Terrible Tim Witherspoon V The Irish Bellflower

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Who do you have?

[Collins2000]

The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.

I read that Ali was a sparring partner for Witherspoon for the Holmes fight...King did it to help the gate...Witherspoon feels bad about it now because of the head shots he gave Ali because as we all now Ali was a sick man by then... I hate Don King...

[Collins2000]

The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.

I read that Ali was a sparring partner for Witherspoon for the Holmes fight...King did it to help the gate...Witherspoon feels bad about it now because of the head shots he gave Ali because as we all now Ali was a sick man by then... I hate Don King...

[cybox]

Ali even sparred with Tubbs and Witherspoon for their title fight in Jan of 1986

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Ali even sparred with Tubbs and Witherspoon for their title fight in Jan of 1986

Crazy....That's the fight I meant...

Oh, I was mixed up...Witherspoon was Ali's sparring partner for the Holmes fight in 80...

[dempseyfire]

Ali even sparred with Tubbs and Witherspoon for their title fight in Jan of 1986

Really? May I ask the source of this info? If this is true it's plain scary, as Ali was clearly already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons by this stage.

[TigerMoth]

[quote="Collins2000"]The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.[/quote]



I thought Terrible was an appropriate name for Tim. Seemed like he closed his eyes, ducked his head and through a looping, hope it lands, overhand right and that was his biggest asset. If it landed, it did damage as it did with Holmes. I thought Terrible was terrible but if he got lucky and his go for broke overhand right landed...

I also thought that in the fight with Holmes, Larry being the warrior he was, reacted to being severly hurt by throwing punches and I felt he just got lucky in catching Terrible.

All in all, I felt the Larry Holmes:Tim Witherspoon fight was dramatic, exciting and terrible.

As for Terrible Tim against Quarry, if Terrible landed his "unconventional" overhand right, the fight was his. Otherwise, if Terrible didn't get lucky, it was the Irish Bellflower (I am Irish and my family at one time lived in Bellflower - so, I may not be totally objective).

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Ali even sparred with Tubbs and Witherspoon for their title fight in Jan of 1986

Really? May I ask the source of this info? If this is true it's plain scary, as Ali was clearly already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons by this stage.

"One thing bothers me about me and Ali. In 1986 I was getting ready to fight Tony Tubbs in Atlanta . And to sell tickets for the fight, Don King brought in Ali to spar with me. That's when people were starting to talk about how Ali took too many punches and he's not coordinated, and not talking right. Ali wanted to slow the talk down , so he sparred with me for a week. Every day he had on a sweatsuit, headgear, mouthpiece. And in the ring he's yelling at me to hit him in the head. "You can punch me, hit me in the head. Come on sucker, give me your best shot. Go to the head." I didn't want to do it . But I was training for a world championship fight, so I went to the body pretty hard. I only went to his head a little bit. But I went to his body hard."

-Tim Witherspoon

The Lost Legacy Of Muhammad Ali, Thomas Hauser, pg .181

[Rick Farris]

The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.

I'm only going to say one thing about a fantasy Quarry-Witherspoon match. I was Jerry's stablemate & friend, I knew him pretty damn well. Having seen many of Witherspoon's fights here is my take. It would be pretty much up to Jerry Quarry as to whether he won or lost a match to Tim W. If Jerry wanted to win, he'd do so easily. Witherspoon had no tools to beat a ready Quarry. However, Jerry Quarry was different from fight to fight. If his mind was on the match, he could have beaten everybody he ever fought with the exception of Ali and Frazier. However, Jerry would get "distracted" for lack of a better word, and that is when he'd give performances like he did against Jimmy Ellis or George Chuvalo.

Witherspoon? Well Tim would be at the mercy of Jerry's mind set. Plain & simple. Now I'll head on back to the Classic West Coast Boxing thread, where I belong.

-Rick Farris

[Collins2000]

The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.

I'm only going to say one thing about a fantasy Quarry-Witherspoon match. I was Jerry's stablemate & friend, I knew him pretty damn well. Having seen many of Witherspoon's fights here is my take. It would be pretty much up to Jerry Quarry as to whether he won or lost a match to Tim W. If Jerry wanted to win, he'd do so easily. Witherspoon had no tools to beat a ready Quarry. However, Jerry Quarry was different from fight to fight. If his mind was on the match, he could have beaten everybody he ever fought with the exception of Ali and Frazier. However, Jerry would get "distracted" for lack of a better word, and that is when he'd give performances like he did against Jimmy Ellis or George Chuvalo.

Witherspoon? Well Tim would be at the mercy of Jerry's mind set. Plain & simple. Now I'll head on back to the Classic West Coast Boxing thread, where I belong.

-Rick Farris

Thanks, I always enjoy your comments, Rick.

Did you know the Quarrys' father? I read somewhere that he was a bit like Brian, Carl and Dennis Wilsons father Murry who wanted to live vicariously through his sons and pushed them into doing certain things they might not have wished to do. The Wilson boys finally had to give Murry his marching orders.

It's good to be able to discuss the 60's and 70's without You Know Who perverting everything.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.

I'm only going to say one thing about a fantasy Quarry-Witherspoon match. I was Jerry's stablemate & friend, I knew him pretty damn well. Having seen many of Witherspoon's fights here is my take. It would be pretty much up to Jerry Quarry as to whether he won or lost a match to Tim W. If Jerry wanted to win, he'd do so easily. Witherspoon had no tools to beat a ready Quarry. However, Jerry Quarry was different from fight to fight. If his mind was on the match, he could have beaten everybody he ever fought with the exception of Ali and Frazier. However, Jerry would get "distracted" for lack of a better word, and that is when he'd give performances like he did against Jimmy Ellis or George Chuvalo.

Witherspoon? Well Tim would be at the mercy of Jerry's mind set. Plain & simple. Now I'll head on back to the Classic West Coast Boxing thread, where I belong.

-Rick Farris

Thanks, I always enjoy your comments, Rick.

Did you know the Quarrys' father? I read somewhere that he was a bit like Brian, Carl and Dennis Wilsons father Murry who wanted to live vicariously through his sons and pushed them into doing certain things they might not have wished to do. The Wilson boys finally had to give Murry his marching orders.

It's good to be able to discuss the 60's and 70's without You Know Who perverting everything.

Except Murry Wilson didn't make Dennis fight with a broken back, a broken ankle, or hepatitis...

[Rick Farris]

The Tim that fought Holmes would be a handful for Quarry. A pity he was never able to sustain that form again for a full 12 rounds.

The half-asleep Tim who showed up for the rematch with Bonecrusher would be done in a round by The Bellflower Belter.

I'm only going to say one thing about a fantasy Quarry-Witherspoon match. I was Jerry's stablemate & friend, I knew him pretty damn well. Having seen many of Witherspoon's fights here is my take. It would be pretty much up to Jerry Quarry as to whether he won or lost a match to Tim W. If Jerry wanted to win, he'd do so easily. Witherspoon had no tools to beat a ready Quarry. However, Jerry Quarry was different from fight to fight. If his mind was on the match, he could have beaten everybody he ever fought with the exception of Ali and Frazier. However, Jerry would get "distracted" for lack of a better word, and that is when he'd give performances like he did against Jimmy Ellis or George Chuvalo.

Witherspoon? Well Tim would be at the mercy of Jerry's mind set. Plain & simple. Now I'll head on back to the Classic West Coast Boxing thread, where I belong.

-Rick Farris

Thanks, I always enjoy your comments, Rick.

Did you know the Quarrys' father? I read somewhere that he was a bit like Brian, Carl and Dennis Wilsons father Murry who wanted to live vicariously through his sons and pushed them into doing certain things they might not have wished to do. The Wilson boys finally had to give Murry his marching orders.

It's good to be able to discuss the 60's and 70's without You Know Who perverting everything.

Collins . . . I knew all the Quarry's including Jerry's parents Jack and Arawanda. I was actually closer to Mike than I was Jerry, although Mike was not my stablemate like his older brother. Mike and I were the same age and fought on several L.A. teams togerther, such as the '69 Nat'l Golden Gloves team that went to Kansas City. The best way to tell you about what Jack Quarry was to his sons is to refer you to a story I wrote about Jerry in 1999, shortly after Jerry's death. It was one of my first stories and one that was easy to write because I saw things in Jerry that only those close to the former heavyweight contende were aware of. Jerry was special, but not perfect. When he was "on", he spelled trouble for any heavyweight, including Joe Frazier. I don't feel Jerry could beat Ali, and he didn't, however how many did? Jerry's best moments with Frazier took place in the opening rounds of their first fight in 1969. If you would like to read a story I wrote on Jerry, just click on the link below. It might let you in on a little inside info that went on involving Jerry's father. Papa Jack was a problem. Here is the link:

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/b ... htm#quarry

(BTW Collins, the moron has been banned from this forum for a month)

-Rick

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Rick, that's a great article...Thank you...All three Quarry boys had pugilist dementia I believe and the fourth died of brain cancer...Boxing is a tough sport...Any boxer who had had a lot of fights will show abnormal results on a brain scan; the more these results deviate from normal the greater impairment...

[Collins2000]

Fantastic article, Rick.

I really enjoyed it.

Thanks.

[Robinson]

[/quote]

"One thing bothers me about me and Ali. In 1986 I was getting ready to fight Tony Tubbs in Atlanta . And to sell tickets for the fight, Don King brought in Ali to spar with me. That's when people were starting to talk about how Ali took too many punches and he's not coordinated, and not talking right. Ali wanted to slow the talk down , so he sparred with me for a week. Every day he had on a sweatsuit, headgear, mouthpiece. And in the ring he's yelling at me to hit him in the head. "You can punch me, hit me in the head. Come on sucker, give me your best shot. Go to the head." I didn't want to do it . But I was training for a world championship fight, so I went to the body pretty hard. I only went to his head a little bit. But I went to his body hard."

-Tim Witherspoon

The Lost Legacy Of Muhammad Ali, Thomas Hauser, pg .181[/quote]


That is pretty sad, but can I just say one thing....

Muhammad Ali is a grown man. He knew from the get go that boxing is bad
for ones health. He made the decision, even that late in the game to get inside
the ring with a top fighter for some sparring.

Sure its bad that some one would pay him to do this, but so what...Ali is a
grown up. He made the decision. Any money he needed then he squandered
away. He is a grown man.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Ali sparred with Witherspoon because boxing made him feel alive...That being said, he already had Parkinson's Syndrome or Parkinsonism...Letting a man with Parkinsonism fight is not morally or legally different than giving a drunk another drink and letting him drive home...At least, here in the States, the man or woman who served him is legally liable for the damage he causes to himself and others...

Don King is a loathsome man...He's f--ked over every boxer whoever worked for him from the time he asked Larry Holmes to carry his luggage in Zaire...To Ali's credit, he told the cretinous Don King Larry wasn't a porter...

[Robinson]

I am not praising King...

What I am saying is that King should not be blamed for ALi
hoping in the ring and sparring.....Ali from all accounts at that
time and even today is of sound judgement...so are the people
around him who care about him.

I do not think it was wise for him to do that with his condition..
but he did it and I doubt he regrets doing it.

He was and still is the name in boxing and he was defined by
it and helped define it in the modern era.

[witherspoon]

I am duty bound here to try to make a case for Tim. I would rate him lower than Quarry on an all time list, because Quarry fought in a much tougher era against much better opposition.
I personally believe that Tim would have fared just as well as Quarry in the 70's, IF he were properly dedicated - too big an IF though, for non Tim fans (sometimes even for me).

Head to head also i give Quarry the advantage - I think the argument that you never knew which Quarry would turn up goes just as much for my guy, difference is Quarry is always going to be better prepared physically, so a mentally unfocused Quarry wins out against a fat, untrained Witherspoon.