under appreciated things in the sport

[margaret thatcher]

can be anything, an ability, an accomplishment, importance of ring size , a boxer etc

one that stands out to me as: the ability to keep throwing punches steadily and not being deterred even when you are missing or the other guy is on the move. it's as much a mental ability as anything.

one guy who does this well is julio cesar martinez

other guys, it's like they are embarrased by missing and so don't throw and just follow the guy around doing nothing. then they are fighting on the other guys terms and aren't even exploiting the common bias to favour aggression. i think yarde recently wouldn't let his hands go because he's a bit vain and felt embarrased missing

[margaret thatcher]

the career/story of 1 legged world title challenger craig bodzianowski---i hadnt even heard about him till very recently

people call joe hughes inspiring for limited use of his right hand, but this guy had to fight with a fake f@cking leg

[margaret thatcher]

somehow the jab is still underappreciated i think, i feel like more and more we don't see dedicated jabbers

[lazboy]

Going on from what you said about missing punches...What I think is underappreciated from a fans perspective is the ability to land cleanly on an opponent - especially a higher ranked fighter. It's just not that easy and takes real skill. Fans just expect the fighter to put more effort in and land and throw more.

Completely agree also the level of mental toughness to continue throwing when you are missing, etc. Perfect example was Kakatani who KOed Verdejo. He looked inept until he started landing from rd 6. Strong character to persevere when he was clearly out skilled and hurt.

I also think pace is not appreciated. Boxers use two energy systems, essentially sprinting and endurance. You can't be flat out sprinting.

Edit: actually think there's 3 energy systems at play.

[margaret thatcher]

another i'll add: people underappreciate/underrate how important the abc trinket bauble intergalactic belts are

[Jimmy2020]

Edit: actually think there's 3 energy systems at play.

You have hit on something that is indeed hugely under appreciated.

Pace setting and how it relates to the various energy systems.

Let's take Tyson Fury. I believe the only way he can be beaten (other than a Rahman/McCall chinning) is by a fighter who can force him into operating using his glycolytic system. Tyson has a good oxidative system (aerobic engine), and the muscle fibres that support that. He is also masterful at setting the pace. Hence he doesn't struggle doing the distance. Even though he isn't particularly powerful, his sheer size, bulk and technique means he carries a respectable bang up to world level when he lets flurries go using his ATP-PC system (high power/short duration). The ATP-PC systems recovers relatively quickly.

I suspect his glycolytic system (moderate power/moderate duration) is a weak point. Keeping someone using this system predominantly is how you get them 'breathing out of their arse' when they are not suitably prepared.

Easier said than done with a guy who is such a masterful boxer but it is the way to beat him IMO. Examples of heavyweights with decent glycolytic systems are Holmes, Ali, Holyfield, Ibeabuchi and Marciano,

[Counter-puncher]

can be anything, an ability, an accomplishment, importance of ring size , a boxer etc

one that stands out to me as: the ability to keep throwing punches steadily and not being deterred even when you are missing or the other guy is on the move. it's as much a mental ability as anything.

one guy who does this well is julio cesar martinez

other guys, it's like they are embarrased by missing and so don't throw and just follow the guy around doing nothing. then they are fighting on the other guys terms and aren't even exploiting the common bias to favour aggression. i think yarde recently wouldn't let his hands go because he's a bit vain and felt embarrased missing

[Counter-puncher]

somehow the jab is still underappreciated i think, i feel like more and more we don't see dedicated jabbers

the Jab to the body is hugely under-rated. People watching act like it has no effect, for a start (quite apart from the opportunities that the punch can open up) whereas a really good jab to the body can absolutely debilitate your opponent*)

saw a fight the other night, I can't remember who it was, even, but the one dude was really driving that jab into the solar plex

and would you believe it, once he'd got that landed a few times, the jab to the head and overhand right just naturally followed

*the best most perfect timed single punch I ever threw was a jab to the body. for what that's worth

[Counter-puncher]

I suspect his glycolytic system (moderate power/moderate duration) is a weak point. Keeping someone using this system predominantly is how you get them 'breathing out of their arse' when they are not suitably prepared.

good post; how do you do that (with Fury)? constant tempo at moderate intensity?

[Counter-puncher]

one of my big hobby-horses (related to energy conservation):

some fighters fight loose and relaxed, some fight tense

fairly seldom do commentators or fans seem to connect the latter with poor stamina and the former with good stamina, but it seems to me to overwhelmingly be the case

[THEBUTCH]

Mine's more to do with the concept from just about all fans, casual to the enthusiast, that "top boxers don't fight each other these days".

By and large this is boll0cks

Top quality fighters, and while I'm at it, top quality boxers with unbeaten records ARE matched up fairly regularly and have been for some years now.

Yes, some have eluded us, but to hear how a lot of fans carry on you'd think we got a big fight once every few years, which is simply not true !

Also, at the lower levels, unbeaten prospects are boxing each other now more than I can ever remember ! It must help having a record number of licensed boxers, but the fact is these type of fights are happening.

Yep, this is a very under appreciated aspect of the sport.

[Counter-puncher]

Mine's more to do with the concept from just about all fans, casual to the enthusiast, that "top boxers don't fight each other these days".

By and large this is boll0cks

Top quality fighters, and while I'm at it, top quality boxers with unbeaten records ARE matched up fairly regularly and have been for some years now.

Yes, some have eluded us, but to hear how a lot of fans carry on you'd think we got a big fight once every few years, which is simply not true !

Also, at the lower levels, unbeaten prospects are boxing each other now more than I can ever remember ! It must help having a record number of licensed boxers, but the fact is these type of fights are happening.

Yep, this is a very under appreciated aspect of the sport.

ha. I do this myself, it's the legacy of Mayweather-Pac, it broke me

[Jimmy2020]

I suspect his glycolytic system (moderate power/moderate duration) is a weak point. Keeping someone using this system predominantly is how you get them 'breathing out of their arse' when they are not suitably prepared.

good post; how do you do that (with Fury)? constant tempo at moderate intensity?

Yes. The way Holyfield forced opponents to work at his pace is what I'd look to. He had that incessant rhythm, it's very tiring to fight against unless you are prepared. It's the sort of pace/effort a proper athlete (not just a Saturday plodder) uses for 5km, 10km runs, 60 minute time trials on the bike (but no more really). You are essentially on the very cusp of getting serious lactate build-up all the time and if my threshold is higher than yours, you are fucked and vice versa.

[Counter-puncher]

Usyk in the best-case for him would do the same

[Counter-puncher]

I suspect his glycolytic system (moderate power/moderate duration) is a weak point. Keeping someone using this system predominantly is how you get them 'breathing out of their arse' when they are not suitably prepared.

good post; how do you do that (with Fury)? constant tempo at moderate intensity?

Yes. The way Holyfield forced opponents to work at his pace is what I'd look to. He had that incessant rhythm, it's very tiring to fight against unless you are prepared. It's the sort of pace/effort a proper athlete (not just a Saturday plodder) uses for 5km, 10km runs, 60 minute time trials on the bike (but no more really). You are essentially on the very cusp of getting serious lactate build-up all the time and if my threshold is higher than yours, you are fucked and vice versa.

it's an interesting point to consider, fighters who maybe didn't look like 'pressure fighters' in the classic sense but always seem to end up winning on their fitness

Brian Mitchell was definitely one with exactly that rhythm. always doing something

[Jimmy2020]

Usyk in the best-case for him would do the same

Yes.

Joshua's improvements of late (and there are many) at root rely on him being more patient. This is great against most as he'll eventually get to them with his power but it's actually playing into Tyson's hands.

Absolutely Usyk does have what it takes to set a pace, which is why Fury probably won't fight him, it's also one of the reasons I don't think he'd fight Ruiz. If he did, though, expect a lot of clinching and weight bearing down on Usyk at every given opportunity. That should do the trick and allow Tyson the opportunity to club him into submission in time.

Re your other post: absolutely. Particularly against fighters who are used to setting the pace. Throw them off with busyness does their heads (and bodies in).

[Counter-puncher]

Usyk in the best-case for him would do the same

Yes.

Joshua's improvements of late (and there are many) at root rely on him being more patient. This is great against most as he'll eventually get to them with his power but it's actually playing into Tyson's hands.

Absolutely Usyk does have what it takes to set a pace, which is why Fury probably won't fight him, it's also one of the reasons I don't think he'd fight Ruiz. If he did, though, expect a lot of clinching and weight bearing down on Usyk at every given opportunity. That should do the trick and allow Tyson the opportunity to club him into submission in time.

Re your other post: absolutely. Particularly against fighters who are used to setting the pace. Throw them off with busyness does their heads (and bodies in).

how does your energy-system theory relate to fighters being loose/relaxed or otherwise? does Fury look loose and relaxed because he's constantly able to operate at the whatever-it-was-you-just-said level where he's comfortable? is that why he looks so relaxed or is that a separate skill/habit of his?

[Counter-puncher]

actually Usyk is a great example of someone who wears people down without seeming to do so physically

and yeah, if he fought Fury he'd be getting the forearm on the back of the neck and to the throat all night at every opportunity

[mickey1975]

Boxing brain. You can just tell who’s got it and who hasn’t. Fury is the ultimate in this. Nothing is forced.
A good corner... we’ve seen a few poor ones recently and the boxer looks lost in there.

[Jimmy2020]

Usyk in the best-case for him would do the same

Yes.

Joshua's improvements of late (and there are many) at root rely on him being more patient. This is great against most as he'll eventually get to them with his power but it's actually playing into Tyson's hands.

Absolutely Usyk does have what it takes to set a pace, which is why Fury probably won't fight him, it's also one of the reasons I don't think he'd fight Ruiz. If he did, though, expect a lot of clinching and weight bearing down on Usyk at every given opportunity. That should do the trick and allow Tyson the opportunity to club him into submission in time.

Re your other post: absolutely. Particularly against fighters who are used to setting the pace. Throw them off with busyness does their heads (and bodies in).

how does your energy-system theory relate to fighters being loose/relaxed or otherwise? does Fury look loose and relaxed because he's constantly able to operate at the whatever-it-was-you-just-said level where he's comfortable? is that why he looks so relaxed or is that a separate skill/habit of his?

Some of that and some of what Mickey says about boxing brain and confidence in your ability. If you can set the pace, take control of the centre of the ring and let shots go in a nice relaxed fashion when you want to, you can box all night without it being tiring.

Don't have confidence, have to operate at someone else's pace whilst you are revved up and aggressive, you are screwed.

[vidal]

I've often watched the first couple of rounds of a fight and thought one fighter was better or worse than the other only to find the situation to flip later in the fight.

It's always impressed me in boxing, how fighters can have the mental fortitude to be seemingly not as good as their opponent and yet not have it affect them.

It seems quite unique to the sport to me.

[mickey1975]

I've often watched the first couple of rounds of a fight and thought one fighter was better or worse than the other only to find the situation to flip later in the fight.

It's always impressed me in boxing, how fighters can have the mental fortitude to be seemingly not as good as their opponent and yet not have it affect them.

It seems quite unique to the sport to me.

I knew John Docherty was getting beat two rounds in the other week.

[mickey1975]

Good matchmaking. Taylor is the standout, Dubious the worst high profile.

[littlepug]

somehow the jab is still underappreciated i think, i feel like more and more we don't see dedicated jabbers

the Jab to the body is hugely under-rated. People watching act like it has no effect, for a start (quite apart from the opportunities that the punch can open up) whereas a really good jab to the body can absolutely debilitate your opponent*)

saw a fight the other night, I can't remember who it was, even, but the one dude was really driving that jab into the solar plex

and would you believe it, once he'd got that landed a few times, the jab to the head and overhand right just naturally followed

*the best most perfect timed single punch I ever threw was a jab to the body. for what that's worth

The Tris Dixon interview with George Groves was interesting, Groves said for the Paul Smith fight he’d been working on doubling up the jab to head then body and then in reverse to body then head so switching it round each time and after a bit rather than follow the head jab with a body jab he’d follow it with a right hook, it worked perfectly and Smith totally fell for it.

[Counter-puncher]

somehow the jab is still underappreciated i think, i feel like more and more we don't see dedicated jabbers

the Jab to the body is hugely under-rated. People watching act like it has no effect, for a start (quite apart from the opportunities that the punch can open up) whereas a really good jab to the body can absolutely debilitate your opponent*)

saw a fight the other night, I can't remember who it was, even, but the one dude was really driving that jab into the solar plex

and would you believe it, once he'd got that landed a few times, the jab to the head and overhand right just naturally followed

*the best most perfect timed single punch I ever threw was a jab to the body. for what that's worth

The Tris Dixon interview with George Groves was interesting, Groves said for the Paul Smith fight he’d been working on doubling up the jab to head then body and then in reverse to body then head so switching it round each time and after a bit rather than follow the head jab with a body jab he’d follow it with a right hook, it worked perfectly and Smith totally fell for it.

Oscar vs Vargas is my favourite example, Vargas never got to grips with the angle and tempo/rhythm that jab was coming at him. feint jab to body/ jab to head, jab to head jab to body, feint to head/jab to body jab to head, etc etc etc all night, beautiful (eventually Oscar got him with that hook that started as a feinted jab to the body )