Classic American West Coast Boxing

[kikibalt]

Expug, I think there was a little bit too much Billy Conn in Sandoval. In the 7th round of that fight, when he was concentrating on boxing Zamora instead of slugging it out with him, he was doing quite well, in fact, rocking Zamora badly in the 7th with that jackhammer jab of his. Perhaps the smell of blood was too much for him and he went at Zamora in the 8th instead of cooling his jets a little. Kiki, regarding Gutierrez, he was done after '72 and I hated seeing his fight with Sandoval cuz he was just a shell by then. Hate seeing great fighters hanging on way past their sell-by date.

Scartissue

Thanks Scar,
Very interesting.
Was Superfly a little bit more of a Boxer /mover type than banger most of the time in his fights?
Was he ahead at the time of the Zamora stoppage?

Superfly was a boxer-mover-flashy kind of fighter, no, he was not ahead at the time fight was stopped.

[Rick Farris]

Barry . . .

I agree that between 1955-75, the lower weight classes, particularly at bantamweight, were as tough as any other twenty year span in history.

I worked in the gym with Olivares, Castillo, Pimentel, Anaya, Martinez, Herrera and Rogelio Lara, between '69-72.

Funny thing about Olivares, in the gym, he often didn't look good. I was waiting to feel that awesome power of Ruben's, but he basically just boxed & moved. He was a very gifted boxer, able to make his opponents miss, and then pay. It all depended upon his conditioning, as to whether or not he won. When it came to these great Mexican bantam's, there was a very fine line seperating the very good from the great. However, when in top shape and ready, Olivares was in a league of his own.

I used to consider him the greatest ever, and maybe he was at 118lb., however, my early opinion was made before I was fully aware of the greatness of Manuel Ortiz and Eder Jofre. On any given night, who knows?

Manuel Ortiz liked to drink, and would blow up to lightweight and take on guys like Lauro Salas, then swet back down to 118lbs. He could compete with world ranked lightweights carrying a soft belly. Of course, Olivares also drank himself outta the bantam division.

This makes a good case for those who choose Jofre as best, since he was ALWAYS in top shape. If it wasn't for drastic weight loss, I believe Jofre would have taken Harada. I have both fights and they are both great. Harada was relentless, but despite the great pressure, weakened legs, and the other guys hometown, Jofre had Harada out on his feet more than once. Harada also rocked Jofre, big time. Two GREAT title fights! Jofre's only Two defeats.

Jofre left the game after a long career, came back a few years later, this time a full division heavier, and defeated some great featherweights easily. He put an end to the great Vicente Saldivar, an under-rated champion at 126, for sure.

Frankie Crawford never said much complimentary about any of his opponents, however, I overheard him telling a mutual friend that Jofre was the best he fought.

I'll never forget the funny way Crawford used to express himself. Frankie kinda cocked his head to one-side and talked out of the side of his mouth, he had this really deep voice for such a skinny guy. When somebody asked who he fought that was better than Mando Ramos, Crawford laughed and said, "A guy by the name of EDER JOFRE. He's a fu_king Master!" That was how Frankie talked, and that is word-for-word what he said.

Hap Navarro and Frank Baltazar saw all three more than I did, and they rate Olivares 3rd all-time at 118lbs. That says a lot.

-Rick Farris

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[kikibalt]

Albert "Superfly" Sandoval & Albert Davila

[Rick Farris]

Lausse . . .

Just want to apologize for not getting back with you sooner.

I knew Bobby Chacon in the gym, and would run into him regularly at boxing events, etc. however, Bobby and I never socialized. I did meet Val, on several occasions, and I knew her brother, who stepped in to replace Joe Ponce after Bobby's first loss to Olivares. However, I have NO personal knowledge of Bobby abusing her. Like everyone else, I heard the rumors, read the newspaper accounts, etc. however, I really can't shed much light on Bobby's personal life.

As for the sudden "retirement" announcement after the Sotelo fight, yeah, I remember him making such a statement. Nobody took him serious, he'd lost control of his career, had just been floored a couple times by a VERY TOUGH guy in David Sotelo. I gotta tell you, I sparred a lot with Sotelo at Main St. Gym, and he alwyas was a tough workout. He was one of those guys that had a "hurting" type of power. He was a guy who hurt you with anything he landed, and he threw lots of punches and landed more than his fair share.

OK, here's a stupid little gym fact about Sotelo. He used to workout in cut-off jeans, an old t-shirt, and hi-top tennis shoes. He looked like a babyfaced guy off the street. The first time we worked out, I didn't know who he was. He looked like an amateur in the tennis shoes, I soon found out different.

Bobby, of course, returned to the ring, still tough and competitve, but his life had become confused. Anyway, I loved Chacon, he and Danny Lopez are very special.

-Rick Farris

[Robert in NYC]

THis is a great thrread. Welcome aboard, Rick.
An interview with Burke Emery would be great; maybe someone could arrange one.
Regards,
Robert

[Rick Farris]

Robert . . .

Is that you? How great to hook-up with you again! BTW, I need to talk with you. Have some projects you may find interesting. I will E-mail you.

-Rick Farris

[barry]

Rick and Frank---As far as power punching, who out of all the great bantamweights and featherweights of that era would you guys rate at the very top as being the hardest hitter?

I know it is a difficult task because of the total number of fighters at 118 to 126 who were solid to God, one-punch KO specialists! It's just really difficult to sort out. One day I might have Olivares at number one, the next day it's Ricardo Moreno, or Jesus Pimentel...then Danny Lopez...I guess it is depending on who I most recently have been looking into.

As far as Manuel Ortiz...I've always considered him an all-time great, but I had never really done a lot of research on his career until I saw Frank, Rick, Hap and a few others whose opinion I really respect, really praising Ortiz, so I seriously went through his career and I came to the opinion that on any given night Ortiz could beat any bantamweight in history and he simply has to rate very, very high all-time in that division.

[scartissue]

Expug, I think there was a little bit too much Billy Conn in Sandoval. In the 7th round of that fight, when he was concentrating on boxing Zamora instead of slugging it out with him, he was doing quite well, in fact, rocking Zamora badly in the 7th with that jackhammer jab of his. Perhaps the smell of blood was too much for him and he went at Zamora in the 8th instead of cooling his jets a little. Kiki, regarding Gutierrez, he was done after '72 and I hated seeing his fight with Sandoval cuz he was just a shell by then. Hate seeing great fighters hanging on way past their sell-by date.

Scartissue

Thanks Scar,
Very interesting.
Was Superfly a little bit more of a Boxer /mover type than banger most of the time in his fights?
Was he ahead at the time of the Zamora stoppage?

Superfly was a boxer-mover-flashy kind of fighter, no, he was not ahead at the time fight was stopped.

Expug, I agree completely with Kiki, Sandoval was not ahead in that fight, having been down earlier and absorbing some heavy duty leather from Zamora. However, he was coming on, especially in the 7th and that round especially showed what he could do when he put his mind to it. IMO, Sandoval had exceptional boxing skills, but loved to fight. He could hit, but not in the context of a Zamora, Martinez, Olivares, et al. I remember his first fight with Eliseo Cosme. Man, he wanted to get in there so bad and when he dropped Cosme, I think in the 3rd, he just couldn't quench the fire and nailed Cosme while he was down, catching himself a DQ in the process. He must've given Jackie McCoy some fits.

Scartissue

[Expug]

I gotta say its great how this thread has turned out.
West Coast fight guys on a thread started by a Chicago guy!
The pictures and stories have been great .Please keep em comin.
I knew these California fighters were class when Randy Sheilds was brought in to Chicago to fight prospect Louie Mateo in 1980 I believe it was.
Ive sparred with Louie many times and he was a tough kid.Good left hook to the body.
Anyway, Louies people thought Randy would be a nice win for him, I think.
Didnt turn out that way at all, as it was all one way traffic with Randy beating him easily.
Shields was a nice fighter.
Louie was later stopped by Pipino Cuevas also.

[Rick Farris]

In reference to my stating that Ruben Olivares worked "easy" in sparring sessions, well, that was MY experience with Olivares.

As for my experience sparring with the other top bantams (Castillo, Anaya, Martinez, Herrera, Pimentel, etc.) . . . they pretty much kicked my ass!

-Rick Farris

[BoxBuzz]

This thread contains such a great dialouge and photo log of history. Just a treasure! Just know that many are reading, viewing, and appreciating!

[Expug]

Thanks Scar,
Very interesting.
Was Superfly a little bit more of a Boxer /mover type than banger most of the time in his fights?
Was he ahead at the time of the Zamora stoppage?

Superfly was a boxer-mover-flashy kind of fighter, no, he was not ahead at the time fight was stopped.

Expug, I agree completely with Kiki, Sandoval was not ahead in that fight, having been down earlier and absorbing some heavy duty leather from Zamora. However, he was coming on, especially in the 7th and that round especially showed what he could do when he put his mind to it. IMO, Sandoval had exceptional boxing skills, but loved to fight. He could hit, but not in the context of a Zamora, Martinez, Olivares, et al. I remember his first fight with Eliseo Cosme. Man, he wanted to get in there so bad and when he dropped Cosme, I think in the 3rd, he just couldn't quench the fire and nailed Cosme while he was down, catching himself a DQ in the process. He must've given Jackie McCoy some fits.

Scartissue

Thanks Scar.
Speaking again of Zamora, the build up to the Zarate - Zamora fight is still very fresh in my mind.
I felt back then that it was a REAL superfight.
Still do.

[scartissue]

Still grinds my gears to this day that the Zamora-Zarate fight could not get the blessing of those two impotent organizations as for the unified world title and had to go down as a non-title 10 rounder.

Scartissue

[Expug]

Still grinds my gears to this day that the Zamora-Zarate fight could not get the blessing of those two impotent organizations as for the unified world title and had to go down as a non-title 10 rounder.

Scartissue

Aye,
I forgot about that.
Ridiculous for sure.

[scartissue]

Frank, I believe since Halimi was a nickname they have it under his real name Lorenzo Gutierrez. However, in my 1974 edition of the Ring record book, they also post his record prior to 1966, although without details. According to this he had a phenominal record going into his bout with Julio Guerrero in '66. I'll look it up tonight.

Scartissue

Kiki, looked up Gutierrez in my old Ring record book and again, without details they give his record prior to '66's Julio Guerrero fight as 37-5-1 with 23 KO's. I think his style begged of a fast burn time. Man, he was lightning fast. I was surprised when he got beat by Fernando Cabanela, although Cabanela had alot of range on him. But he would nail Cabanela with jarring shots, but the Filipino kept his head and kept the fight at long range.

Scartissue

[dagosd2000]

Rick or Kiki,any stories on Mickey Davies?Put together some great matches. Put together fights in San Diego too. Told me in all the years of matchmaking,never had a card where he didn't have a fighter fail an exam,not show up,wanted more money,etc. Must have been nerve racking.
Also Kiki,you were going to get back with me about Howie Steindler's incident when he got mugged.

[yancey]

Dagosd2000-

I haven't seen Joey Orbillo since the 70's. Last time I saw Joey he was refereeing a kick boxing match at the L.A. Sports Arena. I know Joey had been with the L.A.P.D. Harbor division for awhile, but then left the police force.

I remember Joey from his first days as a pro, but I'm sure Frank can tell you more about his younger days. I recall seeing him train at Jake Shagrue's Hoover St. Gym in the mid-60's, when he was still a young, unbeaten heavyweight.

Joey was only about 5'10", or so, and weighed less than 190 lbs. A bit small for a heavyweight. Too bad there wasn't a cruiserweight class in those days. I remember he was vey fast, had good boxing skills and power.

As the older L.A. guys here remember, In the mid-60's, when Cal & Aileen Eaton brought big-time boxing back to the Olympic on thursday nights, there were a group of local heavyweights that were making quite an impression. There was Quarry, Orbillo, Jimmy Harryman, Manuel Ramos, Amos "Big Train" Lincoln, "Srap Iron" Johnson, etc.

Alenn used to tout the Olympic as "Home of the Heavyweights".

As Quarry & Orbillo racked up wins and unbeaten records, the talk of the town was a Quarry-Orbillo showdown. However, something kinda got in the way of this dream match; Orbillo received his draft notice, and in a matter of weeks he was in the Army.

About this time, Eddie Machen was attempting a comback in the twilight years of his career, and came to L.A. Machen lost a decision to Manuel Ramos at the Sports Arena on the undercard of the Raul Rojas-Pajarito Moreno rematch. It would seem as if Mahen were thru, however, part of the loss might be blamed on the fact that at 3am on the morning of the fight, Aileen Eaton was having him bailed out of jail after being arrested on a drunk driving charge.

Orbillo, in the meantime, had finished up Basic Training and was sent home on a short leave. He received permission from the Army to box during his leave and he took on Eddie Machen, after minimal training for the match. Eddie Machen was to be an "opponent" only. WRONG! Machen gave Orbillo a boxing lesson and sent him back to Fort Ord with a loss on his record.

This set up a another big L.A. heavyweight showdown, between Quarry & Mahen. Johnnie Flores wasn't happy that Quarry was very arrogant when it came to preparing himself for "old Eddie", and like Orbillo, found himself with a loss on his record, after being schooled by Machen over ten rounds.

Eventually, this led to the long awaited Quarry-Orbillo match, which would be held on one of Joey's Army leaves. Jery had his way with Orbillo, knocking him down en route to a unanimous decision win.

After that, Joey Orbillo's career kinda washed away. The time spent in the Army broke his momentum and he never came back with any success.

You knw Dagosd, I'm gunna call Mando Ramos today and see if he can update us on Orbillo. Mando still lives in the Harbor area, and I know he occasionaly runs into Joey. Ramos also sees Scrap Iron Johnson, now and then.

By the way, regarding Machen, after schooling the two L.A. boys, Aileen Eaton matched him with an unbeaten Philly heavyweight named Frazier. That was a helluva fight! MAchen huing in until the very last round before Smokin' Joe could take him out.

A couple years later, four top heavy's of Machen's era, including Eddie, were dead. All died within a year of each other under very starnge circumstances. These are the guys I'm referring to: Sonny Liston (no heroin overdose, as reported), Eddie MAchen (Eddie was a sleepwalker, and one night just walked out of his second story window, falling to his death?), Zora Folley, found dead in his family swimming pool (listed as an accident, nobody seems to explain what caused that bullet-sized hole in his head?), and Roger Rischer, I think he was found dead behind the wheel of his car, or something like that. All fought one another, all dead, all msteriosly. In boxing, dead men tell no tales.

-Rick Farris

Fantastic thread.

I thought I read somewhere that Scrap Iron Johnson had passed away years ago, but hopefully I'm wrong.

Is the Olympic Auditorium still standing?

[elmersalsa]

Irish Bob Murphy

One of my favorites. A tough guy in and outside the ring. Still haven't answered my question. A book from you two. I don't want to read Sugar and Hauser. They're more on the outside looking in. You two have personal experiences that the other two can only get through second hand sources. Besides everthing on ESPN is either Ali or stuff on the east coast or Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis. No knocking those guys,but come on there was more fighting going on elsewhere. Especially on the West Coast. In the 50's,60's,and70's I thought boxing was deeper and much more interesting out here. Well,maybe the last hurrah for boxing at MSG was the 50's and early 60's then theater TV took over. Think about it. We're hungry for other stuff.

That is what I am talking about....The sport of boxing has produced too many legendary champions and fighters for ESPN to concentrate in one man like if he invented boxing. C'mon now, I am an Ali fan, but seeing his fights over and over on tv, especially on ESPNCLASSIC makes me sick.

I want to see fights that happened in the LA Forum or Arena Coliseo in Mexico City.

[Expug]

I believe Scrapiron Johnson received an award from the boxing Hall of Fame a few years ago.
Ive heard fight guys talk about how teak TOUGH he was.
Man what a crew he fought
Foreman
Liston
Smokin Joe
Ron Lyle
Jerry Quarry , a couple times.Ive heard one was REAL close.
Eddie Machen
My thoughts are that Scrapiron was probably a monster in the gym too.

[Rick Farris]

I'll never forget "Scrap Iron" Johnson.

Let's start with the name, "George Raft 'Scarp Iron' Johnson".

Scrap grew up in Oklahoma, the son of a scrap metal yard owner, in Tulsa, I believe? Maybe it was Laughton? Regardless, this is where George Johnson found his ring name. His middle name "Raft", was the product of his father's favorite actor, George Raft.

Yeah, "Scrap Iron"made a big impression in the mid-to-late 60's L.A. Boxing scene.

Guys, for fun, checkout the Boxrec record of Scrap Iron Johnson. There are a few more losses than wins, however, the record tells only part of the story. To those who truly believe that that the final stats of a fighter's careers define the "quality of the fighter", well, to that I must say, you never saw George "Scrap Iron" Johnson.

Any memories of this guy?

-Rick Farris

-Rick Farris

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George "Scarp Iron" Johnson & Joe Bugner

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L.C. Morgan

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Chucho Castillo

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Lupe Pintor

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Rafael Herrera