The growing dichotomy between amateur and pro boxing

[Dennis]

I think the attitude of some in amatuer boxing of trying to distance or completely remove amateur boxing from pro boxing is not necessarily a good thing for our sport. Many boxers get started in the sport because they saw boxing on TV. Now we all know that it is unlikely that what they saw was amateur boxing since there is so little of that on TV. They most likely saw pro boxing even though that isn't on TV as much as it used to. At least not on FREE TV.

I support both pro and amateur boxing. I realize it is necessary for there to be differences in the two. The same thing happens with football and hockey. Little league versions of those sports tone down the risks to get more kids involved, but they don't try to act like the kids shouldn't want to emulate their idols who they watch on TV.

Rather than putting more space between the two, we need to be working together more. Maybe AIBA's idea of a pro league will be good for the sport.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

I think the attitude of some in amatuer boxing of trying to distance or completely remove amateur boxing from pro boxing is not necessarily a good thing for our sport. Many boxers get started in the sport because they saw boxing on TV. Now we all know that it is unlikely that what they saw was amateur boxing since there is so little of that on TV. They most likely saw pro boxing even though that isn't on TV as much as it used to. At least not on FREE TV.

I support both pro and amateur boxing. I realize it is necessary for there to be differences in the two. The same thing happens with football and hockey. Little league versions of those sports tone down the risks to get more kids involved, but they don't try to act like the kids shouldn't want to emulate their idols who they watch on TV.

Rather than putting more space between the two, we need to be working together more. Maybe AIBA's idea of a pro league will be good for the sport.

Good point, Dennis, but I do disagree on one point. As a former youth basketball coach and parent of a youth football player, I think both of those sports involved trying to get kids out of the habits they picked up from 1) watching TV and believe it or not 2) playing video games . Both sports should have the goal of developing the fundamentals of the sports in each athlete to prepare them for the next level (AAU, JV, etc). I used to always have to fight to get basketball players out of the habit of carrying the ball as they try to emulate the Allen Iverson crossover AND I've watched football coaches try to get players to stop holding the football like a loaf of bread i.e. Vince Young

The difference with boxing IMO, is that a kid won't necessarily get seriously injured by trying to be like Vince Young on the football field, but in the ring, an Emmanuel-Augustus-wannabe boxer is an injury waiting to happen.

I do agree that to ignore the link between amateur and pro boxing is not going to help either sport in the longrun.

[squarering]

Dennis, I also agree with you and have seen it first hand that when boxers move on their trainers or management have little interest in keeping a link back to the amateurs, other than going to the gym and staying connected with the amateur from their own program. A tie to USAB seems to get severed and there are legitimate reasons. They can range from frustration of amateur judging to politics within an LBC or region to things on a national or international level. Once again it goes back to the grass roots of a coach turned trainer to try to make or keep the connection. Not unlike raising a child, it has to be fostered in the juniors and deepened in the open class not only by the LBC but on the National level. Only a few boxers make it to the Olympics but many others go on to the pros and achieve great success. That boxers experience in the amateurs will have a direct impact on weather they feel a close connection to the system they came through. As a rule only the very top boxers are treated in a way that would make them feel like giving back and in many cases not even then. This year I am sure that some bonds were broken with a few Olympians. It is definitely an area that needs addressing. You'd be surprised what a few custom made mouthpieces or or even being treated with dignity and respect will do for a young boxer. I have seen these kids treated like idiots by some people that were in positions of power but did not understand or deserve to be in that position.

[Dennis]

I agree that kids should be taught the fundamentals and should be taught how to succeed as amateur boxers. However, too many amateur boxing officials want to ostracize anyone who becomes affiliated with pro boxing. I think that is a BIG MISTAKE.

[delisa]

The biggest problem I see is that boxing is no longer a poor kid's sport.

It costs WAY too much money for poor kids to join a gym. So many kids are trained by their fathers in basement gyms etc.

Also, the philosophy behind amateur scoring doesn't make sense to me at all. I also see the clinch as part of the game, not something to be constantly warned against.

etc
etc

[boxmel]

However, too many amateur boxing officials want to ostracize anyone who becomes affiliated with pro boxing. I think that is a BIG MISTAKE.

Boy - you must have some really narrow-minded people in your area! 8) I don't like pro boxing and I have no interest in ever becoming involved but I don't dislike or ostracize any who do.

It costs WAY too much money for poor kids to join a gym. So many kids are trained by their fathers in basement gyms etc.

I have to disagree with you on this statement, Mike. Many of our coaches, and those organizations who sponsor gyms, pay for lots of kids. There will always be a certain amount of boxers who are trained in their father's garage, mainly because he doesn't want anyone else training his kid. Boxing is probably the cheapest sport to participate in and for those who really want to, a way is always found.

Also, the philosophy behind amateur scoring doesn't make sense to me at all. I also see the clinch as part of the game, not something to be constantly warned against.

Latest philosophy is (and obviously not a standard one) is to let the boxers clinch unless it is flagrant. As long as they clinch and get out, the referees are not supposed to call "holding." However, if you decide to glue yourself to your opponent, or dance, it's definitely a foul.

Nice to see you posting here. 8)

[Dennis]

There is no consistency on how clinching is treated in both the amateurs and pros. Some refs allow it and others do not. I get annoyed by pro refs who over officiate. They yell break and move into separate when the two boxers get near each other. What, we can't have in-fighting anymore? Is everyone supposed to box from the outside?

[Dennis]

If the boxers are in close and one or both are punching, don't stop the action. Also give the boxers a second or two to work their way out. Some boxers actually do very well when the other boxer is trying to hold. I have witnessed KO's that way. A boxer reaches to hold and gets KO'd. The refs need to give them an opportunity.

[Dennis]

It goes the other way too. I can't stand it when a ref allows constant holding. That can make a bout very boring.

[Puncher7]

since turning pro I've admittedly been less interested in amateur boxing
One thing I do get frustrated about in the pro's when watching though is when some guys do glue themselves to their opponent and flagrantly hold most referees offer no consequenses.. they just say break and let them keep holding and holding over and over again and this can make a difference in the fight..
flagrant holding is not supposed to be part of boxing

[Dennis]

It goes both ways. Flagrant holding with no consequences is very annoying, but so is the situation in which the ref constantly breaks the boxers before they are given any chance to do any inside work.

[Jamel]

Everyone here made a good point on boxing as a whole but I just believe they need to host more amateur boxing on TV. Its sad how you might only see amateur boxing on the olympics and even during the olympics they only show a few matches here and there. I remember when I was younger they would host national tournaments on TV like espn but lately I haven't seen any of that, I just left from the national PAL and I doubt if I seen any type of media covering that tournament. Some people may say its because of MMA these days but to be honest theres still a lot of die hard boxing fans and theres people out there who think MMA is boring and mostly deal with two men grappling on the ground so we cant blame it on MMA we just need to get boxing out to the public more.

[boxmel]

The local Oxnard paper might have carried results - I didn't check - but there wasn't any overt media coverage. Double-bind of National PAL not having a media contract probably because there isn't any interest.

[squarering]

Geting the media to cover events is not as simple as calling a paper or tv station. It takes years of building relationships to connect the media to the sport and people in the sport. By keeping them involved through the years, not just when a big event comes to town. there is a continuity of news that can cover how a program helps kids, how a local boxer has started to stand out with either his record or tournamnets, and how a standout boxer can give back into the community as a role model for other youths that may want to try to change thier lives. All this comes together and creates good media for bigger events.
As far as the holding in boxing, It can be a thing of brilliance if done at the right time in the right way or it can be a discusting act of laziness, lack of training, or giving up. In the pros they do tend to distingish between the two more. In the amateures it considered just plain wrong. Watch Amir Kahn. He was so talented as an amateure but when he need other skills to help get him through, he had nothing to fall back on, so fell back on his back.

[Dennis]

Hal (SquarePeg or whatever he calls himself - ) knows a thing or two about media. He was instrumental in Fernando Guerrero having 6,700 fans in attendance for his 10th bout last week which was held in Salisbury, MD and shown on Showtime's ShoBox series.

Just kidding about the squarePeg thing Hal. We all like your squarering screen name.

[Dennis]

As far as TV goes, it is hard to build up interest when pro boxing doesn't get that much coverage and amateur boxing tries everything to distance itself from the pros. It can be done, but we have to make people want to watch amateur boxing. This years Olympic boxing did not help that cause. Now, the local Golden Gloves tournaments have done well in most areas and the 2008 National Golden Gloves held here in Grand Rapids, MI had great media coverage. It didn't come easy and a lot of us worked long hours to achieve that goal. Not having a media contract can be a problem, but so too can having one. The NGG has one, but has had legal issues with its TV vendor. If that wasn't the case, everyone would have seen the 2008 NGG on TV. Hopefully, it will be back on TV in 2009.

[squarering]

oh that little thing,,,,,,,,,,,,, it was 6,703 LOL And I take great pride in being a square peg in a world full of some real round holes. and who is out of the out of box thinker that must have taken weeks to come up with........Dennis. Who in their right mind would ever call them self Dennis when you could have called yourself "stinky legal briefs" or "Never crossing Jordan"

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Geting the media to cover events is not as simple as calling a paper or tv station. It takes years of building relationships to connect the media to the sport and people in the sport. By keeping them involved through the years, not just when a big event comes to town. there is a continuity of news that can cover how a program helps kids, how a local boxer has started to stand out with either his record or tournamnets, and how a standout boxer can give back into the community as a role model for other youths that may want to try to change thier lives. All this comes together and creates good media for bigger events.
As far as the holding in boxing, It can be a thing of brilliance if done at the right time in the right way or it can be a discusting act of laziness, lack of training, or giving up. In the pros they do tend to distingish between the two more. In the amateures it considered just plain wrong. Watch Amir Kahn. He was so talented as an amateure but when he need other skills to help get him through, he had nothing to fall back on, so fell back on his back.

The great thing about the technology today is that you don't have to use traditional media anymore. In 2008, anything in print by definition is "old". Viral marketing and social networking have taken over and it doesn't take a million dollar budget to spread any message or sell anything these days. As long as USAB is willing to accept those facts, they can definitely improve and increase visibility of amateur boxing in the general public. I think that in a digital age, USAB should be using the internet (I use the term generally) as not only the prime means to attract new boxers to the sport, but also to educate and change the perception of the general public towards the sport. MMA continues to pull away in this regard. Even after breaking records in PPV buys, Dana White is now combatting Pride and Afflictions attempt to gain market share by doing what you ask? Having his championship cards that are normally upwards of $50 on SpikeTV. . . .brilliant. Two or three more and Affliction will disappear. You can catch almost any UFC fight on youtube also. UFC could easily remove the videos because of copyright, but they don't. You know why, because it's the cheapest publicity they get and may be the most effective. Kimbo Slice, even though took a KO loss this weekend, has made himself a millionaire 100% directly from youtube!! It works, really, it does :)

Will someone please, please, please get amateur boxing on network TV? The NGG was on TBS a few years back, but there are many other tournaments that have great cards. Now, I do believe that in order to promote the sport, we can't just show a tournament, but maybe we can start building interest in some of the nationally ranked elite boxers by showcasing them at certain tournaments (sponsorship) to make sure that there are some really great bouts. I really enjoyed the Under-19 this year and I would have watched many of those bouts on TV. But what do I know. . . I'm just throwing it against the wall to see what sticks.

[Dennis]

oh that little thing,,,,,,,,,,,,, it was 6,703 LOL And I take great pride in being a square peg in a world full of some real round holes. and who is out of the out of box thinker that must have taken weeks to come up with........Dennis. Who in their right mind would ever call them self Dennis when you could have called yourself "stinky legal briefs" or "Never crossing Jordan"

You had me laughing once again!

[Jamel]

The only thing that you see on tv thats probably a yearly basis is the New York Golden Gloves

[Dennis]

Amateur boxing needs everyone to work at the publicity. Local shows need people to attend so that the fan base grows. Take videos of the bouts and stick them on YouTube and MySpace and other video hosting sites. Get people to want to come to the shows. Talk to people, put up flyers, etc.

[Jamel]

Amateur boxing needs everyone to work at the publicity. Local shows need people to attend so that the fan base grows. Take videos of the bouts and stick them on YouTube and MySpace and other video hosting sites. Get people to want to come to the shows. Talk to people, put up flyers, etc.

Well I give a lot of credit to DCAmateurBoxing because I always see em post videos up on youtube all the time, so much love to ya DC

[DCAmateurBoxing]

Amateur boxing needs everyone to work at the publicity. Local shows need people to attend so that the fan base grows. Take videos of the bouts and stick them on YouTube and MySpace and other video hosting sites. Get people to want to come to the shows. Talk to people, put up flyers, etc.

Well I give a lot of credit to DCAmateurBoxing because I always see em post videos up on youtube all the time, so much love to ya DC

Thanks. I'm just trying to promote the sport and give family and friends a chance to see boxers they support. I don't know about everywhere else, but in our area - local shows charge anywhere from $10 or $15 to $20 per person for local shows. I'm not complaining because it goes to support local programs, but everyone can't afford that and if they can, they often can't bring the entire family.

[Dennis]

It is so much better LIVE. People need to go support their boxers at the shows. Some of the people who complain about the ticket prices of $10 don't hesitate to go to a movie and spend about the same for a ticket and then even more for popcorn, a drink and some candy.

[Dennis]

The videos are a great way to promote our sport, but we also need to get butts in the seats.