Lennox Lewis: What glass jaw?

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 17 Jun 2004, 02:55

Lewis's chin usually gets first mention when people speak negatively of him. His two stoppage defeats, against McCall and Rahman, have to count against him because neither are/were particularly special fighters. Each landed a huge punch that connected perfectly - McCall's on the front of the chin and mouth when Lewis's momentum was propelling him forward, and Rahman's the perfect right cross, landing on the side of the jaw. He was up at six against McCall but didn't quite beat the count against Rahman.

Those were the only two counts he took in his 14 year, 44 fight professional career, and on both occassions he wasn't fully fit. He took flush hits from Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield, Tyson and Klitschko without going down.

Compare that to some other past champions: Louis was down ten times and out twice; Patterson was down 19 times, stopped five; Michael Moorer, down 11 times, out three. Even champions known for their toughness tumbled more often. Frazier down 11 times and stopped three; Holyfield, six times and stopped twice, Tyson five times and stopped three; Foreman four times and out once while Holmes was down five times and stopped once.

The reality is that while Lewis's chin was not of the McCall, Mercer of Tua standard, he usually took a good punch.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 17 Jun 2004, 10:46

Yes, as a big Lewis supporter over the years my main criticism was not his chin but his disdain for some opponents (some might call it arrogance). No HW should expect to get away with throwing punches from his beltline. Even when his corner was telling him to get his hands up in fights he would drop them. That's undisciplined. That's why he got KOd twice.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 17 Jun 2004, 11:03

I absolutely agree. I wouldn't say this was a common thing for Lewis, but it was when he underestimated opponents.

I still think he will/should go down as a great, but he had all the equipement to be greater than he was.

what would have happened if he didn't underestimate McCall and Rahman, and was not knocked out by either...

I'm glad to see you agree with me on the chin though, I am surprised how often people call Lewis a glass-jaw.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 17 Jun 2004, 11:29

And people will continue to disagree with you about his chin. He has a lot of detractors, many of whom have an irrational dislike for him. The most common rebuttle to your argument is that great fighters got up off the canvas, sometimes to win.

Your assessment of Lewis having all the tools to be greater than he was is a fitting epitaph for his career.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 17 Jun 2004, 11:56

Yeah, i know there will always be people who disagree, but I am personally more impressed with fighters who rarely visit the canvas, than those get get up off it.

Oh well...

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 17 Jun 2004, 12:07

I honestly think the glass-jaw rap is as much by way of ragging on him for his lack of professionalism in a number of fights as for any actual weak-chinnedness.

I don't dispute the KD numbers for the other greats above, but it would be more relevant to examine how many of those KDs were against B-level fighters, and how many of those guys were actually KOed IN THEIR PRIMES by little more than B-level fighters.

Let's analyze jezzamundo's list in more detail:

Louis was down ten times and out twice

First, the 2 KOs: Schmeling was much better than McCall and Rahman in his day, and Louis had been a pro for less than 2 years when he fought him the first time. The second KO was vs. a prime Marciano, when Luois was an old man, deperately looking for a payday due to his tax problems. Most of the KDs were against top guys like Marciano, Walcott and Braddock, and except for the Marciano fight, Louis got up off the canvas every time and went on to win the fight. Maybe not the best chin or defense ever, but certainly great recuperative powers and heart.

Patterson was down 19 times, stopped five

Patterson's only career losses are to all-time greats: Maxim, Johansson, Liston (twice), and Ali. Hell, 7 of those KDs were in the third round of the first Johansson fight, meaning that Floyd got up six times before finally being done for.

Michael Moorer, down 11 times, out three

Few people consider Moorer to be a great heavyweight, or even merely a decent heavyweight with a great chin.

Frazier down 11 times and stopped three

Seven of those KDs were vs. Foreman, six in the first fight. The only other guy to stop Frazier was Ali, after 14 rounds of sustained beating in the heat of Manila, when Frazier was clearly on the downside of his career (Ali was also past his prime, but still had a few good years left in him.)

Holyfield, six times and stopped twice

3 of those KDs were to Bowe, who in his brief prime was very, very good, and much bigger than Holyfield. Holy's only TKO loss in his prime was to Bowe in the rubber match of their epic trilogy. I discount the TKO loss to Toney for the same reason I discount Louis' KO loss to Marciano - both Holy and Louis should've retired years before those respective bouts.

Tyson five times and stopped three

First off, let me state that I don't consider Tyson, based on his career accomplishments, to be in the same league as guys like Lewis and Holyfield. That having been said, Mike does a very good chin. His only near-his-prime KO losses were to Douglas (who was very much a journeyman, but fought the fight of his life that night, i.e. he sure didn;t fight like a journeyman) and Holyfield, in both cases after taking sustained punishment. The third was against Lewis, who was in much better form at that stage of their respective careers, and again came only after a multi-round vicious beating. Tyson, even though his lapses of professionalism were much more numerous and egregious than Lewis', was never one-punch-kayoed by anyone.

Foreman four times and out once

In his prime, Foreman was only KOed by Ali, and that was as much fatigue (helped by Ali's continual whip-like combos in between Foreman's assault) as anything else. Foreman was down vs. Lyle (who was no McCall-type journeyman) but got up to win. Over a decade later, during his midlife comeback, Foreman took massive sustained punishment from a prime Holyfield without going down. One KO loss to the African heat and the greatest HW of all time is nothing to be ashamed of.

Holmes was down five times and stopped once

Holmes was down vs. Shavers - one of the biggest hitters of all time - and got up to win the fight. Similarly, Holmes got up after being knocked down by Snipes and went on to win. 3 of the remaining KDs were vs. a prime Tyson, when Holmes was pushing 40 and had been out of a ring for nearly 2 years. Holmes was never KOed in his prime.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 17 Jun 2004, 12:10

harley_man wrote:The most common rebuttle to your argument is that great fighters got up off the canvas, sometimes to win.

Precisely.

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 17 Jun 2004, 12:25

I'm pretty much in agreement with you guys: Lewis may not have had an iron chin, but it sure wasn;t glass either. A combination of the lapses in concentration and sub-par training that he displayed against a few opponents (including Klitschko, since he was training for Johnson), that you've mentioned, plus the percention on some fans' part that his style was often boring to watch (a perception that I for one don't share), ahs led a lot of people to chriticize his chi, stamina, heart, etc. unjustly.

Most of the fights cited to backup those crticisms are cases where he took an opponent too lightly, came in heavier than usual, carried his hands WAY too low, and generally looked for the one big punch instead of putting them together. Of course, to be an all-time great, those are things that shouldn't happen, so maybe he's a great with--to paraphrase jeezamundo--all the tools to have been an all-time great.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 17 Jun 2004, 12:35

dan1030 wrote:Most of the fights cited to backup those crticisms are cases where he took an opponent too lightly, came in heavier than usual, carried his hands WAY too low, and generally looked for the one big punch instead of putting them together. Of course, to be an all-time great, those are things that shouldn't happen, so maybe he's a great with--to paraphrase jeezamundo--all the tools to have been an all-time great.

Even as a big Lewis fan, I'm comfortable with that assessment, which is telling, I think.

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 17 Jun 2004, 13:54

I'm a big Lewis fan too. A grea fighter who had a few lapses in focus, but was really something else when he was on. In the hypothetical "If I had a time machine and a promoter's liscence" exercise, I'd have a hard time putting together a very long list of all-time heavyweights who I think could take him when he was really on, properly conditioned and focused.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 18 Jun 2004, 08:09

"Most of the fights cited to backup those crticisms are cases where he took an opponent too lightly, came in heavier than usual, carried his hands WAY too low, and generally looked for the one big punch instead of putting them together. Of course, to be an all-time great, those are things that shouldn't happen, so maybe he's a great with--to paraphrase jeezamundo--all the tools to have been an all-time great."

I absolutely agree Dan, although to be honest I am comfortable in placing Lennox among the all time greats, as are George Foreman and Muhummad Ali.

dan1030 · Post by **dan1030** » 18 Jun 2004, 14:27

jezzamundo wrote:"I absolutely agree Dan, although to be honest I am comfortable in placing Lennox among the all time greats, as are George Foreman and Muhummad Ali.

I guess it depends on how you rate all-time greats:
If the criteria is who--at there very best--wins a head-to-head fight, then I think Lewis qualifies. An awful lot of the guys who generally get All-Time Great recognition would be too small for him, leaving only a small handful who I'd pick over him in a fight.
If, on the other hand, we're talking about consistency and dominance over a career, longevity of career, taking on all comers, winning rematches, coming back from adversity in a fight (including coming back from knockdowns to win, etc.); well, then...Lewis still rates pretty damn high. Whether or not he rates high enough depends on how you personally prioritize these and other characteristics, and how long of a list of ATGs you want to create.

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 18 Jun 2004, 14:47

dan1030 wrote:
jezzamundo wrote:"I absolutely agree Dan, although to be honest I am comfortable in placing Lennox among the all time greats, as are George Foreman and Muhummad Ali.
I guess it depends on how you rate all-time greats:
If the criteria is who--at there very best--wins a head-to-head fight, then I think Lewis qualifies. An awful lot of the guys who generally get All-Time Great recognition would be too small for him, leaving only a small handful who I'd pick over him in a fight.
If, on the other hand, we're talking about consistency and dominance over a career, longevity of career, taking on all comers, winning rematches, coming back from adversity in a fight (including coming back from knockdowns to win, etc.); well, then...Lewis still rates pretty damn high. Whether or not he rates high enough depends on how you personally prioritize these and other characteristics, and how long of a list of ATGs you want to create.

ATGs have to be rated according to the width and breadth of their careers, with some consideration for losses on the learning curve and on the downward slide. Thus, Louis, Ali and Holmes losses when most felt they shouldn't be fighting don't detract greatly. If anything it puts their careers in perspective, perhaps even the sport itself. It allows you to look at their skills historically and see slippage, deterioration. Sometimes the careers of ATGs overlap, complicating the evaluation because people confuse the head-to-head, in-their-prime fantasy match-up with greats meeting at various stages of their careers and/or primes. Tyson-Holmes? Almost meaningless to Holmes' legacy as a 7-year HW king.

Fantasy-wise, Lennox has way too much for most outside of the modern era. He would greatly outweigh Cassius Clay and would significantly outweigh the Ali who fought Foreman. Hell, he was bigger than fat Foreman. Not that size means everything, of course.

Career-wise, Lewis lost for not so great reasons in his prime to definitely not so great opponents. That hurts his career. His last fight was very much in danger of fitting that mould. But he took KO worthy shots and hit the guy enough to cut and wobble him, thereby earning a TKO win. Lewis doesn't have any downward slide losses for us to throw out as we might for other ATGs. But his career is hurt by the two KOs because other greats took shots like that, got up and won THAT fight - not the rematch. Rematches are worth considering, sure. Any HW can get caught by one shot. But two almost identical losses?

Sorry, Lennox. You'll always be one of Canada's greatest athletes (who we share with the Brits) but you are a low top-10 ATG. Still a phenomenal achievement.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 18 Jun 2004, 21:51

jezzamundo wrote:
Those were the only two counts he took in his 14 year, 44 fight professional career, and on both occassions he wasn't fully fit. He took flush hits from Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield, Tyson and Klitschko without going down.

Compare that to some other past champions: Louis was down ten times and out twice; Patterson was down 19 times, stopped five; Michael Moorer, down 11 times, out three. Even champions known for their toughness tumbled more often. Frazier down 11 times and stopped three; Holyfield, six times and stopped twice, Tyson five times and stopped three; Foreman four times and out once while Holmes was down five times and stopped once.

The reality is that while Lewis's chin was not of the McCall, Mercer of Tua standard, he usually took a good punch.

1) Lewis was wobbled and/or seriously hurt against all of those opponents you mentioned save Tyson. Louis was knocked down several times but if you watch the films he's not hurt at all and is never forced to clinch to get out of trouble, something Lewis did quite often
2) No other HW champ was KO'd by SINGLE SHOTS twice like Lewis was, and his opponents were fringe contenders to boot. Louis-Schmaeling is a horrible comparison, b/c Louis took a dozen flush right hands and won many rds making it a competive fight before finally caving in the 12th.
3) Again, the comparisions are weak. Frazier got knocked down and out only by a prime Foreman and Lewis never fought a fighter near that calibre. And unless we see Lewis not knocked out by Vitali in a comeback fight, don't bring up the Holmes loss to Tyson or the Holyfield stoppage by Toney.
WHoever made the comment about Lewis's hands too low . . . ? he always carried his hands low . . . that was his style. Even against Tyson.

People bring up size but Lewis excelled beating the large stamina challenged behemoths that tredged around the late 90s HW scene (Tua, Briggs, Grant). The two HWs who weighed under 225 after he first stepped up to world class not only didn't get knocked out, but gave him a lot of trouble (no-name Mavoric and Holyfield). He BENIFFTED from the large HW competition, not the other way around.

Lewis, a great HW but DEF. not all time top ten. History has had too many hard punchers who were leagues ahead of McCall and Rahman, who would be VERY live against Lewis b/c one good shot and he's either wobbled or out.

FreeIkemefula · Post by **FreeIkemefula** » 21 Jun 2004, 01:45

I agree for the most part, but Lewis did not have a super chin, but it wasn't glass. He was rocked by Briggs and Bruno, but the guy only went down twice , and, unlike other legendary fighters such as Tito Trinidad, it cannot be said that Lewis didn't fight heavy punchers. He did and he only went down twice. However, I think those two losses were definately legacy ruiners. He got stopped twice with single right hands by non-punchers. With that said, his chin still isn't as bad as it is made out to be. People look to criticize him because he was content to just win, even if it was boring or ugly, but for my part I find him more exciting then some fighters like Ray Leonard or Ali.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 21 Jun 2004, 15:00

jezzamundo wrote:Lewis's chin usually gets first mention when people speak negatively of him. His two stoppage defeats, against McCall and Rahman, have to count against him because neither are/were particularly special fighters. Each landed a huge punch that connected perfectly - McCall's on the front of the chin and mouth when Lewis's momentum was propelling him forward, and Rahman's the perfect right cross, landing on the side of the jaw. He was up at six against McCall but didn't quite beat the count against Rahman.

Those were the only two counts he took in his 14 year, 44 fight professional career, and on both occassions he wasn't fully fit. He took flush hits from Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield, Tyson and Klitschko without going down.

Compare that to some other past champions: Louis was down ten times and out twice; Patterson was down 19 times, stopped five; Michael Moorer, down 11 times, out three. Even champions known for their toughness tumbled more often. Frazier down 11 times and stopped three; Holyfield, six times and stopped twice, Tyson five times and stopped three; Foreman four times and out once while Holmes was down five times and stopped once.

The reality is that while Lewis's chin was not of the McCall, Mercer of Tua standard, he usually took a good punch.

"He took flush hits from Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield, Tyson and Klitschko without going down."
Most of those fighters DIDN'T land flush full-power shots on Lennox Lewis' chin. Holyfield did, but he was never much of a puncher. Klitschko and Briggs did land flush on Lewis, but they both had him hurt, particularly Klitschko. Klitschko had Lewis very wobbily in round two, but stupidly didn't try to finish him at all.

Lewis wasn't in proper condition for the Rahman fight, but to say he wasn't in the McCall fight is just making up excuses. Essentially, that's saying "If Lewis gets blown out, it's always because he wasn't in shape." Lewis was in perfectly fine shape for the McCall fight, although he was careless, but who's fault was that? I think we all know.

Yes, Louis was down a lot more total times than Lewis, but you obviously have to look at it more closely than that. Note first that Louis had 71 professional fights, which outright dwarfs Lewis' 44, and Louis also had more fights against top opposition.

You also have to consider that both times Lewis was down, he was out. In the McCall fight, he was up, but he was staggering forward into the ref and the fight clearly needed to be stopped. Louis', on the other hand, got up almost any time he was ever down, which is the main reason he was down so much more. Against Schmeling and Marciano, you notice both times it took two knockdowns to finish him off, and against Walcott, he was down three times in all but kept getting up. He was also down against Braddock, Baer, and Galento, but again you have to notice he always got up and the two times he was knocked out, it took vicious poundings from a former heavyweight champ and a future heavyweight champ to finish Louis off.

He was never just caught with one shot from a fairly good puncher and finished right then and there the way Lewis was twice. And it's mainly that fashion of losing that sends all the criticism towards Lewis' chin. All it takes is one good flush shot and you can knock Lewis out. That's been proven twice.

But actually I don't consider Lewis' chin to be glass. I think it was weak for a heavyweight champion, but not glass.

shanbopop · Post by **shanbopop** » 27 Jun 2004, 10:56

If hed ever gotten cleanly hit hed have quite a few more KO losses...Tyson never got a good clean hit on him an only won one rd ...rd 1!!

Lennox Lewis: What glass jaw?

Lennox Lewis: What glass jaw?

Re: Lennox Lewis: What glass jaw?

Re: Lennox Lewis: What glass jaw?