Prime Muhammad Ali vs Prime Mike Tyson

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 18 Feb 2004, 16:24

Tantum wrote:No man. Don't wrongfully give props. :P

That was a pic in my 1000th post tribute.

Err, 999th.

Sorry, Tantum - got my propwires crossed.

Since it was your pic, do you know who the two guys in between Ali and Floyd are? The stifled-laughter look on the one guy's face just cracks me up.

marcelo · Post by **marcelo** » 26 Feb 2004, 01:16

Very difficult to predict....... Ali never fought with someone similar to Tyson and viceversa. Liston could be the nearest approach but Young Tyson was incredible faster and better boxer than Sonny.

I think its impossible to predict....

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 26 Feb 2004, 02:24

Ali beat better fighters than Mike Tyson, and Tyson lost badly to lesser fighters than Ali ....
not too difficult to predict..

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 26 Feb 2004, 06:51

A peak Tyson would have KO'd him. Too strong, too fast, too powerful.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 26 Feb 2004, 11:12

knockout artist wrote:A peak Tyson would have KO'd him. Too strong, too fast, too powerful.

Mike Tyson's fans are the kings of the woulda,shoulda, coulda ....If I had a nicle for every time I heard some overheated Tyson honk predicted that a "prime"Mike would easily knock out such and such fighter ...I'd be able to pay of the national deficit ...

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 29 Feb 2004, 07:43

Tyson in his prime was a great puncher but he was not as good a fighter as Foreman or Frazier so i would pick Ali to win an easy UD.
Anyone that thinks that Tyson was better than Frazier should get hold of some of Smokin Joes video's and watch them.

revporl · Post by **revporl** » 04 Mar 2004, 14:20

Ali would have completely baffled Tyson, I feel, and proably stopped him in the last 3rd of the fight or won an easy decision. Tyson would have the punchers chance though.... but then again, so did Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Shavers....

Iron Mike · Post by **Iron Mike** » 22 May 2004, 16:09

I can see Tyson is severely underrated here. When he was in fighting shape he beat the 2 greatest fighters available with ease, Holmes and Spinks aren't exactly prime greats but only a couple of heavyweights have wins over a prime great so that is useless to say. I don't know why "historians" are so quick to attack Tyson, but other greats seem to be impervious to this. For example, in every thread related to Tyson, there'll be a half a dozen rape jokes, but bring up Joe Frazier and everyone mentions his beautiful hooks in the ring and not the ones he lands on women. It's a dumb double standard, just like that "never beat a prime great" bullshit. As for Mike Tyson's heart, I don't know why this is such a factor in these matchups, I mean has the man ever backed off from his opponent? At times he hasn't been able to do anything when he got their but that's due to conditioning not his heart. Tyson has a giant fighters heart and saying anything else is ignorant bullshit.

Anyways, as for Ali vs Tyson, Douglas and Ali are completely different fighters and Tyson was so pitifully lethargic in the Douglas fight that the comparison is irrelevant. All this shows is that a 6'4 240 pound man can beat the shit out of a 5'10 guy with long jabs and rights if the 5'10 guy isn't offering much back. That said, if poor Ali imitators could put up a showing vs Tyson and stay with him, Ali could do much more. I see Tyson winning the first 3-4 rounds, then as he slows down Ali starts to take over and essentially pitches a shutout until the end. I think Tyson is certainly capable of knocking him down and any man can be stopped, but I'm certain Ali is as close to unstoppable as any fighter ever so I'm sure he'd make it through the occasional rough patches to post a solid UD.

By the way Liston and Foreman are bad, bad men but neither is half the puncher Tyson was, noone has his combination of speed, power, and accuracy, noone.

Iron Mike · Post by **Iron Mike** » 22 May 2004, 16:14

Ben Keilty wrote:Tyson in his prime was a great puncher but he was not as good a fighter as Foreman or Frazier so i would pick Ali to win an easy UD.
Anyone that thinks that Tyson was better than Frazier should get hold of some of Smokin Joes video's and watch them.

We've all seen Joe Fraziers fights, he out lands a past it Ali, fights a few club level fighters for defenses, then gets blown out by Foreman a couple times. Oh wait we can excuse the Foreman fights because of the style disadvantage right. And I'm sure Tyson loses to Jimmy Young. Anyways, why wouldn't Tyson be as good a fighter as either man? He was faster, had a tighter D, a better chin (I think only Ali, Chuvalo, and Oliver McCall have better), and was better at cutting off the ring.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 22 May 2004, 19:33

Iron Mike wrote:
Ben Keilty wrote:Tyson in his prime was a great puncher but he was not as good a fighter as Foreman or Frazier so i would pick Ali to win an easy UD.
Anyone that thinks that Tyson was better than Frazier should get hold of some of Smokin Joes video's and watch them.
We've all seen Joe Fraziers fights, he out lands a past it Ali, fights a few club level fighters for defenses, then gets blown out by Foreman a couple times. Oh wait we can excuse the Foreman fights because of the style disadvantage right. And I'm sure Tyson loses to Jimmy Young. Anyways, why wouldn't Tyson be as good a fighter as either man? He was faster, had a tighter D, a better chin (I think only Ali, Chuvalo, and Oliver McCall have better), and was better at cutting off the ring.

Frazier just outlanded a past-prime Ali, beat a few club-level fighters, then got blasted out by Foreman a couple times? Yes, you obviously have a deep and intricate knowledge of Frazier's career and fighting capabilities.

Frazier beat Jerry Quarry, George Chuvalo, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, etc. He beat just about all of the top fighters of his era, including the only slightly past-it Ali, before losing to Foreman. Admittedly the Foreman losses were bad, but it's ridiculous for some people(like yourself), to try to essentially dismiss his career and himself as a fighter based on that.

HeavyHitter · Post by **HeavyHitter** » 24 May 2004, 23:48

Hmm Tyson-Ali eh? No contest. The battle of wills would have been paiful enough to watch let alone the actual fighting.
Tyson was a great fighter, blessed with speed, ferocity and punching power in both hands, but he is no Ali.
I think that for Tyson to "beat" Ali it would have to be via decision. Ali's chin was pure granite and he had the heart of a lion. You would have had to stab him to keep him down. Now when I think of that I just think that Tyson wouldn't have had the necessary tools to take a decision (over fifteen rounds) over Ali. I just can't see it. Ali went in with some of boxing's biggest hitters and never flinched once, Tyson would have been no different in my opinion.
Anyway it is a great thought. So I guess if we are looking at great heavyweights I wonder who you guys would consider the top, say, three heavyweights of the modren era to be?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 25 May 2004, 02:35

..i hate to dis tyson any more than has been done already....and I think at his peak he was a tough customer...but fellas...come on...on tyson's best night ali could chat on his cell phone between rounds and walk away with this one. no contest.

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 26 May 2004, 02:04

Ali by a fairly lopsided decision down the stretch.
Is it just me, or does anyone else recall Tyson fading down the stretch even back in his prime? I remember the guy being a holy terror in the first 4-6 rounds of a fight, and then settling into a VERY low work-rate for the duration. Against most of the guys he fought back then it ddn't cost him much, but against someone who was still game after the half-way point (not to beleaguer the Douglas analogy) he could have found himself in trouble a whole lot more than he did, if more guys of that era had been of any real quality and resiliency.
Resilienct and endurance pretty much defied Frazier back in the day, and I think would have carried him to victory over Tyson in the late rounds, too. Anyone who thinks Tysons hits (or ever hit) as hard as a prime Foreman is living in a dream world--he just couldn't have blown Frazier out the way George did, and I think he would have faded done the stretch, although I think he may well have dominated the first half.

Iron Mike · Post by **Iron Mike** » 26 May 2004, 19:58

Ya I think Tyson hits harder then Foreman. I'm trying to think of Foreman blowing out a sturdy guy in one punch, Tyson has done that many times. Maybe not against the best fighters but legitimate 1 punch ko's against sturdy chins. Foremans power is overrated and his accuracy and speed is underrated. Tyson had the same weight behind his punches, obviously had more explosive(faster) muscles, and better technique this seems a no brainer to me.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 26 May 2004, 23:30

Iron Mike wrote: I'm trying to think of Foreman blowing out a sturdy guy in one punch, Tyson has done that many times. Maybe not against the best fighters but legitimate 1 punch ko's against sturdy chins. .

Who??? Dave Jaco??? Maybe Cliff Ettiene? Oh wait . . . Frank Bruno

Joe Frazier had a better chin and was more durable than any Tyson KO victim. Sorry Tyson was surely quicker then Foreman but when it comes to raw punching power Foreman had it in bags. Foreman moved guys' whole bodies by hitting their arms. Tyson did not have that kind of power. Ask any of his opponents or sparring partners they'll tell you-he knocks out guys more b/c of speed than power. He def. has a punch, not not the raw power of a Foreman or Liston or Shavers.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 26 May 2004, 23:40

[quote="dan1030"]Ali by a fairly lopsided decision down the stretch.
Is it just me, or does anyone else recall Tyson fading down the stretch even back in his prime? I remember the guy being a holy terror in the first 4-6 rounds of a fight, and then settling into a VERY low work-rate for the duration. Against most of the guys he fought back then it ddn't cost him much, but against someone who was still game after the half-way point (not to beleaguer the Douglas analogy) he could have found himself in trouble a whole lot more than he did, if more guys of that era had been of any real quality and resiliency.
quote]

EXACTLY. People watch the highlight reels (against guys like Marvin Johnson

) and think Tyson was indestructable, whereas in practically every fight after the first 3 rds Tyson became a stalker, with a low work rate, and had a penchant for getting frustrated. Just watch his fights with Tillis, Tucker, Bruno, Smith etc. Joe Frazier had a much higher work-rate, was harder to hit (constantly moving his head and upper body) and actually got STRONGER as the bout went on. When people say Tyson was a much better version of Frazier they are living in the land of Mike Tyson's Punchout where it's almost impossible to beat the guy. If a 34 yr old Holyfield could outfight and outlast Mike Frazier surely could. You needed power to beat Tyson?-two words-Buster Douglas
And who said Tyson was a better boxer than Liston? Shame on you.
I like Mike as much as the next guy (nothing would thrill me more then a great Tyson comeback amidst this dog poo crop of HWs) but many of his fans just go overboard.

Iron Mike · Post by **Iron Mike** » 26 May 2004, 23:58

dempseyfire wrote:
Iron Mike wrote: I'm trying to think of Foreman blowing out a sturdy guy in one punch, Tyson has done that many times. Maybe not against the best fighters but legitimate 1 punch ko's against sturdy chins. .
Who??? Dave Jaco??? Maybe Cliff Ettiene? Oh wait . . . Frank Bruno

Joe Frazier had a better chin and was more durable than any Tyson KO victim. Sorry Tyson was surely quicker then Foreman but when it comes to raw punching power Foreman had it in bags. Foreman moved guys' whole bodies by hitting their arms. Tyson did not have that kind of power. Ask any of his opponents or sparring partners they'll tell you-he knocks out guys more b/c of speed than power. He def. has a punch, not not the raw power of a Foreman or Liston or Shavers.

Df, guys like Botha and Berbick are no fighter of the century candidates but they have solid chins. Foreman landed everything but the kitchen sink on Frazier, this is where Foremans power is most overrated and his speed and accuracy is underrated, he was landing everything he threw on Frazier, not the easiest feat, still took him alot of bombs to finish him though. I think Tyson hti harder, who's more effective or a better puncher, that's opinion I wouldn't delve into. Also as for Tysons tiring, he did slow down but even when he was tiring he was easily winning every round, I think his stamina is fine especially for a guy his size. I THINK TYSONS BIGGEST PROBLEM IN HIS PRIME was how easy he was to tie up, he just didn't care to fight and would accept clinches even from 200 pound men whom he could easily shove aside and batter, I wonder how a massive man like Lewis who uses his girth to his full advantage would tire him out.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 May 2004, 01:27

Iron Mike wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:
Iron Mike wrote: I'm trying to think of Foreman blowing out a sturdy guy in one punch, Tyson has done that many times. Maybe not against the best fighters but legitimate 1 punch ko's against sturdy chins. .
Who??? Dave Jaco??? Maybe Cliff Ettiene? Oh wait . . . Frank Bruno

Joe Frazier had a better chin and was more durable than any Tyson KO victim. Sorry Tyson was surely quicker then Foreman but when it comes to raw punching power Foreman had it in bags. Foreman moved guys' whole bodies by hitting their arms. Tyson did not have that kind of power. Ask any of his opponents or sparring partners they'll tell you-he knocks out guys more b/c of speed than power. He def. has a punch, not not the raw power of a Foreman or Liston or Shavers.
Df, guys like Botha and Berbick are no fighter of the century candidates but they have solid chins. Foreman landed everything but the kitchen sink on Frazier, this is where Foremans power is most overrated and his speed and accuracy is underrated, he was landing everything he threw on Frazier, not the easiest feat, still took him alot of bombs to finish him though. I think Tyson hti harder, who's more effective or a better puncher, that's opinion I wouldn't delve into. Also as for Tysons tiring, he did slow down but even when he was tiring he was easily winning every round, I think his stamina is fine especially for a guy his size. I THINK TYSONS BIGGEST PROBLEM IN HIS PRIME was how easy he was to tie up, he just didn't care to fight and would accept clinches even from 200 pound men whom he could easily shove aside and batter, I wonder how a massive man like Lewis who uses his girth to his full advantage would tire him out.

But to me that proves Frazier's chin. Frazier had already displayed an amazing chin in fights against Bonavena, Quarry, Stander. Mathis etc. It's natural he wouldn't be KO'd by a single punch. And again, look into interviews of guys who sparred and/or fought both Foreman and Tyson. Every single fighter will say Foreman hits harder when asked that question, and that Tyson's KO ability came more from speed than power (although he surely had power). This is kinda of a accepted thing.

On a sidenote, Botha's durability (and overall reputation as a fighter) is extreamly over-rated. His chin is ok but nothing to write home about-the only solid puncher he's gone the distance with was Shannon Briggs (yawn), a fight in which was knocked down. He got Ko'd by Moorer, Tyson, and Klitschko. He was the product of Don King. I don't know how he ever got the tag of a "rugged gatekeeper" as he never displayed such characteristics. Willie Chapman is a better gatekeeper than Francois Botha.

HeavyHitter · Post by **HeavyHitter** » 28 May 2004, 09:57

No way did Tyson hit as hard as Big George. Foreman, alongside Shavers was the hardset single shot puncher I have ever seen. Without doubt.
What do you guys think of a prime Tyson against a prime Larry Holmes?

Iron Mike · Post by **Iron Mike** » 28 May 2004, 23:17

when did Foreman stop a good chinned guy in one punch

Iron Mike · Post by **Iron Mike** » 28 May 2004, 23:20

HeavyHitter wrote:No way did Tyson hit as hard as Big George. Foreman, alongside Shavers was the hardset single shot puncher I have ever seen. Without doubt.
What do you guys think of a prime Tyson against a prime Larry Holmes?

And uhh, poor fighters with crude power and speed got to Larry on several occasions, and Tyson already did it in only 4, don't see it being any different regardless. larry Holmes is the most overrated fighter in history, fights the weakest competition, struggles with them, gets a couple gifts, gets beat by spinks, then tyson plows him, yet somehow he is rated up there with the likes of Ali, Louis, and Marciano

crooked nose · Post by **crooked nose** » 29 May 2004, 01:41

Getting back to the original topic, prime Ali v. prime Tyson, it's Ali in a laugher. If Liston, Frazier and Foreman all fell to Ali, Tyson would surely be no different. Ali was unmatched at getting inside an opponent's head. He made Liston quit. The invincible Foreman was left limp inside half an hour. Tyson, being a major head case, would surely succumb quickly. Ali by KO within five, with a totally frustrated Tyson disgracing himself by fouling, quitting or molesting a round card girl.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 01 Jun 2004, 00:04

Patterson was the Rabbit and Liston the Bear and Foreman the Mummy I wonder what name Tyson would have been dubbed..