Nationality, or Hometown fields, e.g.

Name: Zoran Sekularac
Born: 1958-12-21 (Age:55)
Birthplace: Sjenica,
Hometown: Smederevska Palanka,
Stance: Orthodox
Boxing Record: click

--Emaster 10:39, 20 January 2012 (CST)

The automatic update of redirects is not in effect any more.--Emaster 23:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Human code-generated Supervising Record links should link to URLs including "bouts" instead of "shows" (http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=403588&cat=supervisor instead of http://boxrec.com/list_shows.php?human_id=403588&cat=supervisor)

If no country is shown on a nonboxer's profile, the human code generates a blank country field on the corresponding wiki page instead of omitting the field (see, for instance, the page of promoter Gus Robinson).--Emaster 10:39, 20 January 2012 (CST)

An image gallery bug has been discussed here.--Emaster 20:12, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Code and resulting data

Human code

The human code should generate links to the records of inspectors (Inspecting Record) and the BoxRec pages of managers.

It could also create the career range.

"Hometown" should be renamed "Residence" as that location is not necessarily entered as specific as the town/city.

Fight code

The fight code transfers various data from the database onto fight pages in the encyclopaedia, that is the date of the contest, the fighters' names, their official weights, the result, the time if the fight has not gone the distance, the rounds boxed and scheduled, the location, the referee's and judges' names, and the official scores. What is not generated is the boxers' records from before the bout, the "last 6" diagrams, the title(s) at stake and the comments BoxRec editors have inserted into the database. Editors often add data the code does not produce manually. That effort could be saved if such data were generated by the fight code as well so that all the fight data would be displayed on the corresponding fight page. Also, a link to the BoxRec page showing the fight card on which the bout was held should be generated as has been suggested here.

The weights could be put in parentheses or even placed below the line giving the fight's location.

The representation of the score totals could be amended: Presently, the viewer has to consider the order of the fighters' names as given by the fight code to attribute the scores correctly. Instead, that fighter who is ahead on the first (second, third) scorecard should be listed next to the scores in parentheses.

Names generated by code always appear in the color representing existing pages in the encyclopaedia (blue by default). The names for which corresponding pages have not yet been created should instead be represented in the color designated for that case (red by default).

Example illustrating some of the aforementioned suggestions:

Current representation:

2006-07-28 : Sultan Ibragimov 231¾ lbs drew with Ray Austin 245½ lbs by SD in round 12 of 12

Suggestion:

2006-07-28: Sultan Ibragimov drew with Ray Austin by PTS in round 12 of 12
Location: Seminole Hard Rock Hotel and Casino, Hollywood, Florida, USA
Weights: Ibragimov: 231¾ lbs, Austin: 245½ lbs
Referee: Tommy Kimmons
Judge: Peter Trematerra 115-111 (Ibragimov)
Judge: Bill Ray 113-113
Judge: Tom Miller 114-112 (Austin)

Naming boxer and fight pages

Conventions on naming boxer and fight pages would benefit the encyclopaedia's consistency and editors, who would exactly know to which titles wiki pages should be moved.

Boxer Pages

A boxer page which has not yet been moved so that it is still entitled "Human:12345", for example, will usually be moved to a new title which agrees with the boxer's name as given in BoxRec (e.g. Human:142288 to Oleydong Sithsamerchai). Sometimes, however, a page is moved to a title consisting of the boxer's "Alias", his "Birth Name," or a blend of both of them. The alias can also be added in parentheses as may be the boxer's standard weight class (e.g. Battling Siki (Welterweight)), or his main function in boxing, which is not necessarily being a boxer (e.g. Billy Graham (Trainer)), or the era in which he's fought (e.g. Russell Sands (1980s)), or his residence/origin with the latter being attributed in various ways (e.g. Babe Herman (Salt Lake City), Al Reid (South Carolina), Billy White (WV), Alfonso Lopez (Corpus Christi, TX), Andrew Murray (Ireland), Andy Morris (British), Billy Young (of Canada)). In case the boxer's standard weight class or his main function is added, the initial letters in the added term are either capitalized or noncapitalized (e.g. Ned Brown (Boxer) or Joe Bayley (boxer); Davey Moore (Light Middleweight) or Stephen Smith (Light welterweight)). Often these additions serve to distinguish boxers of the same name.

To establish a simple name convention boxer pages could solely be moved to titles which exactly agree with the boxers' names as entered into the database. Aliases, weight divisions etc. could be added to this name in BoxRec already so that the same BoxRec name would not be attributed to various boxers.

In any case the qualities could be prioritized (e.g. alias > function > weight division > residence/origin > era), i.e of the known qualities of a boxer that which is assigned the highest priority should be added. Its representation could be defined as well (e.g. in case of residence/origin: (of) city, (abbreviated) state, country).

Sometimes a boxer is known under more than one name or his name can be spelt in various ways. Redirect pages should be created in such a case.

If a boxer has altered his name during his career, this is reflected in title fights lists, title lineages, or title succession boxes on boxer pages: For instance, Eddie Gregory has changed his name to Eddie Mustafa Muhammad after winning the WBA light heavyweight championship from Marvin Johnson. Later, he lost his title to Michael Spinks. On Johnson's boxer page the name Eddie Gregory appears in a succession box as Johnson's successor. The name Eddie Mustafa Muhammad appears in a succession box on Michael Spinks's boxer page as Spinks's predecessor.

Calling the same person by different names may cause confusion, though, so that those versions which agree with the boxer page titles should be used throughout.

Fight Pages

A fight page which has not yet been moved so that it is still entitled "Fight:12345", for example, will often be moved to a title consisting of both contestants' names with "vs." in between. The moving of the title can be initiated by copying that part of the fight code-generated data which comprises the boxers' names and the word(s) between them (e.g. "160lbs beat", "160lbs lost to"). After then clicking on the "move" tab the copied term can be inserted into the "To new title" field of the Move page and after replacing the word(s) between the boxers' names with "vs.", the "Move page" button can be clicked on to finally move the page.

However, if there’s been more than one bout between two fighters, the fight page titles also indicate how many times the boxers have fought each other up to their respective meeting (a vs. b (1st meeting); a vs. b (2nd meeting); …). Finding out how often the boxers have fought against one another requires scanning one of their records. And even if an opponent's name appears more than once on a boxer's record, the name does not necessarily refer to the same boxer as BoxRec allows several humans to have the same BoxRec name.

As stated above, sometimes the titles of boxer pages do not agree with the boxers' BoxRec names. The fight code generates the BoxRec names. Which names ought to be included in the titles the fight pages should be moved to? The BoxRec names or the encyclopaedia names (i.e. the boxer page titles)? If the latter were to be included, editors would have to check first whether there is a difference between the BoxRec name and the boxer page title and if they do not agree, the moving of the fight page to its new title would require more complicated copy and paste actions. Moving boxer pages only to titles which agree with the boxers' names in BoxRec, as proposed above, would solve this problem..

Another moot question is the order of the boxers' names in the titles of fight pages. Keeping the order that is given by the fight code is the easiest solution. If the code-generated order of the names had to be reversed, more complicated copy and paste actions would ensue.

All pages

Should single quotation marks if used in BoxRec names be replaced by parentheses when creating boxer pages (e.g. Al (Bummy) Davis rather than Al 'Bummy' Davis)?

Page titles containing special characters are not listed as matching results if equivalent common characters are inserted into the wiki search box. Corresponding redirect pages without special characters can be created to avoid the problem.

Especially in case of fight pages, creating redirect pages for each page with a special character in its title would require a lot of effort. This could be avoided by using special characters merely in the titles of boxer pages, but doing without them in the titles of fight pages (and thus settling for their common equivalents).

--Emaster 00:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it technically feasible for boxer or fight pages to be moved to titles automatically after being edited and saved? An algorithm considering all naming conventions would have to be created.--Emaster 01:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Order of sanctioning body titles in succession boxes

If titles of at least two sanctioning bodies are acquired at once, the order in which the titles are listed in succession boxes and the order in which succession boxes are listed themselves could be determined by the age of the sanctioning bodies with the oldest displayed at the top of the box/in the box at the top (WBA > WBC > IBF > WBO).

Current order (alphabetical):

Preceded by:
Bernard Hopkins
IBF Middleweight Champion
2005 Jul 16 – 2005 Oct 11
Vacated
Succeeded by:
Arthur Abraham
Preceded by:
Bernard Hopkins
Super Champion
WBA Middleweight Champion
2005 Jul 16 – 2006 Dec 14
Super Champion
Stripped
Succeeded by:
Preceded by:
Bernard Hopkins
WBC Middleweight Champion
WBO Middleweight Champion

2005 Jul 16 – 2007 Sep 29
Succeeded by:
Kelly Pavlik


Proposed order:

Preceded by:
Bernard Hopkins
Super Champion
WBA Middleweight Champion
2005 Jul 16 – 2006 Dec 14
Super Champion
Stripped
Succeeded by:
Preceded by:
Bernard Hopkins
WBC Middleweight Champion
WBO Middleweight Champion

2005 Jul 16 – 2007 Sep 29
Succeeded by:
Kelly Pavlik
Preceded by:
Bernard Hopkins
IBF Middleweight Champion
2005 Jul 16 – 2005 Oct 11
Vacated
Succeeded by:
Arthur Abraham


In the box representing both the WBC and the WBO title the title awarded by the older body is decisive for the place of the box.

--Emaster 00:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Consistent treatment of interim championships

Interim champions are not included in the World Title Lineages and on the lists of current champions on the sanctioning body pages; they are not credited with interim title succession boxes on their boxer pages. On the other hand, they do appear on the World Champions By Weight Class page and their fights are listed as title fights on the World Title Fights lists.

I propose including them on all the lists (while indicating the interim nature of their titles) and credit them with interim title succession boxes on their boxer pages and interim title fight succession boxes on fight pages which refer to interim title fights.

Proposals:

  • Regarding World Title Lineages:

Current version (excerpt from WBC Flyweight Champion):

No.
Champion
Reign Began Reign Ended
Defenses
29 Chatchai Sasakul 1997 Nov 12 1998 Dec 4 2


Proposal:

No.
Champion
Reign Began Reign Ended
Defenses
29 Chatchai Sasakul 1997 May 9 IC
1997 Nov 12
1997 Nov 12
1998 Dec 4
1 (or 2?)
2


The numberings of these lineages need adjusting if interim reigns are really added to them.

The number of defenses as interim champion should not be added to the number of defenses as full champion.

Does a unification fight which pits the full and the interim title holders against one another also count as a defense of the interim title if the interim title holder captures the full title? If it does, the upper number in the "Defenses" column of the proposal would be a "2" (not a "1").

What if such a unification does not produce a winner? The full champion defends his title, of course, but does the interim titlist at least keep his title, does he even notch another defense or is he stripped of his title?

  • Regarding lists of current champions on the sanctioning body pages:

Current version (excerpt from WBA Welterweight Champion):

CURRENT TITLE HOLDERS
Weight Class Champion Date Won Title Lineage Title Fights
Welterweight Antonio Margarito 2008 Jul 26 Title Lineage Title Fights


Proposal:

CURRENT TITLE HOLDERS
Weight Class Champion Date Won Title Lineage Title Fights
Welterweight Antonio Margarito
Yuriy Nuzhnenko
2008 Jul 26
2007 Dec 8 IC
Title Lineage Title Fights
  • Regarding interim title succession boxes:

Proposed version (excerpt from Chatchai Sasakul):

Preceded by:
WBC Flyweight Champion
1997 May 9 – 1997 Nov 12
Interim Champion
Won full championship
Succeeded by:
Preceded by:
Yuri Arbachakov
WBC Flyweight Champion
1997 Nov 12 – 1998 Dec 4
Succeeded by:
Manny Pacquiao


Interim titles are awarded occasionally. Interim title succession boxes should show an emdash in the "Preceded by:" column if the interim title was vacant before being captured. The emdash should also show up in the "Succeeded by:" column if the interim title becomes vacant after a reign.

I think a phrase like "Won/Gained/Captured full championship/title" suggests that the interim champion dethroned the full champion by defeating him in the ring. Besides the commmon "Vacated", "Retired", "Died", and "Stripped", something like "Upgraded to full champion" could be used if an interim titlist is upgraded to full champion without capturing the full title in the ring.

--Emaster 00:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Interim champions should not be included in the same categories as full champions (Category:Multiple Division World Champions, Category:World Champions By Nationality, Category:Southpaw World Champions). They could be included in their own categories ("Multiple Division Interim World Champions", "Interim World Champions By Nationality", "Southpaw Interim World Champions". But instead, I'd suggest creating the generic category "Interim World Champions" which should contain fighters who have held interim world titles of major sanctioning bodies (including those who had already held or would go on to win full world titles).--Emaster 21:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Consistent treatment of WBA regular/super championships

As explained here the regular title should not be marked as such if there is a super champion. This policy has already been in effect with the World Champions By Weight Class page.

Proposals:

  • Regarding World Title Lineages:

Current version (excerpt from WBA Super Middleweight Champion):

No.
Champion
Reign Began Reign Ended
Defenses
15 Mikkel Kessler 2004 Nov 12 SC 2007 Nov 3 4


Proposal #1:

No.
Champion
Reign Began Reign Ended
Defenses
15 Mikkel Kessler 2004 Nov 12
2006 Oct 14 SC
2006 Oct 14
2007 Nov 3
4


Proposal #2:

No.
Champion
Reign Began Reign Ended
Defenses
15 Mikkel Kessler 2004 Nov 12
2006 Oct 14 SC
2006 Oct 14
2007 Nov 3
2 (or 3?)
1


Should the number of defenses a boxer has had as a regular champion be added to the number of defenses he’s had as a super champion? Unlike interim titlists, both regular and super champions hold full titles and providing the total number of defenses might be sensitive.

Analogously to the interim vs. full titlist unification certain questions come up when the regular faces the WBA super, WBC, IBF, or WBO champion:

Does a unification fight which pits the regular and the WBA super, WBC, IBF, or WBO champion against one another also count as a defense of the regular title if the regular title holder captures the other title? If it does, the upper number in the "Defenses" column of proposal #2 would be a "3" (not a "2" as Kessler's capturing of the super title in the unification bout with Markus Beyer would also count as a defense of the regular title; proposal #1 considers this bout a defense of the WBA title anyway).

What if such a unification does not produce a winner? The WBA super, WBC, IBF, or WBO champion defends his title, of course, but does the regular titlist at least keep his title, does he even notch another defense or is he stripped of his title?

  • Regarding lists of current champions on the sanctioning body pages:

Current version (excerpt from WBA):

CURRENT TITLE HOLDERS
Super Middleweight Joe Calzaghe 2007 Nov 3 Title Lineage Title Fights


Proposal:

CURRENT TITLE HOLDERS
Super Middleweight Joe Calzaghe
Mikkel Kessler
2007 Nov 3 SC
2008 Jun 21
Title Lineage Title Fights


--Emaster 00:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Fight Succession Boxes

Fight pages dealing with title fights can have fight succession boxes.

A boxer's first name or an abbreviation of it should only be shown in the succession boxes if he shares his surname with other holders of the title the succession boxes refer to.

If a WBA super championship has been at stake, it should be indicated as such. The same applies to interim championships.

I think no space should be between a number sign and a number: #1 (not # 1).

The order in which sanctioning bodies should appear is suggested here.

--Emaster 00:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Champion in recess

Periods in which champions are in official recess should be presented in separate title succession boxes on boxer pages. Otherwise confusion may arise as the shared Valuev/Chagaev WBA heavyweight championship shows. Nicolay Valuev is Ruslan Chagaev's successor as the "active" champion; this spot had become vacant after Chagaev was made champion in recess. Chagaev still held his title, though. Only Chagaev's status was altered from "active" champion to "champion in recess". Thus two fighters held the same title at the same time.

Proposed boxes:


Preceded by:
Nikolay Valuev
WBA Heavyweight Champion
2007 Apr 14 – 2008 Jul 4
Declared Champion in Recess
Succeeded by:
Nikolay Valuev
Preceded by:
WBA Heavyweight Champion
2008 Jul 4 – present
Champion in Recess
Succeeded by:


The following alternative looks as if Valuev is also Chagaev's successor as champion in recess.


Preceded by:
Nikolay Valuev
WBA Heavyweight Champion
2007 Apr 14 – 2008 Jul 4
Declared Champion in Recess
2008 Jul 4 – present
Champion in Recess
Succeeded by:
Nikolay Valuev


Thus two boxes are required.

If Chagaev had beaten Valuev again to regain the status as "active" champion, a third box would have been added on Chagaev's boxer page with Valuev as Chagaev's predecessor. Chagaev would have held the title throughout, though, firstly as "active" champion, then as champion in recess and again as "active" champion. Valuev held the same title as the "active" champion for the most part of Chagaev's recess period.

--Emaster 02:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Footnoting details on losing titles in noncompetitive fashion

If title holders have not lost their belts through defeats in the ring but by retirement, death, vacating their titles or being stripped of them, this is mentioned on title lineages and in title succession boxes. Further explanations could be footnoted, for instance in the case of a champion who has failed to make the weight, which is presently noted within the succession box.

Current box (from Jorge Rodrigo Barrios's boxer page):


Preceded by:
Mike Anchondo
Stripped (failed to make weight)
WBO Super Featherweight Champion
2005 Apr 8 – 2006 Sep 15
Stripped (failed to make weight)
Succeeded by:
Joan Guzman


Suggested box:


Preceded by:
Mike Anchondo
Stripped 1
WBO Super Featherweight Champion
2005 Apr 8 – 2006 Sep 15
Stripped 1
Succeeded by:
Joan Guzman


1 - Failed to make the weight.

That way, specific explanations can be added in case of fighters abandoning titles, being stripped of them or other occurrences. (Retirement is already a specification for the abandonment of a title, of course, but can still be further explained.)

--Emaster 03:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Which NCs/NDs count as title defenses?

Sanctioning bodies decide which contests are officially counted as title defenses. The following example shows that a certain kind of No Decision is unlikely to be deemed a successful defense for the title holder.

Omar Nino Romero defended his WBC light flyweight title against Brian Viloria on November 18, 2006. He failed a post fight drug test and was stripped of the title on February 2, 2007. Nevertheless, the No Decision against Viloria is counted as a successful title defense on this lineage page.

--Emaster 03:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

If a No Decision is indeed not counted as a defense, it is conceivable that the fight also loses its recognition as a title fight retroactively as the title has neither changed hands nor been defended; that's what characterizes a nontitle bout.--Emaster 00:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Using the main wikipedia or its features

To prevent discussions from being scattered on various pages, the Talkback and Usertalkback templates come in handy and could be adopted for this wiki. For important messages the Sitenotice template could be used.--Emaster 03:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Some boxer pages, e.g. that of James J. Corbett, incorporate text from articles in the main wikipedia, where it is frequently revised so that only linking to corresponding main wikipedia articles seems to be sensitve. However, if some boxer pages link to corresponding articles in the main wikipedia, shouldn't all boxer pages do that? And are these interwiki links really desirable given how well-known wikipedia is so that users will probably think of entering it themselves?--Emaster 21:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The following templates play a role in citations in the main wiki:

They would also aid citing in this wiki and could be adapted.

--Emaster 00:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Categories

In which order should categories be placed on wiki pages? Couldn't they be sorted automatically irrespective of the order in which they've been entered?

The death code ("<deaths>year</deaths>"), which lists the deaths of boxing-related people in a calendar year in chronological order, has been inserted into the deaths by year categories, which begin with the year 2005. The categories also list those pages in alphabetical order the respective category code ("Category:year Deaths") has been entered into.

How about creating deaths by year categories for previous years, too?

Supervisors, inspectors, time-keepers and other groups of officials could also be included in their own specific categories besides being listed in the generic Officials category.

Possible further categories: "Category:World Champions who lost/did not win their professional debuts"; "Category:Living World Champions"; Categories containing World Title Fights:

Title fights sorted by year or country?

The Title Fights in 2006 and World Title Fights Held in Canada lists could be further developed and taken as examples for lists representing world title fights sorted by year or country respectively or category code could be inserted into fight pages instead ("Category:World Title Fights in Year"; "Category:World Title Fights held in Country").--Emaster 00:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

In the case of the USA subcategories could be created for states ("Category:World Title Fights held in State").--Emaster 00:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The Ring Magazine/Lineal Title

Instead of the titles awarded by the four major sanctioning bodies (WBA, WBC, IBF, and WBO), some boxing observers recognize the The Ring title or the unofficial lineal title. Shouldn't corresponding lineages, title fights lists, and succession boxes on boxer and fight pages be created to represent theses alternative concepts? The Current champions table already includes the The Ring title whereas BoxRec does not cover it at all. The lineal title does not appear in BoxRec as well, at least as far as the sanctioning body era is concerned.--Emaster 22:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Interesting idea. Would you propose keeping track only starting from the recent incarnation of the Ring title, or going back to the initial incarnation?--Reenthelawman 22:41, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I do not even know of two different incarnations. I just noticed that, for instance, HBO commentators avoid mentioning the sanctioning bodies' names as do other members of the media, who seem to become more and more upset with the sanctioning bodies' policies.
On the other hand, The Ring is only a magazine with a long tradition owned by GBP and its titles tend to be vacant. As do lineal titles, which are unofficial and maybe it is hard to determine in which fights they've been at stake as they depend on general recognition.
I personally go by sanctioning bodies' titles (in spite of super championships, interim titles, and the recess status of champions), but their support seems to decline so that I started this discussion.
--Emaster 00:01, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. As much as I despise the sanctioning bodies' titles, they have the advantage of being easy to follow in terms of lineage. I think as long as the industry (not TV, but the fighters themselves) continues to use the alphabet belts, so should the encyclopedia.--Reenthelawman 03:58, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Outcome of discussions to be demonstrated

The results of discussions on talk pages should be presented on the help page to point them out to all editors. How many editors of which status (normal, sysop, bureaucrat) have to take part in a discussion so that its outcome is binding on every editor?--Emaster 12:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

How do champions lose their titles when losing to overweight challengers or in nontitle matches?

The champions of some sanctioning bodies lose their titles if they lose to overweight challengers or in nontitle matches. Do they lose their titles in the ring or by being stripped of them? In my opinion they are stripped of their titles because losing a title in the ring does not only mean that the champion has been defeated but also that his title has been handed over to the winner of the fight. The latter does not happen if the title holder loses to an overweight opponent or in a nontitle fight. Instead, the title becomes vacant, i.e. is declared vacant, i.e. the champion is stripped of his title. The reason that the title holder has been stripped is the fact that he has lost a fight, of course, but that is just what causes the sanctioning body to strip the champion of his title. The way the NABF Welterweight Champion lineage looks depends on the answer to this question.

Either:

No.
Champion
Reign Began Reign Ended
Defenses
37 Steve Martinez 2005 Apr 28 2005 Nov 7 -
38 Oscar Diaz 2006 Jun 14 2006 Nov 10 -


Or:

No.
Champion
Reign Began Reign Ended
Defenses
37 Steve Martinez 2005 Apr 28 2005 Nov 7 S -
38 Oscar Diaz 2006 Jun 14 2006 Nov 10 -


--Emaster 00:49, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Content of boxer/fight pages

Is it really desirable to have encyclopaedia editor-written texts on boxer/fight pages or should only collections of links to biographies or fight reports on other sites be provided? There's always the danger of violating the Neutral Point of View-rule or copyrights.--Emaster 21:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Content of succession boxes

Both title and title fight succession boxes should either only be created for world titles awarded by major sanctioning bodies or, if the successions of minor (world) titles, other distinctions such as The Ring's awards or amateur accomplishments are to be displayed in boxes, too, they should be kept separate from those boxes which represent major world titles as is the case with the boxes on Billy Costello's wiki page. The IBO title boxes which have been inserted should be separated, too.

--Emaster 21:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

The matter is also being discussed here.--Emaster 14:25, 31 January 2012 (CST)

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