ALI VS. TYSON

[witherspoon]

Collins is an Ali shill.

Collins buys into the myth of Ali's greatness.

Collins can't accept another persons intelligent view because it conflicts with the myth of Ali, so he resorts to insults.

[Collins2000]

[NumberOneBigDog]

well a lot of the old crew can't take the truth on this one. Collins is probably old as dirt and believes the hype. Tyson would make him fight which he really couldn't cope with. 1 maybe two rounds at the most. This one is an easy call. At least collins seems to have a sense of humor i guess.

[Collins2000]

well a lot of the old crew can't take the truth on this one. Collins is probably old as dirt and believes the hype. Tyson would make him fight which he really couldn't cope with. 1 maybe two rounds at the most. This one is an easy call. At least collins seems to have a sense of humor i guess.

Peak Tyson would have had an easy time with Ali................. The 1981 version of Ali that is.

When you say old crew I picture Boxbuzz, Bazza & Jimbo. Please don't link me with that insipid bunch.

[NumberOneBigDog]

no idea on those guys, But Tyson was a locomotive at his peak, he just pulverizes any version of Ali. In fact he beats anyone peak vs peak....bar none

[Ezzard]

- I'd say that is about as minimal as limited boxing analysis gets.

I've pointed out Ali was vulnerable throughout his career by a wide range of fighters. This is FACTUAL and PROVEN. Now, maybe in your unsupported fashion you can come up with the "perfect" version of Ali, fine, claim that tiny slice of Ali whoops all and be done with it. I could do the same for Liston, Dempsey, Louis, and so on including the much hated Iron Mike.

Last I checked, the only heavy champ never upset officially is Rocky, so in the fogged up mists of muddle that pass for much boxing analysis, he beats all. Factually, he had his fair share of trials and tribulations that with different judges, refs, or slightly improved versions of his opponents, the record might show some defeats.

At any rate, before 5 yrs of his career had passed, Tyson has 6 KOs between the 5th and the 10th rds over an excellent class of opponent as well as 4 UDs, two 10 and 12 rounders apiece in his 37-0 record. Notable in that every one of his wins shows at the very least a wide scoring advantage on the cards if not a shutout.

If you can find a better record of excellence over a similar time range, have at it and get back to us in, oh, maybe a hun'erd years.

I'd say that is about as minimal as limited boxing analysis gets.

I've pointed out Ali was vulnerable throughout his career by a wide range of fighters. This is FACTUAL and PROVEN.

You mean that every fighter is vulnerable to a wide range of fighters? That’s factual. Everyone would agree with that so taking your high-handed line you must mean that Ali in particular was vulnerable. With this in mind I’ll share some great facts...like how he used iffy substances on his gloves to force Liston to quit, got the mob/muslims to pay Sonny off in the rematch, only beat Foreman because he was “air-conditioned out”, was robbed by whitey against Frazier, shot Cleveland Williams in the back prior to their fight and due to a phoney torn glove took off between rounds to recuperate after being dropped by Cooper, enjoyed a 2 week holiday in the Bahamas only to return for the next round fully rested (those bast*rds in the media did some tricky editing in that fight). Looking through your post I can see every sentence (that you obviously spend oh so long putting together) is bulging with proof, facts, supporting evidence and the wisest of rationales. You’re obviously some world renown barrister taking time off from some important human rights crises to spare your vault of evidence and facts with us.

Now, maybe in your unsupported fashion you can come up with the "perfect" version of Ali, fine, claim that tiny slice of Ali whoops all and be done with it. I could do the same for Liston, Dempsey, Louis, and so on including the much hated Iron Mike.

I’ll try and match the proof and facts that you put me to shame with earlier in this post, but it’s going to be hard, if not impossible, to match those opening three sentences, all of which are choc-a-bloc with substantiated confirmation.

One thing I would like to say is that Tyson is not hated. He simply has a wide fan base who act irrationally in their defence of his abilities and his shortcomings. Mike has a built in “Get Out Of Jail Free” card but nobody else does. So we’re being asked to take every other fighter, look at what actually happened to them in their careers, assess their greatness, factor in their weaknesses and come up with an assessment...then compare them with a guy who the moment something went wrong was no longer at his peak. Or put it like this...Tyson should not be blamed for getting stopped by Douglas or Holyfield and we shouldn’t blame him for quitting in the rematch BUT we can’t admit any “facts”, or what my untrained amateur legal mind might call “excuses”, for any other fighter. Berbick claimed poisonous gas was released into his hotel room before the fight with Tyson. This is a fact too.

Last I checked, the only heavy champ never upset officially is Rocky, so in the fogged up mists of muddle that pass for much boxing analysis, he beats all. Factually, he had his fair share of trials and tribulations that with different judges, refs, or slightly improved versions of his opponents, the record might show some defeats.

Are you saying here that it’s a fact that Marciano struggled with some of his opponents because if you are then you’re fast becoming the Sherlock Holmes of boxing history. I never thought of it in that way. Thanks for pointing it out Brougton. Are you going to start talking to me about maths again soon? Can’t wait for that one: The Tyson equation; The Iron Mike algorithm. A pure, unadulterated formula for why a man who lost all his big fights was in fact the greatest of them all. Looking forward to all of the new facts you’re going to be unearthing.

At any rate, before 5 yrs of his career had passed, Tyson has 6 KOs between the 5th and the 10th rds over an excellent class of opponent as well as 4 UDs, two 10 and 12 rounders apiece in his 37-0 record. Notable in that every one of his wins shows at the very least a wide scoring advantage on the cards if not a shutout.

That’s some mighty fine research right there (boxrec?). It’s only now I’m being humbled by your flypaper memory and Newtonian insight and discovery that I am beginning to understand what boxing analysis is, or rather can be...

I just think that Tyson could blow away opponents quicker than many, in a more dominant fashion than many, because that was his style. A bit like a Foreman or a Liston...but it doesn’t mean much else than that... Knowing that boxing history is littered with examples where a fighter who blows down opponents’ houses can be beaten by someone who struggled (relatively) with the same men, I made the schoolboy error of thinking that the usual rules apply to Mike. I guess the only supporting evidence I have is that he lost in the ring to opponents who struggled with guys he blew out. Check out boxrec again, you’ll see those fights listed.

If you can find a better record of excellence over a similar time range, have at it and get back to us in, oh, maybe a hun'erd years.

That’s what I like about you, Broughton, all that proof, all those facts but still time to adopt an affectation like ‘hun’erd’, just to patronise the little man. That’s a rare and special gift. You should give up the legal practice and run for office (or do some stand-up).

[ringsider]

Just ask George Foreman how easy it was to beat up an aging Ali.

[Jaywheel]

- I'd say that is about as minimal as limited boxing analysis gets.

I've pointed out Ali was vulnerable throughout his career by a wide range of fighters. This is FACTUAL and PROVEN. Now, maybe in your unsupported fashion you can come up with the "perfect" version of Ali, fine, claim that tiny slice of Ali whoops all and be done with it. I could do the same for Liston, Dempsey, Louis, and so on including the much hated Iron Mike.

Last I checked, the only heavy champ never upset officially is Rocky, so in the fogged up mists of muddle that pass for much boxing analysis, he beats all. Factually, he had his fair share of trials and tribulations that with different judges, refs, or slightly improved versions of his opponents, the record might show some defeats.

At any rate, before 5 yrs of his career had passed, Tyson has 6 KOs between the 5th and the 10th rds over an excellent class of opponent as well as 4 UDs, two 10 and 12 rounders apiece in his 37-0 record. Notable in that every one of his wins shows at the very least a wide scoring advantage on the cards if not a shutout.

If you can find a better record of excellence over a similar time range, have at it and get back to us in, oh, maybe a hun'erd years.

I'd say that is about as minimal as limited boxing analysis gets.

I've pointed out Ali was vulnerable throughout his career by a wide range of fighters. This is FACTUAL and PROVEN.

You mean that every fighter is vulnerable to a wide range of fighters? That’s factual. Everyone would agree with that so taking your high-handed line you must mean that Ali in particular was vulnerable. With this in mind I’ll share some great facts...like how he used iffy substances on his gloves to force Liston to quit, got the mob/muslims to pay Sonny off in the rematch, only beat Foreman because he was “air-conditioned out”, was robbed by whitey against Frazier, shot Cleveland Williams in the back prior to their fight and due to a phoney torn glove took off between rounds to recuperate after being dropped by Cooper, enjoyed a 2 week holiday in the Bahamas only to return for the next round fully rested (those bast*rds in the media did some tricky editing in that fight). Looking through your post I can see every sentence (that you obviously spend oh so long putting together) is bulging with proof, facts, supporting evidence and the wisest of rationales. You’re obviously some world renown barrister taking time off from some important human rights crises to spare your vault of evidence and facts with us.

Now, maybe in your unsupported fashion you can come up with the "perfect" version of Ali, fine, claim that tiny slice of Ali whoops all and be done with it. I could do the same for Liston, Dempsey, Louis, and so on including the much hated Iron Mike.

I’ll try and match the proof and facts that you put me to shame with earlier in this post, but it’s going to be hard, if not impossible, to match those opening three sentences, all of which are choc-a-bloc with substantiated confirmation.

One thing I would like to say is that Tyson is not hated. He simply has a wide fan base who act irrationally in their defence of his abilities and his shortcomings. Mike has a built in “Get Out Of Jail Free” card but nobody else does. So we’re being asked to take every other fighter, look at what actually happened to them in their careers, assess their greatness, factor in their weaknesses and come up with an assessment...then compare them with a guy who the moment something went wrong was no longer at his peak. Or put it like this...Tyson should not be blamed for getting stopped by Douglas or Holyfield and we shouldn’t blame him for quitting in the rematch BUT we can’t admit any “facts”, or what my untrained amateur legal mind might call “excuses”, for any other fighter. Berbick claimed poisonous gas was released into his hotel room before the fight with Tyson. This is a fact too.

Last I checked, the only heavy champ never upset officially is Rocky, so in the fogged up mists of muddle that pass for much boxing analysis, he beats all. Factually, he had his fair share of trials and tribulations that with different judges, refs, or slightly improved versions of his opponents, the record might show some defeats.

Are you saying here that it’s a fact that Marciano struggled with some of his opponents because if you are then you’re fast becoming the Sherlock Holmes of boxing history. I never thought of it in that way. Thanks for pointing it out Brougton. Are you going to start talking to me about maths again soon? Can’t wait for that one: The Tyson equation; The Iron Mike algorithm. A pure, unadulterated formula for why a man who lost all his big fights was in fact the greatest of them all. Looking forward to all of the new facts you’re going to be unearthing.

At any rate, before 5 yrs of his career had passed, Tyson has 6 KOs between the 5th and the 10th rds over an excellent class of opponent as well as 4 UDs, two 10 and 12 rounders apiece in his 37-0 record. Notable in that every one of his wins shows at the very least a wide scoring advantage on the cards if not a shutout.

That’s some mighty fine research right there (boxrec?). It’s only now I’m being humbled by your flypaper memory and Newtonian insight and discovery that I am beginning to understand what boxing analysis is, or rather can be...

I just think that Tyson could blow away opponents quicker than many, in a more dominant fashion than many, because that was his style. A bit like a Foreman or a Liston...but it doesn’t mean much else than that... Knowing that boxing history is littered with examples where a fighter who blows down opponents’ houses can be beaten by someone who struggled (relatively) with the same men, I made the schoolboy error of thinking that the usual rules apply to Mike. I guess the only supporting evidence I have is that he lost in the ring to opponents who struggled with guys he blew out. Check out boxrec again, you’ll see those fights listed.

If you can find a better record of excellence over a similar time range, have at it and get back to us in, oh, maybe a hun'erd years.

That’s what I like about you, Broughton, all that proof, all those facts but still time to adopt an affectation like ‘hun’erd’, just to patronise the little man. That’s a rare and special gift. You should give up the legal practice and run for office (or do some stand-up).

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

That’s what I like about you, Broughton, all that proof, all those facts but still time to adopt an affectation like ‘hun’erd’, just to patronise the little man. That’s a rare and special gift. You should give up the legal practice and run for office (or do some stand-up).

- A hun'erd more where that came from, and hun'erds more after that, so I'm angling to be beloved by all, or at least a hun'erd, not merely liked by a single little man.

T'anks anyways and all that, but, alas, I'm about as funny as a one legged man-child against Danny Williams and I fear even a past his prime doddering Letterman could skewer me with no problems.

Interesting angle on my "legal practice" since my best friend friend told me I should've been a lawyer after he ran out of money and couldn't pay to complete the house I built for him. He settled out of court for full value once he got some more.

Ruby Fitz has one of the most storied legacies in history, but just being greater than most every fighter who lived ain't gonna count for two cents against the array of heavies and other fighters who followed him in a one on one match.

The best version of Ali against the best Tyson would be a great fight. Have no problems with anyone actually picking Ali as he was exceptional at his best, It's just that you chaps do such a poor job making a case for him that it's like damning him with faint praise.

The gauntlet has been thrown. Find a better streak of pure ring excellence than the substantial 5 yr period in the record books by Tyson. We already know that's hands down the best start by any heavy, but one would think with the proliferation of HOF heavies, nearly every heavy champ has been elected until the ABC era, we might expect a similar run of excellence in their primes.

Hard to believe that the writing was already scribbled on the wall that Tyson's career was essentially over before 5 yrs passed, but that's a story for another generation who can sit back and more accurately judge the events of these turbulent times.

It falls to this gen to make a case how Ali is gonna beat Tyson aligned with his professional team of mentors, a formidable who's who in the HOF.

Me, I kinda fancy the anchor punch theory. "We" knows that Ali carried all his opponents like any good dance partner would, EXCEPT Liston in the rematch. Could have finished up with 41 straight one round KOs and a perfect record, but the wise Ali knew everyone would accuse him of lacking stamina and beating up no hopers, so he gave the world hope, truth, and justice for all.

See how easy that is? Now, you>>>>>>>>>>

[hitman09]

This one is pretty simple to anyone with a brain. Ali is out of there in a few rounds....He doesn't have what it takes to cope with Mikes ferocity. He never faced a fighter like MT due to the lack of talent in that era. Every grampa always wants to say that Ali was great, but it's just mostly wishful thinking. He got beat by a lot of people...plus he was always protected.....nobody protected MT.

no idea on those guys, But Tyson was a locomotive at his peak, he just pulverizes any version of Ali. In fact he beats anyone peak vs peak....bar none

You should get your fvcking head examined.....Lack of talent? Are you serious?
As for him beating anyone peak v peak.....Any one of Louis, Johnson, Walcott, Langford, Marciano, Fraser, Foreman and Ali beats peak Tyson EASILY. I'd say even V.Klitschko could do it.... Can't believe you are actually serious - is this a joke?

[BoxBuzz]

Tyson did not have the intestinal fortitude to operate at max torque against those who would not be intimidated.
Actual Examples:
*Holyfield on any night
*Douglas on a night where he promised his dearly departed mum he'd bring home the championship
*Lewis at any time

Those are just a few examples....now take the same formula and template it against others with formidable will,skill and good chins......
He falls down flat against Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Dempsey, Louis, and others. Somebody walk this goofy dog......PLEASE.

[evndrbsn]

Just gonna add my take:

Tyson had a ferocious left hook, which Ali had trouble with his entire career. Surely that would land on occasion, possibly even shake up Ali, but Ali would overcome it and take a comfortable decision or score a late stoppage. Would have been a pleasing bout to the eyes, no doubt.

[Djanders]

I would expect to see Muhammad Ali defeat Mike Tyson, by unanimous decision or late round stoppage. It would be a great fight to watch!

[Zelley]

Of course a prime ali would dominant Tyson.

He dominanted Cooper, Jones and Frazier so well, didnt he?

There is some doubt about Ali's domination of both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.

[witherspoon]

I would give Tyson a chance at beating a prime Ali.
It all depends on Tysons mentality, and i'd say he keeps it together during a very tough fight, so long as he has a cool headed cornerman giving solid instructions between rounds. Tucker came up with a decent stragedy to beat Tyson but could not quite carry it through - Tyson remained cool and patiently did what he had to do to win - who is to say Tyson would not find a way to cut the ring down on Ali and force Ali to fight close?
The closest Ali in his prime came to Tysons power was Liston, and he looked like a man in his late 40's at the first fight - just look at the state of his mid-section in the training footage.
I see a very interesting, maybe tactical fight that Ali wins late or on points - the chance i give Tyson is a small one, but i certainly would not write him off.
The biggest factor that swings it for Ali is what we know about the respective mentality of these guys when faced with adversity.
The biggest question mark is wether Mike, at the prime of his physical ability, would be able to maintain his mental discipline under the kind of adversity Ali would provide.
IMHO.

[BoxBuzz]

Great point Witherspoon. This seals it for me because Ali had the perfect mentality to break Mike Down before they ever got in the ring. Think about it, no one dared to mock or try to get under Mike's skin because they DID NOT WANT MIKE ANY MADDER THAN HE ALREADY WAS!!.....Ali would ridicule him in advance and take Mike apart mentally months before the fight. No way Mike hold's it together after what Ali would put him through in terms of "Press Spectacle". I'd love to hear a credible counterpoint to this argument.


This one is over before it starts....a real turnaround from most of Mike's fights (which were also often over before they started but in Mike's favor.) Ali (Much like Jimmy Young) simply could not be "outpsyched". So there goes Mike's best ace in the hole.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...It all depends on Tysons mentality..."

That's all anyone need know about this bout, right there. Tyson loses, & above is why.

[witherspoon]

'It all depends on Tysons mentality'......
I agree, reading those 6 words has the same affect on me!
But I was just trying (optimistically, maybe) to envisage a fight where Tyson's demons don't interfere and Ali is able to prevail against the good fighter Tyson showed he could be.
I admit that although I base that on Tyson's performance against Tucker, he did show a little immaturity post fight, in hindsight that post fight interview was predictive of Tysons failings.

[Grimm]

Why wouldn't a large strong heavyweight like Ali be able to outbox Tyson?

Tyson's speed would be neutralized as Ali would be faster than anyone he ever faced.

His power will be a factor against anyone but Ali withstood a hell of alot of punishment from heavy hitters, so I would say the knockout would be highly unlikely.

Ali should be able to outbox Tyson until the 10th or 11th when Tyson bites him or tries to break his arm and gets Dq'd/tko'd.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Why wouldn't a large strong heavyweight like Ali be able to outbox Tyson?

Tyson's speed would be neutralized as Ali would be faster than anyone he ever faced.

His power will be a factor against anyone but Ali withstood a hell of alot of punishment from heavy hitters, so I would say the knockout would be highly unlikely.

Ali should be able to outbox Tyson until the 10th or 11th when Tyson bites him or tries to break his arm and gets Dq'd/tko'd.

You're crediting the prime Ali with the ability absorb punishment he only exhibited later in his career. Personally, I tend to think Ali in the 60's couldn't absorb the battering his older self did.

Ali is the only fighter I see consistently bestowed with abilities he never proved existed in his prime, but, rather, only later in his career-timeline. I've never seen anyone say, for instance, "George Foreman was an absolute killer in the ring, but he was mentally strong & relaxed & calm in his comeback, so I'm going to transplant that capacity onto the prime version."

[Grimm]

Why wouldn't a large strong heavyweight like Ali be able to outbox Tyson?

Tyson's speed would be neutralized as Ali would be faster than anyone he ever faced.

His power will be a factor against anyone but Ali withstood a hell of alot of punishment from heavy hitters, so I would say the knockout would be highly unlikely.

Ali should be able to outbox Tyson until the 10th or 11th when Tyson bites him or tries to break his arm and gets Dq'd/tko'd.

You're crediting the prime Ali with the ability absorb punishment he only exhibited later in his career. Personally, I tend to think Ali in the 60's couldn't absorb the battering his older self did.

Ali is the only fighter I see consistently bestowed with abilities he never proved existed in his prime, but, rather, only later in his career-timeline. I've never seen anyone say, for instance, "George Foreman was an absolute killer in the ring, but he was mentally strong & relaxed & calm in his comeback, so I'm going to transplant that capacity onto the prime version."

Being mentally strong,relaxed and calm are not physical attributes, these are based totally on your mind set.

Ali's ability to withstand punishment was a physical thing which he could not change, if anything his chin would've gotten worse as he aged.

The only reason a younger Ali didn't absorb the type of punishment that the older one did is because he was too fast to have to.

[Collins2000]

Why wouldn't a large strong heavyweight like Ali be able to outbox Tyson?

Tyson's speed would be neutralized as Ali would be faster than anyone he ever faced.

His power will be a factor against anyone but Ali withstood a hell of alot of punishment from heavy hitters, so I would say the knockout would be highly unlikely.

Ali should be able to outbox Tyson until the 10th or 11th when Tyson bites him or tries to break his arm and gets Dq'd/tko'd.

You're crediting the prime Ali with the ability absorb punishment he only exhibited later in his career. Personally, I tend to think Ali in the 60's couldn't absorb the battering his older self did.

Ali is the only fighter I see consistently bestowed with abilities he never proved existed in his prime, but, rather, only later in his career-timeline. I've never seen anyone say, for instance, "George Foreman was an absolute killer in the ring, but he was mentally strong & relaxed & calm in his comeback, so I'm going to transplant that capacity onto the prime version."

Being mentally strong,relaxed and calm are not physical attributes, these are based totally on your mind set.

Ali's ability to withstand punishment was a physical thing which he could not change, if anything his chin would've gotten worse as he aged.

The only reason a younger Ali didn't absorb the type of punishment that the older one did is because he was too fast to have to.

I agree.

We'll never really really know if pre forced layoff Ali had the chin of later Ali as he was way too good in the 60's to get drawn into those slow motion wars he got into in the 70's.

I think he must have always had the chin as it's rarely something you develop later in your career unless you are perhaps in the wrong weight class originally a la Eusebio Pedroza.