How good is the current Heavyweight division ?

[hitman09]

Suggesting the cut was down to luck is like saying landing a punch on the chin and knocking somebody out is luck. Both are the potential consequences of landing a good shot. Lewis landed a great shot on Vitali. Nothing lucky about it IMO, in the same way that Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman sparking Lennox were not lucky. As someone once said, 'Luck is where preparedness meets opportunity'.

not really, throwing a punch you're aiming to knock somebody out, that's your aim, but it was'nt lennox's aim to cut vitali with that punch. anything you do that's not planned is luck even though the possibility of it happening is possible.

By that definition just about everything you do is luck, and every punch that didn't KO your opponent would be bad luck.

There is a difference between being unsuccessful and being unlucky

[champ4ever]

Do boxers aim to KO somebody with every punch? Many fighters would argue that it is when you are trying to KO somebody that you are least likely to. I would suggest that you are trying to either score points (particularly a lesser puncher) and / or cause damage, which may be in the form of cuts or dazing an opponent or scoring a knockdown.

not score a knockout with every punch, but your aim of landing a punch is to hurt your opponent, and i'm sure lennox's punch was'nt meant to cut his opponent, that was like a bonus.

anyway, i think personally lennox would of won anyway as he was the stronger fighter later on landing the better punches. people bring up the scorecards, but it was only the sixth round, still has a whole second half of the fight to go, and lennox IMO was heading for a stoppage win. that's my opinion

I see you've got yourself into a good scrap here Champ

Who's winning

well i don't want to make out like i'm a vitali fan because i'm far from it because vitali IMO is actually bad for boxing because he has no long term plans for boxing to unify the whole division, so IMO that's no good.

all i'm saying is if you do something that is not entirely planned, then it can be classed as a bit of luck.

[champ4ever]

IMO it does'nt matter about the cut, lennox was on his way to victory anyway. vitali blew his best chance in beating lennox by not stopping him in the second round.

[tobyh5]

There is no such thing as a lucky punch. The bell rings for a round, that means in the next three minutes punches are going to come. It does not say how they will come or when. You need to make sure you do not get hit. Every punch thrown in a round is thrown with an intention behind it, even eyes closed ones like Ollie McCall.

You have to be ready to be hit and look out for punches in that three minute spell. It is boxing, punches are thrown. If you are caught with a punch during a round it means you have failed to defend yourself or move out of the way adequetley. No such thing as a lucky punch

[Matt W]

[/quote] all i'm saying is if you do something that is not entirely planned, then it can be classed as a bit of luck.[/quote]

I don't disagree with that, ultimately many things in life are unpredictable. Planning and preparation is a skill but means little without the ability to adapt when necessary (which incidentally Lennox did very well against Vitali). The problem for me is that the infrerence of Lennox being 'lucky' in cutting Vitali is wrong in a sport where causing damage by hitting somebody is the aim of the game.

[hitman09]

There is no such thing as a lucky punch. The bell rings for a round, that means in the next three minutes punches are going to come. It does not say how they will come or when. You need to make sure you do not get hit. Every punch thrown in a round is thrown with an intention behind it, even eyes closed ones like Ollie McCall.

You have to be ready to be hit and look out for punches in that three minute spell. It is boxing, punches are thrown. If you are caught with a punch during a round it means you have failed to defend yourself or move out of the way adequetley. No such thing as a lucky punch

The punch hitting wasn't lucky, the fact that it cut Vitaly was.

[Quixall]

I should have named this thread....

"Did Lewis set out to intentionally cut Klitschko.....Or was it luck ? "

[Quixall]

I should have named this thread....

"Did Lewis set out to intentionally cut Klitschko.....Or was it luck ? "

He set out to punch him, and when you punch people it can do damage, so it was not luck

The whole 'Lewis was luck to cut (and therefore beat) Vitali' thing is nonsense. Lewis came in overweight and undermotivated, and still lived with the man many now see as the #1.

Very true,

That was the worst i'd ever seen Lewis, even worse than when he fought Rahman in South Africa and that was pretty bad, in terms of conditioning and motivation etc. I think that fight highlighted how limited Vitali was, because if he had anything about him, he should have stopped Lennox way before the cut and he did'nt. The point here, is that you never know what damage a punch will do, but one thing that you do know, is that if you don't conect with a punch, you won't do any damage at all and so in that context it can't be described as a lucky punch....

[hitman09]

I should have named this thread....

"Did Lewis set out to intentionally cut Klitschko.....Or was it luck ? "

He set out to punch him, and when you punch people it can do damage, so it was not luck

The whole 'Lewis was luck to cut (and therefore beat) Vitali' thing is nonsense. Lewis came in overweight and undermotivated, and still lived with the man many now see as the #1.

Does it detract from Vitali's ability that his skin happened to split when he was hit? I think that is the question, as the thread is about how good the current HWs are!!!

[Quixall]

I should have named this thread....

"Did Lewis set out to intentionally cut Klitschko.....Or was it luck ? "

He set out to punch him, and when you punch people it can do damage, so it was not luck

The whole 'Lewis was luck to cut (and therefore beat) Vitali' thing is nonsense. Lewis came in overweight and undermotivated, and still lived with the man many now see as the #1.

Does it detract from Vitali's ability that his skin happened to split when he was hit? I think that is the question, as the thread is about how good the current HWs are!!!

My own opinion about Vitali, is that he is the best heavyweight at the minute. I think that he would have beaten most of the 1980's and 1990's fighters, apart from a prime Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield, but i don't think he would have been able to compete against the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton or Holmes.

[hitman09]

Lucky: adjective used to describe when something unexpected occurs, which is not intended, which bestows an advantage upon a person or thing
As Lewis didn't PLAN to cut Vitaly, but he DID, he got an unexpected advantage which he didn't consciously strive for, and was therefore LUCKY :!: :!: :!:

[tobyh5]

Lucky: adjective used to describe when something unexpected occurs, which is not intended, which bestows an advantage upon a person or thing
As Lewis didn't PLAN to cut Vitaly, but he DID, he got an unexpected advantage which he didn't consciously strive for, and was therefore LUCKY :!: :!: :!:

Then every cut victory is lucky and many knockouts also are as some knockout blows were intended to hit the target area but was not "expected" by the thrower to KO the other guy.

I once scored a knockout in a tournament in Bodmin when I caught a guy with a punch that was meant to open him up for a follow up shot but instead knocked him flat on his back. I did not expect to drop him with the shot even though I was beating him easily, I was surprised it dropped him, making it "unexpected". Damn I was lucky that night

[Asterix]

Lucky: adjective used to describe when something unexpected occurs, which is not intended, which bestows an advantage upon a person or thing
As Lewis didn't PLAN to cut Vitaly, but he DID, he got an unexpected advantage which he didn't consciously strive for, and was therefore LUCKY :!: :!: :!:

You're way too hung up on the word "lucky". Lewis won and deserved to win. That's it.

[hitman09]

Lucky: adjective used to describe when something unexpected occurs, which is not intended, which bestows an advantage upon a person or thing
As Lewis didn't PLAN to cut Vitaly, but he DID, he got an unexpected advantage which he didn't consciously strive for, and was therefore LUCKY :!: :!: :!:

Then every cut victory is lucky and many knockouts also are as some knockout blows were intended to hit the target area but was not "expected" by the thrower to KO the other guy.

I once scored a knockout in a tournament in Bodmin when I caught a guy with a punch that was meant to open him up for a follow up shot but instead knocked him flat on his back. I did not expect to drop him with the shot even though I was beating him easily, I was surprised it dropped him, making it "unexpected". Damn I was lucky that night

Maybe the opposition was just shite. But in a fight you don't intend to win on cuts, surely you intend to KO the opponent

[Quixall]

He set out to punch him, and when you punch people it can do damage, so it was not luck

The whole 'Lewis was luck to cut (and therefore beat) Vitali' thing is nonsense. Lewis came in overweight and undermotivated, and still lived with the man many now see as the #1.[/quote]
Very true,

That was the worst i'd ever seen Lewis, even worse than when he fought Rahman in South Africa and that was pretty bad, in terms of conditioning and motivation etc. I think that fight highlighted how limited Vitali was, because if he had anything about him, he should have stopped Lennox way before the cut and he did'nt. The point here, is that you never know what damage a punch will do, but one thing that you do know, is that if you don't conect with a punch, you won't do any damage at all and so in that context it can't be described as a lucky punch....[/quote]

When he came out after the first bell my mate said, "eff me, he is finished!" His legs looked awful, it was terrible to watch, but he then dogged Vitali out, and was turning the tide in my mind.

As you say VK pinged him with shots but was unable to put Lewis over, mad really when you think that they said Lewis had no jaw. Lewis plugged away and reaped the rewards.

All banter aside I should explain to the new posters that I am a Lewis fanatic, and the way they tried to steal the glory of his win from him makes me want to kill someone.

Anyway, just managed to find my gun, see you all later in the week, or read about me in the news tomorrow. I am about to 'cap some ass' over the way they chased Lennox Lewis out of the ring like some criminal, and lauded some guy in his place who had half a face at the end of the fight.[/quote]
I saw most of Lennox's fights and like your mate, i too thought that he was going to be stopped by Klitschko, because at times he looked out on his feer. But your right, he weathered the storm and then started to xatch Klitschkp with some big shots that wobbled him.

This video may wind you up Terrence

It's Larry Mercahnt interviewing Lennox after the Klitschko fight and basically saying that if Lennox had'nt have cut Klitschko, then he would have lost, because he was behind on points etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWKROioRYfQ

I'd love to smash Merchant's face in, the smug bastard

[tobyh5]

Lucky: adjective used to describe when something unexpected occurs, which is not intended, which bestows an advantage upon a person or thing
As Lewis didn't PLAN to cut Vitaly, but he DID, he got an unexpected advantage which he didn't consciously strive for, and was therefore LUCKY :!: :!: :!:

Then every cut victory is lucky and many knockouts also are as some knockout blows were intended to hit the target area but was not "expected" by the thrower to KO the other guy.

I once scored a knockout in a tournament in Bodmin when I caught a guy with a punch that was meant to open him up for a follow up shot but instead knocked him flat on his back. I did not expect to drop him with the shot even though I was beating him easily, I was surprised it dropped him, making it "unexpected". Damn I was lucky that night

Maybe the opposition was just shite

Of course it was, I tried to avoid anyone who had any chance of winning, which did not prevent me from getting sparked in two rounds by Joe Harvey (losing heavyweight ABA finalist last year) although in fairness he did outweigh me by 7 kilos!!!

I weighed in clothed, stupidly at 83kg and he was 90 in his pants. I am only 5ft 9 but was a fat fornicator for a short while before training back down to middle.

[hitman09]

read the edit

[tobyh5]

read the edit

I prefered how I felt the original sounded Hitman as you are right, all my mates laugh and say that amount of KO's I have scored must mean I seek out dwarfs!!!! It is a going joke with one of my mates!

In fact, I was at an unlicensed show on Sunday in Penzance in Cornwall and someone came up and said, "didnt I see you knock out someone in Plymouth a couple years ago?" To which my mate, the wit, chipped in with, "Was this person a midget, possibly even a dwarf?"

lol, tis true mate, I only fight those that look like they cant fight!! Makes you look 'arder lol lol lol

[hitman09]

read the edit

I prefered how I felt the original sounded Hitman as you are right, all my mates laugh and say that amount of KO's I have scored must mean I seek out dwarfs!!!! It is a going joke with one of my mates!

In fact, I was at an unlicensed show on Sunday in Penzance in Cornwall and someone came up and said, "didnt I see you knock out someone in Plymouth a couple years ago?" To which my mate, the wit, chipped in with, "Was this person a midget, possibly even a dwarf?"

lol, tis true mate, I only fight those that look like they cant fight!! Makes you look 'arder lol lol lol

Haw many KOs?

[champ4ever]

is this " luck, or no luck" debate still going on?

it's funny because you'll probably find we all agree lennox would of won anyway, so it really would'nt of mattered, and does'nt matter anyway. it does'nt change the fact that lennox caused the cut legitimately, which is the main thing really.

[tobyh5]

not as many as I made that sound reading it again. But enough, boxed ABA, a few unlicenced but gloved and I always seem to put involved on nights out although trying to turn over a new leaf this year since an unsavory incident on New Years Eve.

[banjo]

I'm waiting for somebody to say Jackson hit Graham with a lucky punch so I can LOL

[hitman09]

Lucky: adjective used to describe when something unexpected occurs, which is not intended, which bestows an advantage upon a person or thing
As Lewis didn't PLAN to cut Vitaly, but he DID, he got an unexpected advantage which he didn't consciously strive for, and was therefore LUCKY :!: :!: :!:

Right. So he threw the punch subconsciously, well, they always did say that Lewis had mother issues.

That punch was not unexpected. Lewis did not throw it and think, 'What was that siht right there?!'

You can throw the OED up in here, I do not think it was luck, and agree that you are hung up on that one. We disagree, shit happens.

Quixal, what is all that aobut mate, logged on to get a phone number for something and I find myself compelled to relive that interview again. As the Coburn said, "This just mean, man!"

One good thing has come out of it all, going to watch the fight again

The cut that resulted from the punch was the unexpected bit

[Quixall]

Lucky: adjective used to describe when something unexpected occurs, which is not intended, which bestows an advantage upon a person or thing
As Lewis didn't PLAN to cut Vitaly, but he DID, he got an unexpected advantage which he didn't consciously strive for, and was therefore LUCKY :!: :!: :!:

Right. So he threw the punch subconsciously, well, they always did say that Lewis had mother issues.

That punch was not unexpected. Lewis did not throw it and think, 'What was that siht right there?!'

You can throw the OED up in here, I do not think it was luck, and agree that you are hung up on that one. We disagree, shit happens.

Quixal, what is all that aobut mate, logged on to get a phone number for something and I find myself compelled to relive that interview again. As the Coburn said, "This just mean, man!"

One good thing has come out of it all, going to watch the fight again

You what Terrence ?

[Quixall]

is this " luck, or no luck" debate still going on?

it's funny because you'll probably find we all agree lennox would of won anyway, so it really would'nt of mattered, and does'nt matter anyway. it does'nt change the fact that lennox caused the cut legitimately, which is the main thing really.

True.