David Tua V Joe Frazier

[hhaehre]

mas·sa·cre (ms-kr)
n.
1. The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
2. The slaughter of a large number of animals.
3. Informal A severe defeat, as in a sports event.


The five world champions he beat

John Ruiz (two-time heavyweight champion)
Hasim Rahman (two-time heavyweight champion)
Fres Oquendo (two-time heavyweight title challenger)
Oleg Maskaev (former WBC heavyweight champion)
Michael Moorer (three-time heavyweight champion)

Michael Moorer is a 2 time HW champ.

Fres Oquendo shouldn't even be on the list.

The larger point is I don't think Tua would win but I don't think he would be massacred. That dude had and has a great chin.

I agree, not a massacre but I believe he would loose most of the rounds and possibly be stopped on his feet late in the fight.

[ThatOne]

Thank you. Certain posters act like I matched Joe Frazier up with Bruce Seldon or Axel Schulz.

[Syntax Error]

I concur that I don't think that Frazier would have decimated Tua, as David has one hell of chin, but in all honesty, Tua & Frazier are leagues apart.

Tua can be an exciting fighter when tremendous power, a great chin & a big heart, but he doesn't belong in the same county a Frazier in boxing terms.

He was overrated in the 90s, when we were all looking for a post Tyson era monster to devour Lewis, thus leading him into a challenge against the said Lewis & putting up one of the most inept challenges I've ever seen (even more shocking when you consider that many favoured him to win) & now he's being talked up again a whole 10 years later thanks to the dearth of talent in the HW division & I can see the same thing happening against either of the Klitschkos.

[ThatOne]

I concur that I don't think that Frazier would have decimated Tua, as David has one hell of chin, but in all honesty, Tua & Frazier are leagues apart.

Tua can be an exciting fighter when tremendous power, a great chin & a big heart, but he doesn't belong in the same county a Frazier in boxing terms.

He was overrated in the 90s, when we were all looking for a post Tyson era monster to devour Lewis, thus leading him into a challenge against the said Lewis & putting up one of the most inept challenges I've ever seen (even more shocking when you consider that many favoured him to win) & now he's being talked up again a whol 10 years later thanks to the dearth of talent in the HW division & I can see the same thing happening against either of the Klitschkos.

That's when Lenox said " "You have to bring more than power and a hairdo to beat me."

[gregor]

The five world champions he beat

John Ruiz (two-time heavyweight champion)
Hasim Rahman (two-time heavyweight champion)
Fres Oquendo (two-time heavyweight title challenger)
Oleg Maskaev (former WBC heavyweight champion)
Michael Moorer (three-time heavyweight champion)

Moorer was shot when he met Tua, and Tua's "win" (as well as another "draw") against Rahman are questionable at best. Oquendo, as you said, was not even titleholder. And, apart from impressive destruction of Ruiz, Tua struggled to win with most semi-skilled opponents (again, I do not count shot version of Moorer here). Even glass-chinnned Maskaev almost won the fight, Tua was just lucky there was some bogus title on stake so he had 2 rounds more of usually.

[ThatOne]

The five world champions he beat

John Ruiz (two-time heavyweight champion)
Hasim Rahman (two-time heavyweight champion)
Fres Oquendo (two-time heavyweight title challenger)
Oleg Maskaev (former WBC heavyweight champion)
Michael Moorer (three-time heavyweight champion)

Moorer was shot when he met Tua, and Tua's "win" (as well as another "draw") against Rahman are questionable at best. Oquendo, as you said, was not even titleholder. And, apart from impressive destruction of Ruiz, Tua struggled to win with most semi-skilled opponents (again, I do not count shot version of Moorer here). Even glass-chinnned Maskaev almost won the fight, Tua was just lucky there was some bogus title on stake so he had 2 rounds more of usually.

I'm not saying Tua is great. I just don't see a fighter with his chin being massacred.

[boxing_fanatic_87]

Joe Frazier is one of my all time favorite Heavyweights, but I think Tua is a bad style match for him, and I'd favor Tua to win by KO around the 8th.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The thought of what Frazier would do to Tua's body hasn't even crossed your mind, has it, ThatOne? LOL. A severe defeat is indeed what Tua is in for in this match-up. Work-rate & bodypunching are the difference. Tua's got a great chin, but he ain't, "tough" enough in the real sense of the word. Lewis stopped him in his tracks & made him wince with a bodyblow.

Your, "world champions" list is amateur stuff. Even though I've not seen much of you so far, & we've disagreed heartily, I somehow expect better.

[ThatOne]

The thought of what Frazier would do to Tua's body hasn't even crossed your mind, has it, ThatOne? LOL. A severe defeat is indeed what Tua is in for in this match-up. Work-rate & bodypunching are the difference. Tua's got a great chin, but he ain't, "tough" enough in the real sense of the word. Lewis stopped him in his tracks & made him wince with a bodyblow.

Your, "world champions" list is amateur stuff. Even though I've not seen much of you so far, & we've disagreed heartily, I somehow expect better.

I don't need ad hominem attacks or misinformed condescension because I have facts. Facts> ad hominem attacks and misinformed condesescension.


"Work rate .... is the difference"

-Good Night Irene


Res ipsa loquitur


"In his 1997 fight with Ike Ibeabuchi, the two fighters (Ibeabuchi and Tua) combined to set the record for most punches thrown in a heavyweight fight on record."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Tua

[ThatOne]

And I respectfully submit if you don't like my list of heavyweight champions you take it up with the governing authorities who establish them.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Listing a shot Michael Moorer, or third-rate Fres Oquendo etc. is weak. Don't hide behind sanctioning bodies & half-truths (yeah, Tua beat Moorer, & Spinks beat Ali --- nothing more to that story, is there? Hardly, & you'd be the first one to remind us just how washed-up Ali was).

Ibeabuchi fought nothing like Frazier. They're assaults are completely different. Not to mention the irritating little tid-bit that Ibeabuchi shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Frazier --- or perhaps you disagree with that, too?

[Ezzard]

Tua is a top fighter but he is limited. I agree though that because of styles Tua would be able to live with the ATG Frazier.

Joe's the better fighter by a couple of leagues but this would be exciting and a hard fought match.

I think Jezzamundo had it 9-5 minimum in rounds to Frazier and I'd go along with that.

[Ezzard]

The thought of what Frazier would do to Tua's body hasn't even crossed your mind, has it, ThatOne? LOL. A severe defeat is indeed what Tua is in for in this match-up. Work-rate & bodypunching are the difference. Tua's got a great chin, but he ain't, "tough" enough in the real sense of the word. Lewis stopped him in his tracks & made him wince with a bodyblow.

Your, "world champions" list is amateur stuff. Even though I've not seen much of you so far, & we've disagreed heartily, I somehow expect better.

I don't need ad hominem attacks or misinformed condescension because I have facts. Facts> ad hominem attacks and misinformed condesescension.


"Work rate .... is the difference"

-Good Night Irene


Res ipsa loquitur


"In his 1997 fight with Ike Ibeabuchi, the two fighters (Ibeabuchi and Tua) combined to set the record for most punches thrown in a heavyweight fight on record."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Tua

Is it true that Klitschko beat the record for punches thrown by a single fighter? this weekend just gone??

[ThatOne]

Dear Mr. Goodnight Irene:

Tua is thirty seven, still fighting, and still never stopped.

IMHO, saying a fighter who set the record for most punches in a single fight has a poor work rate is logically flawed

And if you think Joe Frazier would massacre David Tua there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

And I never commented on the quality of heavyweights Tua beat only that he beat them; your red herring about Leon Spinks nothwithstanding.

[ThatOne]

"Lewis stopped him in his tracks & made him wince with a bodyblow"

-GoodNightIrene

I remember Lennox Lewis, who I much admire, beating him in a boring fight but I don't know how much we can infer from how Tua did against a 6'5 giant who weighed 249 pounds and had a 84 inch reach when the boxer he is matched up with in this thread is a 5'11 inch boexer who weighed 210 pounds and had a 72 inch reach. Because of Lennox's height and reach advantage he had the luxury of landing bombs on Tua without getting bombed back. or not getting bombed back nearly as much. Joe Frazier would no such luxury. It's simple physics.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm changing my opinion on this fight, because I remember a man who fought with Tua's style, who also had tremendous heart and was very tough and pretty good power in his own right, manage to buckle Frazier's legs with a single shot before losing on cuts: Ron Stander. If Stander could buckle Frazier's legs early on, I dont see why Tua, who had more power and more ability than Stander, couldn't actually drop Frazier.

[ThatOne]

Comparing the 37-21-3 Ron Stander with the 50-3-1 David Tua is like comparing Jim Brown with Lorenzo Hampton.

[HomicideHenry]

Comparing the 37-21-3 Ron Stander with the 50-3-1 David Tua is like comparing Jim Brown with Lorenzo Hampton.

All I'm saying is if a poor man's Tua (in the sense that both were conditioned, tough, hard hitting, brawling type guys) could buckle Frazier's knees, then Tua certainly could put Frazier on his ass.

[dempseyfire]

Dear Mr. Goodnight Irene:

Tua is thirty seven, still fighting, and still never stopped.

IMHO, saying a fighter who set the record for most punches in a single fight has a poor work rate is logically flawed

And if you think Joe Frazier would massacre David Tua there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

And I never commented on the quality of heavyweights Tua beat only that he beat them; your red herring about Leon Spinks nothwithstanding.

One also has to take into account since the early part of this decade Tua hasn't faced one top heavyweight and has been on a long, extended tomato can of the year campaign, since that on average is how often he's been fighting. The last time he did, a fat Rahman knocked him down on his ass. Frazier would do the same.

Stander was a very limited guy but was a big puncher and pretty much came first first into Frazier winging bombs the whole first round. Tua has never been that type of fighter . .far less punches thrown, often falls asleep in the ring. Which is why the likes of David Izon were able to stand on the inside with Tua and have success for a good amount of time, it's also how he lost to Ibeabuchi.

Would it be a 'massacre' no but it would turn into a thorough beating towards the late rounds.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'm changing my opinion on this fight, because I remember a man who fought with Tua's style, who also had tremendous heart and was very tough and pretty good power in his own right, manage to buckle Frazier's legs with a single shot before losing on cuts: Ron Stander. If Stander could buckle Frazier's legs early on, I dont see why Tua, who had more power and more ability than Stander, couldn't actually drop Frazier.

Of course he could knock Frazier down. I'd be surprised if anyone disputes Tua had the punch to do so. I don't see him being competitive in this one down the stretch. He'd quit. Tua is not a fighter known for heart, to say the least. His, "effort" against Lewis (particularly after Lewis froze him with a shot to that ever-enlarging gut) proves to me, beyond reasonable doubt, he doesn't belong in the ring with Frazier.

Is it a hard fight in which Frazier takes some lumps? They were all hard fights, with Frazier's style. He took lumps in all of them. Tua is no stand-out. ThatOne keeps pointing out Tua's still not been stopped, & is still fighting.

Puh-lease. He's fighting whenever the blue moon shows its face & then, against scrubs & garbagemen. Fact is, he's never been stopped, & fact is, he's never even dreamed of being up against a fighter who would work him the way Frazier would. He quits on his stool before the final bell, guaranteed.

Tua against an out-of-shape Mercer would be far more interesting.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm changing my opinion on this fight, because I remember a man who fought with Tua's style, who also had tremendous heart and was very tough and pretty good power in his own right, manage to buckle Frazier's legs with a single shot before losing on cuts: Ron Stander. If Stander could buckle Frazier's legs early on, I dont see why Tua, who had more power and more ability than Stander, couldn't actually drop Frazier.

Of course he could knock Frazier down. I'd be surprised if anyone disputes Tua had the punch to do so. I don't see him being competitive in this one down the stretch. He'd quit. Tua is not a fighter known for heart, to say the least. His, "effort" against Lewis (particularly after Lewis froze him with a shot to that ever-enlarging gut) proves to me, beyond reasonable doubt, he doesn't belong in the ring with Frazier.
Is it a hard fight in which Frazier takes some lumps? They were all hard fights, with Frazier's style. He took lumps in all of them. Tua is no stand-out. ThatOne keeps pointing out Tua's still not been stopped, & is still fighting.

Puh-lease. He's fighting whenever the blue moon shows its face & then, against scrubs & garbagemen. Fact is, he's never been stopped, & fact is, he's never even dreamed of being up against a fighter who would work him the way Frazier would. He quits on his stool before the final bell, guaranteed.

Tua against an out-of-shape Mercer would be far more interesting.

I disagree, because Lewis and Frazier were two different kind of fighters altogether, so its hardly a basis for comparison. Lewis was 6'5" (I personally think he was taller than that) and 245 pounds with a 85" reach, Tua was a compact 5'10" and 230 pounds with a 75" reach or so. Lewis hardly gave him a chance to get on the inside---Frazier wouldnt of had that luxury, him and Tua would be on equal fighting ground, they'd have no choice but to go toe to toe.

['Frilla]

I'm changing my opinion on this fight, because I remember a man who fought with Tua's style, who also had tremendous heart and was very tough and pretty good power in his own right, manage to buckle Frazier's legs with a single shot before losing on cuts: Ron Stander. If Stander could buckle Frazier's legs early on, I dont see why Tua, who had more power and more ability than Stander, couldn't actually drop Frazier.

Of course he could knock Frazier down. I'd be surprised if anyone disputes Tua had the punch to do so. I don't see him being competitive in this one down the stretch. He'd quit. Tua is not a fighter known for heart, to say the least. His, "effort" against Lewis (particularly after Lewis froze him with a shot to that ever-enlarging gut) proves to me, beyond reasonable doubt, he doesn't belong in the ring with Frazier.
Is it a hard fight in which Frazier takes some lumps? They were all hard fights, with Frazier's style. He took lumps in all of them. Tua is no stand-out. ThatOne keeps pointing out Tua's still not been stopped, & is still fighting.

Puh-lease. He's fighting whenever the blue moon shows its face & then, against scrubs & garbagemen. Fact is, he's never been stopped, & fact is, he's never even dreamed of being up against a fighter who would work him the way Frazier would. He quits on his stool before the final bell, guaranteed.

Tua against an out-of-shape Mercer would be far more interesting.

I disagree, because Lewis and Frazier were two different kind of fighters altogether, so its hardly a basis for comparison. Lewis was 6'5" (I personally think he was taller than that) and 245 pounds with a 85" reach, Tua was a compact 5'10" and 230 pounds with a 75" reach or so. Lewis hardly gave him a chance to get on the inside---Frazier wouldnt of had that luxury, him and Tua would be on equal fighting ground, they'd have no choice but to go toe to toe.

Agreed

[Goodnight, Irene]

David Tua all the way.

Even tho, I came from a new generation of boxing, the sport has been changed dramitically and I believe no-one can
break the Iron Chin of David Tua.

He may lost to Lennox Lewis, but Lewis's game plan combination was jab and run for his life but i gotta give
respect for the long reigning, undisputed champion. Tua went the full round with him unlike Tyson and Holyfield (respect
to my 2 fav heavyweights of the world.) If he had fought pass champions in the 90's like McCall, Seldon, or Bruno
he would've dominated them in 30 sec.

Tua will K.0 Joe Frazier in the 3rd Round.

Holyfield did go the distance with Lewis. In fact, he did it more times than Tua (giving Lewis a far tougher go-around than Tua, in the case of their second meet). You also left out the fact that Holyfield & Tyson were each shop-worn, well past-it fighters, who met a Lewis at the peak of his powers. Tua was in his prime when he lost to Lewis so lopsidedly --- Holyfield & Tyson didn't have that luxury.

Tua didn't beat a single noteworthy Heavyweight in his entire career. He's not getting my vote against Frazier, no matter how well he matches up stylistically. Frazier breaks every rib in his body. The only man who ever blew out Frazier was Foreman --- a two-handed puncher (even heavier-handed than Tua), with significant height & reach advantages, a preter-natural killer instinct Tua could only dream of, & a level of early-round activity required to put Frazier away when he hurt him. Tua was too fat & too cheap on the work-rate to follow up for the kill.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Fucken idiot

[Brutu]

What about some interesting fights that would be more relistic for David Tua?(if only they would fight him)
vrs James Toney
vrs Mike Tyson
vrs Oliver McCall

Years from now people going to be wondering these as what if fights?