Tiger Flowers - Most Underrated Fighter of All Time

[robert.snell1]

Well, as ever when a debate starts regarding Harry Greb we get a whole raft of new information being written up. The relationship between boxers and gangsters was of particular interest and thanks for that.

We also see the long standing issue debated, mostly with reasonable exchanges on both sides, of the news reports of the time and how they can vary in there accounts of the event.

All reporters have a bias, the nature of our fellow man, and its a case of deciding between the various reports where the facts lie. In certain cases it's worth considering the track record of a particular reporter and how he was viewed at, and after, as a source of information.

I think this is to be fair what Klompton is so avid about and I do think he should be given some credit for this stance that he makes on this and other issues. As for being a Greb Zealot I think thats quite true and I am to be quite frank delighted he is as Its been the centre of many a "lively" debate on this forum for some time and hope it continues to be so.

Have a go at Greb and the writer beware....a joke Klompton

mention has been made of the black papers of that era and would welcome some details of others as I, as may others, be interested in checking them out on how they reported a particular fight against the more white press - for want of a better desciption-

[sharkeysboy]

I have to go back to real life (after making 8 billion posts this last weekend) but let me say one thing before I disappear. Klompton has displayed his remarkable knowledge of Greb related facts. But all that is to no avail if everything passes through a "Greb is god" prism. His statements about the African American press' "agenda" and his rejection so summarily of any foul play concerning Tiger's death is, I fear, just the tip of the ice berg of facts and opinions he's going to reject because they don't fit into his Grebian world view. That's a shame since he claims to be writing the definitive book on Greb. According to James Fair, Hemingway once described Greb as a great American. I agree and he deserves an honest telling of his story.

[klompton]

How can you deny that the black press had an agenda when they wrote specifically for single section of public and rejected anything else as if black society existed within a vacuum. The mainstream press wrote about blacks favorably and unfavorably. Most newspapers of the day had a section devoted exclusively to african american news. Did the black press have such a thing for other members of society? No. 99 percent of the time when the black press wrote about whites it was to denegrate them.

This is all beside the point because as Ive already stated even those papers that would have been far more biased toward Flowers than any other support MY contention that the fight was extremely close.

I reject the notion of foul play in Tigers death because there is no evidence whatsoever. Period. Rumor and inuendo written decades after the fact by people who had no connection with Flowers at all is not evidence. The simple fact is that while tragic, his and Greb's death on the operating table were common place given the anasthetics of the day. I know because Ive interviewed doctors about this very subject for the book.

You act as if stating some rosey picture of Greb simply because I adhere to the ACCEPTED notion that he was past his prime when he lost to Flowers. He was. There is plenty in my book thats negative of Greb. Ive said before and Ill say to you, there are a lot of things I find troubling about him, his career, and his personality. This isnt one of them and as such we clash.

Its a shame because every few months some knucklehead comes along. Hes read James Fairs horrendous book (which was so full of lies he was sued and it was forced from the presses) or some article in Ring magazine and he thinks hes suddenly an expert. He starts spouting a bunch of wild garbage such as: "I bet they destroyed Greb's films to preserve his legacy" or "Tiger Flowers beat a prime Greb and as such he was better." Its ridiculous.

If Im a zealot for trying to correct you, which I think I have given the ample quotes and press reports. Then so be it. In order to tackle a subject as volumnous as Greb one must be zealous to a degree. Maybe if you and Kaye were more zealous in your research of Flowers you would have gotten the story right...

Now, Im off to the library, more Greb related microfilm awaits

[slakka]

Portraying Harry Greb in 1926 NOT at a severe disadvantage is one of the more ridicules posts I've ever come across, yet what he was able to do to in his condition by that time to Allentown Joey Gans, a HELL of a fighter who apparently held Jack Delaney to a draw, is one of the countless measures of this amazing fighters greatness.

P.S. The N.Y.C. press despised Harry to be sure.

[dempseyfire]

Sharkeysboy, you are simply wrong here.

It's a FACT Gren was blind in one eye by this point, that he'd been fighting HOF competition since 1915 (3 years before Flowers even turned pro) and had many more fights than Flowers when they fought . . to claim this was not was past his prime Greb is absurd.

All you have to do is look at the rest of their respective resumes and it's clear Greb was the greater fighter, period. To claim it's all a conspirarcy of a racist white media is simply inaccurate and rather warped logic if you throughly study and know the time period.

[My2Sense]

Don't know what it means, but here's the blurbs on Harry Greb's boxrec record:

The first fight w/Flowers:
"Opinions about the winner varied. Newspaper decision from the Elyria Chronicle Telegram went to Greb. Regis Welsh, sports editor of the Pittsburgh Post, was on hand and said that 12,000 persons attended. Welsh scored it as follows: 1st round even; Flowers won the 2nd; Greb won the 3rd, 4th and 5th; Flowers got an edge in the 6th; and Greb won each of the last four rounds. Welsh described Flowers as a southpaw, "awkward, covering up, wild-swinging." For once Greb met someone as unorthodox as himself. Flowers did well for six rounds even though lacking a hard punch. After that he seemed to tire, "grew more timid as the bout wore on, and was at sea against Greb's windmill tactics, speed, and roughhouse." Afterward, Walk Miller (Flowers's manager) claimed victory, and his unrelenting publicity campaign did have the effect of making his fighter much better known."

The 2nd fight:
"Most experts thought that Greb won this fight. Frank Getty of the United Press stated that "many experts figured that the worst the former champion should have had was a draw, for Greb was the stronger puncher and at times had Flowers in real trouble." Hype Igoe stated that "the decision was met with deathly silence by the crowd. To some it was a just verdict. To others it was unfair to Greb..My own tally had Greb out in front by a margin of two rounds- five for Flowers, seven for Greb and the others even." Regis Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post had Greb winning 8-5-2 on rounds. Greb did suffer a cut eyebrow in round 3, his first since he fought Bob Roper in Buffalo. Greb fought flat-footed and was wild, not in his best form."

The 3rd fight:
"Opinions of observers on the outcome of this fight varied. It was evident that many people tended to count Harry's rough style against him. Regis Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post said that Harry "honestly won." Frank Getty of UP said Flowers easily won. Welsh gave Greb rounds 1,2,6,8, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 and Flowers rounds 4, 5, 7, and 10, with rounds 3 and 9 even. Welsh asserted that the judges overreacted to the claim of Walk Miller (Flowers's manager) a few days before the fight that it was "in the bag" for Greb. He also stated that a great many persons who viewed the fight thought that Greb won. Greb, himself, said "Well, that was one fight I won if I ever won any.""

[My2Sense]

BTW, am I the only one who thinks it's a bit harsh to dismiss Flowers as having a "glass chin"? I know he was stopped a bunch of times, but almost all of them came early in his career, when he was being thrown to the wolves and often fighting bigger guys. Also, as I recall, they usually came against the same fighters - ie: Delaney twice, Kid Norfolk twice, Panama Joe twice. Plus he came back and avenged a few of those losses.

[slakka]

No, he did have a glass chin due to Walk Millers mismanagement. Tiger vs Sam Langford?? As Ray Arcel said about Hagler-Hearns
"Once you get hit like that you stay hit"