Please sign all comments, and enter them in the appropriate section, or if there is not one create another one. Unless you commented in error, please do not delete your text. I would prefer that the discussion remain here, as a record of what has transpired, and for possible future reference.--Matt Tegen 14:37, 17 Jan 2006 (CST)
For older discussions see: User talk:Matt Tegen/Archive1
- 1 Venues & Clubs
- 2 Talk/Discussion Pages
- 3 International Boxing Council
- 4 Fight Codes
- 5 Lennox Lewis page
- 6 Maybe the following talk pages require editing/deleting
- 7 Answer to the Sysop question
- 8 Deleting certain fight pages?
- 9 Hugh Pat Floyd
- 10 Title succession boxes
- 11 "Retired" vs. "Vacated"
- 12 Issues now discussed on other pages
- 13 Quincy Daniels
- 14 World Champion Category Text
- 15 Joe Smallwood
- 16 Alexander Abraham
- 17 Card in Brossard (Quebec) of July 8
- 18 Sergey Sorokin
- 19 Deaths
- 20 Brizel
- 21 Ring Titles
- 22 Canadian Lightweight Title Bouts
- 23 Are Blows Counts To Difficult For Boxrec ?
- 24 Southpaw or orthodox world champions?
- 25 Canadian Flyweight Championship Bout
- 26 punchstats
- 27 Canadian Flyweight Title
- 28 Tremayne Johnson
- 29 Show Code
Venues & Clubs
I think boxing clubs (gyms) should be separate from venues or old athletic clubs that staged bouts. I moved the category to gyms. I think the category is poorly named anyway, it should probably be "Boxing Venues".--Matt Tegen 12:46, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
Matt, why cannot people use the talk and discussion sections of pages to post their opinions about the subject of the page and to "discuss" it? To get aboard their soapbox if they so choose? Just wondering --Ric 17:35, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
He isn't discussing the contents of the article or how to improve it, which is what the talk page should be about. He is complaining about the number of weight divisons. I'd prefer to not encourage soapboxing, because I don't want the contributions to the wiki to become people opineing on different subjects on the talk pages. See:  for Wikipedia's guidelines.--Matt Tegen 18:44, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
International Boxing Council
Mat, I will not do name change, however if you check old newspapers you will know that they were called the International Boxing Club, headed by Jim Norris, Truman Gibson (secretary) and few others and that was the official name. I did inform Ric, it is up to you guys to decide if some articles deserve to be correct/ed or not. I do have pdf files with that name but due to copyright laws I will not share with anybody outside my circle.
Hey Matt, just wondering what I can do to figure out a fight code without the "blue books" that used to link from boxrec.com fight pages. Also, is the removal of the blue book links a permanent change with the new update? Sure hope not... (Sweetscientsist wrote)
No, it's not permanent. You may just want to be patient and wait.--Matt Tegen 21:14, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
Lennox Lewis page
gene tunney did not defeat every fighter he faced as a pro. he fought to a draw with tommy gavigan, fought to nc with renault, and technically fought to a no-decision with johnny risko.
riddick bowe has not defeated every fighter either. had a no-contest with buster mathis jr.
only marciano and johansson should be listed. the only current title holder would be chagaev that has defeated every opponent.
Maybe the following talk pages require editing/deleting
--Emaster 17:50, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
Answer to the Sysop question
I should say that English is not my native language and I have no access to sources, which means that I could basically only continue to compare data within the database trying to find inaccuracies and errors. If that is no problem, I would like to become a Sysop, of course. If it is, I'm looking forward to going on as a common user.--Emaster 13:29, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
The database should be very accurate, particularly on dates. It's more likely that someone would see an error there, and inform us of it in the forum, than someone seeing an error in the wiki, as you are doing. I would suggest you fix it yourself, unless you have good reason to doubt that the record database is wrong.--Matt Tegen 13:55, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Deleting certain fight pages?
Some fight pages do not provide other information than the BoxRec database: Only the fight code is inserted, only the fact that a certain bout was the fighter's pro debut is mentioned (which is obvious assuming that the boxer's BoxRec Fight Record is complete) or only details are given which can be found in the BoxRec database, too. Thus clicking on these fight pages will not supply the users with further information (assuming that they are entering the fight page from the BoxRec database, which should be the usual case) so that deleting them seems to be a good idea (to save the users' time). On the other hand, editors might want to add more information to these pages in the future so that having deleted them would cause more work.
Wladimir Klitschko vs. Fabio Eduardo Moli to be compared with Wladimir Klitschko in the BoxRec database
(I think providing the opportunity to click on the boxers' and the officials' names or on a category is not "enough" to create a fight page as users probably hope to find additional information when clicking on a "blue book" bout comment icon.)
I agree, I don't see why you need to create a page, when all you add is what is already appearing in BoxRec. I know I only create pages when I have comments about the bout to make. You should ask JollyDee why he created all those pages.--Matt Tegen 18:46, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
So shall pages containing information which does not exceed what can be found in BoxRec be deleted? And what about the case described in the last paragraph of my comment above?--Emaster 15:04, 2 October 2007 (CDT)
If you don't see ANY additional information in the wiki, than can be found in BoxRec, then delete it.--Matt Tegen 15:58, 2 October 2007 (CDT)
I know I'm coming in late on this debate, but I do see some value in certain pages that contain no additional information (in comparaison to what appears in the database). Title fights are a good example. A number of editors have devoted significant time to create tables for title fights and have included links to the wiki books within those tables (see one I recently created here).
While I agree that a user that gets to the wiki blue book from the BoxRec database will not find any additional information in a simple "fight code page", the same cannot be said for the user who reaches that page from the encyclopaedia. The latter doesn't have direct access to the database (its a couple of clicks away).
For the same reason, I believe that simple "boxer code pages" have some value as they enable the creation of links from the encyclopaedia.
It's probably too late, as I see that you've been implementing the policy above, but I wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.--Reenthelawman 19:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
It's not too late. I was even going to express the same thoughts but was beaten to the punch.
Users who are watching BoxRec boxer pages do not benefit from boxer and fight pages in the encyclopaedia which merely show code-generated information as these data can already be found on the BoxRec boxer pages themselves. When such users click on open blue book icons, they don't gain further information, but lose time instead.
On the other hand, users who are reading in the encyclopaedia benefit from links to those pages as even code-generated data are additional information from their perspective.
How can this conflict of interests be resolved? Assuming that fight and boxer pages have been moved to proper titles, pages of the form "Fight:12345" and "Human:12345" have become redirect pages connecting the fight and boxer pages to which they redirect to BoxRec. These redirects ought to be deleted so that the blue book icons close. Thus BoxRec users would not open encyclopaedia pages with no additional data any more while encyclopaedia users would still be provided with links to boxer and fight pages which merely show code-generated information.
This procedure would conjure up the danger of duplicate pages though. When an editor sees a closed blue book icon he might start editing it and a duplicate page would finally be created. If he then tried to move the newly created page to a title which exactly agrees with the title of an already existing duplicate page, there would be a notification and the editor would probably merge the pages. But still reorganization would be required and some bits of information entered on the newer page might be the same which had already been shown on the older page so that the editor would have done superfluous work. To save him this trouble there could be guidelines on the Help page telling editors to first find out if the fight or boxer page he wants to work on already exists by using the search box. If an editor finds such a page he is to create a corresponding redirect page, which will open the blue book icon, and edit the page he has found.--Emaster 01:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm more opposed to the PetePod (Red) edits that seem to be done for no apparent purpose. Edits that are for a constructive purpose such as yours are fine, if they are in the context of a project such as yours.--Matt Tegen 05:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Hugh Pat Floyd
What do think, is this is also him ? http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=405484&cat=referee
JohnShep 19:59, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
I think it probably is, since Hugh Pat Floyd was from London, and it looks like the referee worked out of London.--Matt Tegen 10:46, 1 October 2007 (CDT)
Title succession boxes
Soon I'd like to go over the wiki pages of world champions adding title succession boxes where they are missing (as far as WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO titles are concerned) and correcting them where they do not agree with what the BoxRec database says. I assume interim championships are not to be mentioned in those boxes as they do not occur in the lists of title lineages either.
What I've noticed while taking a look at those pages in advance is that in the middle box of a title succession box the dash between the dates that mark the beginning and the end of a champion's reign often lacks a space before it (or there is a space behind it where there should be none).
An example is Jesse James Leija's succession box, which looks as follows up to now:
| WBC Super Featherweight Champion
7 May 1994– 17 Sep 1994
Should a space be both before and after the dash?:
| WBC Super Featherweight Champion
7 May 1994 – 17 Sep 1994
Or should there be no space around the dash?:
| WBC Super Featherweight Champion
7 May 1994–17 Sep 1994
There should be spaces around the dash, I think.--Matt Tegen 15:35, 30 October 2007 (CDT)
"Retired" vs. "Vacated"
Matt, would you mind replying to Emaster's question to me regarding "Retired" vs. "Vacated"? Thanks in advance. --Ric 20:04, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
I don't want to cause a fuss with my little questions; the latest of them are on Ric's talk page, which I'm simply going to handle as follows unless I'll receive other instructions:
1. If a champion has vacated his title and really never fought again he retired.
2. If a champion has vacated his title, but returned to the ring later he vacated his title.--Emaster 21:57, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
If a fighter said he was retiring, thereby giving up his title, he retired in my book. In the case of Ali, his third title reign ended by retirement, he wasn't stripped or he didn't abandon his title. I know when I added many of those title boxes, I took care to note whether someone retired or vacated. Also, I have been corrected by others who have caught my mistakes. If you have questions you should be able to find a lot of stuff through a google search and a little digging. If not, then ask, somebody here can probably figure it out, unless it is some of the recent shenanigans that the alphabet soup game pull off.--Matt Tegen 23:00, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
Your explanation of Ali's case provides the definition I sought for; my simple definiton offered above is therefore not applicable. Whenever I see differing statements regarding the question "retired or vacated?" or "vacated or stripped" respectively while comparing the lists of title lineages with the title succession boxes on boxer pages I'm going to perform a google search to find out which statement was correct.--Emaster 10:41, 2 November 2007 (CDT)
Issues now discussed on other pages
Code and resulting data
Boxers/Fights missing in BoxRec
Which fights were for the WBA or the WBC heavyweight title?
More fights for vacant world titles?
- Fights for vacant or nonvacant world titles?
- Category talk:World Champions By Weight Class#Inconsistent treatment of inaugural title fights by BoxRec and title lineage listings
--Emaster 22:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The record and biography of the following boxer:
actually represent two people. Quincey Daniels, the 1960 Olympian, made his pro debut in 1965 against Frank Jennings; they both weighed 145 1/4, according to AP. The other Daniels turned pro in 1970, he was 22 at the time. Could you split these two records and make the necessary corrections?
Thank you very much in advance!
World Champion Category Text
Matt, please see the discussion today between Emaster and me. What do you suggest the text say? Something like, perhaps: "A listing of those who have held a welterweight (or whatever division) world title, as recognized by one of the [[:Category:Sanctioning Bodies|four major sanctioning bodies]]." --Ric 18:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I would say "generally recognized", which of course means the current "major" four, and whatever else constituted "major" in the past (NBA/NYSAC)--Matt Tegen 23:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Matt,trying to change hometown of Joe Smallwood to Wilmington, DE, doesn't work, Bert
Don't know what to say. I don't understand enought about how the BoxRec database works with the wiki.--Matt Tegen 20:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Alexander Abraham being arrested for kicking Miranda in the head is apparently a hoax. See: http://www.fightnews.com/fightnews_2/headlines//EkEuEyyZyAVgXPdQgb.html --Fosho 14:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Card in Brossard (Quebec) of July 8
Matt, I see you've erased my entries posting the weights of all the fighters following the weigh-in for this card. Any reason why I shouldn't have done that? I usually post the weights on fight day, and return after the fight to complete the description of the fight. Let me know. Thanks. --Reenthelawman
I didn't understand that you were going to return later and write reports. I assumed that you were just listing weights in the wiki, which I think is a waste, since the weights are available on BoxRec.--Matt Tegen 00:06, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok. I apologize for that Matt, I was just trying to cheat a little... I've now recreated the Pier Olivier Cote vs. Juan Carlos Pastrana page, as the bout just ended with a TKO2 victory for Cote. Going forward I'll wait to have some non-basic information before creating an entry.
Thank you for answering my question. --Reenthelawman
Matt, there appear to be two separate pages for Sergey Sorokin. The first here: http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Human:92870, and the second here: http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Sergey_Sorokin. I believe the first one should be deleted.--Reenthelawman 20:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Matt, we have a page Deaths in 2008 http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Deaths_in_2008 and a category 2008 Deaths http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Category:2008_Deaths, it seems to me that this is unnecessary ? JohnShep 12:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The Deaths in 2008 is sort of like a short obituary, ala wikipedia's recent deaths. If we ditch the category or the list and just go to the automation, I think people are going to not bother with adding the details and creating the bio pages.--Matt Tegen 18:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Fairy Nuff :-) JohnShep 21:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Is there anything to do about this guy. His subjective text is driving me nuts! Rvk2007 17:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate his energy and desire to add information. But I'm in agreement that he needs to stop with the subjective test. I don't think communication works with him. We can either keep trying to explain our feeling to him, or tell him that we will give him a short ban to get his attention.--Matt Tegen 18:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
For what its worth, he sent me a nice e-mail the other day apologizing for some of his edits to the Sebastien Demers vs. Dionisio Miranda fight. He's certainly misguided, but he means well. --Reenthelawman 19:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
You're right Matt. I'm getting quite discouraged at this point as well. I was hoping the message was getting through, but it appears I was wrong. I'm really short on answers at this point. --Reenthelawman 20:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Matt, I'm now beyond discouraged with Brizel. I'm to the point where I strongly recommend banning the guy. Clearly, he's not interested in making an effort.--Reenthelawman 01:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you. I've tended to be inactive from BoxRec from time-to-time lately, but I find myself looking over his edits when I do check in. Reasoning with him has been pointless, as he has not even acknowledged the people trying to reason with him. I will ban him for a month, and see if he makes any progress when he returns or starts a dialog to try and work through the issues people have with his edits.--Matt Tegen 15:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Matt. I think you made the right decision. Nothing else was working.--Reenthelawman 23:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Well Matt, it seems our friend is back to his old ways. He inexplicably erased all of the content Sweetscientist and I had created for the Humberto Soto vs. Benoit Gaudet page and added his usual brand of "objective" analysis.--Reenthelawman 16:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
In researching fighters recognized as champions by Ring Magazine and awarded the Ring Title for their respective weight classes, I cannot help but notice that boxrec and the encyclopedia do not mention these titles at all. Is this by design because they are not believed to be from a legitimate sanctioning body or is it simply that the information has not been added? It would seem to some that the Ring titles were as prestigious as those of the big three. Yet no pages containing Ring title lineages or the succession boxes are done for fighters winning these belts. Is it wanted to be kept this way and would this information likely be deleted? or is it information just waiting to be added? Thanks - Ben Griffin --Sweetscientist 22:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
We have not recognized the recent incarnation of the Ring titles, and therefore don't recognize the Ring's older titles, though they usually match the so-called "World title" of the time.--Matt Tegen 00:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Canadian Lightweight Title Bouts
Matt, thank you for bringing those fights to my attention. The Talhan fight makes perfect sense as he had won the title in 1990 and that would have been his first defense.
I'm more puzzled by the second fight, as the CBF records show Grant as being the champion uninterrupted from 1992 to 1995 (that said, they are not particularly reliable). The easiest thing to do is to contact Grant himself, which is exactly what I will do tomorrow. Maybe he can shed light on the situation.--Reenthelawman 05:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Are Blows Counts To Difficult For Boxrec ?
As boxing research has grown, counting blows has become a useful tool for understanding the totality of a bout. Why are some boxrec editors deleting such information? You have the best site for disseminating information. It can be done usually in one or two lines. What is the problem?-- Dr Data Box 23:45,3 August, 2009.
Nobody understands what controls and events area. As it stands right now they lack credibility with people who use this site. People question what it is exactly these statistics mean. You need to raise the level of awareness of what these stats are. I know you have published this in magazines and IBRO in the past, but I think today's boxing fan either is not aware of your statistics or gives no credibility to them.--Matt Tegen 14:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
They are explained in Wikipedia. Don't you mean you don't want to consider them? Why delete the blows, a very legitimate statistic, over a personal whim?
I'm not deleting the punch stats, as that is a statistic the general boxing public understands. If I am, apologize for the unintended mistake. The problem with controls and events is that the general boxing public is clueless to their meaning. Nobody else, aside from you, is coming in the wiki and posting in these stats after bouts. I would think for their to be some credibility we would expect to see others understand the metrics and put them, and not have people asking what it is that controls and events are, as is the case now. Baseball for example, has a lot of stats. Everyone understands ERA or Slugging percentage, and if you are maybe a little more tuned in, OPS. But the general public doesn't understand VORP (Value over replacement player) or DERA (defense adjusted ERA). Unless more people understand what you are doing, you really are almost doing this for your own amusement.--Matt Tegen 02:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I think I understand what he's doing but consider it hopelessly subjective - you'd have to be a mindreader to make it work. You can't have one person sitting in front of the television / youtube trying to figure what it was that the boxer intended to do and than present his findings as - baseball-like - statistics.--Wouter 06:44, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Southpaw or orthodox world champions?
Matt, you added the Southpaw World Champions category on the boxer pages of the following boxers: Adonis Rivas, Cassius Baloyi, Celestino Caballero, and Duilio Loi. Their stances are all registered as orthodox on their BoxRec profiles, though.--Emaster 18:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Then delete the category. We must have had the wrong stance at the time.--Matt Tegen 22:44, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I thought that maybe the database was wrong. However, I'll remove the categories from the boxer pages.--Emaster 23:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Canadian Flyweight Championship Bout
Thank you Matt. Much appreciated.--Reenthelawman 20:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
hey man it took me forever to track down those stats, I had to separate that from the bullshit fan forums punchstats, until i got the fight in danish, and the tv commentators read it out, my danish isn't great but i can now confirm those stats i posted are 100% accurate
Canadian Flyweight Title
Thank you very much for the information Matt. I've corrected the lineage and entered the bouts accordingly. Great research by the way. --Reenthelawman 17:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Matt, you keep erasing Tremayne Johnson's profile, saying no record of fighter but he's not a fighter he is a trainer, so please stop erasing him.
Ok, I see that now. Please create his bio in a format consistent with how other non-boxer biographies are written. I think you confused me, by trying to make the biography look like a boxers, which made me think that you were creating a page for a boxer that did not exist.--Matt 23:39, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi Matt, I have introduced a show code now (still working on it) see http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Show:223657
Cheers, JohnShep 17:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)