Hearns vs Leonard II: For Hearns WBC Super welter title in

[Elton John]

Mr John, I think you need to quit while you're behind.

You're getting well & truly wasted on this thread.

It's funny how you say that people are overrating Leonard, when from reading your posts on here, it would appear that you are overrating Hearns to an even greater degree.

Don't get me wrong, Hearns was fantastic: I love the guy; one of my favourite fighters ever, but the way how you talk about him, as another poster on here has said, you put him up as the 2nd coming of Godzilla.

Why would you denigrate people for daring to suggest that a fighter, aged only 28, with the skills, stamina, chin & nous might last 12 rounds with Tommy Hearns circa 1984?

Lesser fighters than SRL went 12 with the peak 154lb Hearns, so why not SRL?

What about the Hagler fight?

6ft 1in Tommy had all these big muscles at 154, so why were they not bigger at 160, thus making him even more of a super man you claim?

Why was this boxing Godzilla you speak of decimated so easily by Hagler (please don't quote the ludicrious Manny Steward, "somebody massaged Tommy's legs before the fight" line ( ), as he always had a ridiculous excuse for Tommy's defeats)?

Has it not occurred to you that Tommy's opponents at some point in the fight might actually hit him back?

As we all know, Tommy was not blessed with the greatest stamina & durability, so what if the fair punching, fast handed & supremely skilled Leonard had hit him with a good shot & Hearns had gone down?

Unlike Leonard (who you say is overrated), Hearns may not have got back up (or be in any condition to fight on), as we saw a few times in his career.

Despite your mocking & perceived arrogance, you have actually made some decent points & I respect all opinions, but as a previous poster has said on this thread, you cannot say that someone is wrong when talking about a mythcial bout between two evenly matched & great fighter like Tommy & Ray.

How am I getting wasted? I'm playing by the rules. Others here dont seem to be doing the same

What about the Hagler fight? Marvin was shot. You expect a shot fighter to throw anything hard? My mother could take those shots from Hagler. I dont even count the Hagler fight.

Ray couldve taken the fight in 82. He just didnt have the nerve to take it. There was a lot of things Ray couldve done if he had the nerve. he could have had a proper career instead of just coming in and out whenever he spotted another name fighter ripe for the taking.

He could have defended his WBC title. he didnt. He could have faced Micehal Nunn. He didnt; he faced lalonde instead. People lost respect for him since then on.

Any other questions?

[dempseyfire]

Mr John, I think you need to quit while you're behind.

You're getting well & truly wasted on this thread.

It's funny how you say that people are overrating Leonard, when from reading your posts on here, it would appear that you are overrating Hearns to an even greater degree.

Don't get me wrong, Hearns was fantastic: I love the guy; one of my favourite fighters ever, but the way how you talk about him, as another poster on here has said, you put him up as the 2nd coming of Godzilla.

Why would you denigrate people for daring to suggest that a fighter, aged only 28, with the skills, stamina, chin & nous might last 12 rounds with Tommy Hearns circa 1984?

Lesser fighters than SRL went 12 with the peak 154lb Hearns, so why not SRL?

What about the Hagler fight?

6ft 1in Tommy had all these big muscles at 154, so why were they not bigger at 160, thus making him even more of a super man you claim?

Why was this boxing Godzilla you speak of decimated so easily by Hagler (please don't quote the ludicrious Manny Steward, "somebody massaged Tommy's legs before the fight" line ( ), as he always had a ridiculous excuse for Tommy's defeats)?

Has it not occurred to you that Tommy's opponents at some point in the fight might actually hit him back?

As we all know, Tommy was not blessed with the greatest stamina & durability, so what if the fair punching, fast handed & supremely skilled Leonard had hit him with a good shot & Hearns had gone down?

Unlike Leonard (who you say is overrated), Hearns may not have got back up (or be in any condition to fight on), as we saw a few times in his career.

Despite your mocking & perceived arrogance, you have actually made some decent points & I respect all opinions, but as a previous poster has said on this thread, you cannot say that someone is wrong when talking about a mythcial bout between two evenly matched & great fighter like Tommy & Ray.

How am I getting wasted? I'm playing by the rules. Others here dont seem to be doing the same

What about the Hagler fight? Marvin was shot. You expect a shot fighter to throw anything hard? My mother could take those shots from Hagler. I dont even count the Hagler fight.

Ray couldve taken the fight in 82. He just didnt have the nerve to take it. There was a lot of things Ray couldve done if he had the nerve. he could have had a proper career instead of just coming in and out whenever he spotted another name fighter ripe for the taking.

He could have defended his WBC title. he didnt. He could have faced Micehal Nunn. He didnt; he faced lalonde instead. People lost respect for him since then on.

Any other questions?

Hagler was shot?? Ridiculous. Past his best . .. definitely. But a fight before he'd just had his signature win vs . . Hearns. Looks more vulnerable vs Mugabi but definitely not a shot fighter by any means. The man hadn't lost a fight in over a decade. The fact that Leonard came out of a 3 year retirement and won the fight is an amazing feat.

So Leonard didn't have the 'nerve' to take a Hearns rematch in 1982 Who won by TKO the year prior?

Everyone agrees Leonard cherry-picked his comp post-Hagler. That doesn't erase his incredible career from 1977-82, nor the very impressive Hagler defeat.

[Elton John]

Hagler was shot?? Ridiculous. Past his best . .. definitely. But a fight before he'd just had his signature win vs . . Hearns. Looks more vulnerable vs Mugabi but definitely not a shot fighter by any means. The man hadn't lost a fight in over a decade. The fact that Leonard came out of a 3 year retirement and won the fight is an amazing feat.

So Leonard didn't have the 'nerve' to take a Hearns rematch in 1982 Who won by TKO the year prior?

Everyone agrees Leonard cherry-picked his comp post-Hagler. That doesn't erase his incredible career from 1977-82, nor the very impressive Hagler defeat.

Dempsey, read again. I was referring to Hagler-Leonard 1982/83, not Hearns-Leonard

Ray didnt have the nerve to accept the fight. I could see it when Hagler asked him to fight after Ray interviewd him in the Obel fight. Ray couldnt face marvin and turned away. I could just smell the fear on him

Many were saying Ray could win if they fought at the time. i told them he's got to get in the ring first and prove it.

it's always been the same story; he's got to prove it and let's not forget that fights arent won on paper.

In theory many believed Arguello would beat Pryor and he would have except for the shots he was taking.

as for Hagler being shot, dont take my word for it. the mag that covered the story, KO magazine, discussed both men's futures. They described the legs of Hagler as "dead" and devoid of reflexes which they were. That spells s-h-o-t. Of course, there's always denial but others also have described Hagler as 'more shot than jfk'. I really dont see how it can be argued, especially at the levels he once performed at, its like night and day

Add to that he retired right after and it's hard to see it any other way

and I wouldnt use the argument that Marvin had gone unbeaten in more than a decade. what does that mean, that he's supposedly got another few years under his belt?

Wasn't Leonard in the exact same situation going into the Norris fight? and doesnt everybody descrive Leonard as shot? They dont say he was just a bit past it; they say he's shot.

But that's another story. Still, when you turn it around on leonard fans, that's the excuse they use.

anyhow, I think Hagler has a more legit claim to being shot than Ray Leonard judging them both off their previous performance

[dr_devious]

Leonard had a first class chin. No-one stops him anywhere near his prime at 154, even Tommy Hearns

Neither will endorsements matter. Going spaghetti legs, getting dropped repeatedly-that's evidence

So who stopped Leonard in his prime Elton?

[Elton John]

Leonard had a first class chin. No-one stops him anywhere near his prime at 154, even Tommy Hearns

Neither will endorsements matter. Going spaghetti legs, getting dropped repeatedly-that's evidence

So who stopped Leonard in his prime Elton?

You're talking very limited exposure before quitting the game. It was just Hearns, Finch and who else?

Who else, Dr-Devious?

You're Dr_Devious from Cyberboxingzone arent you? Then you went to Eastside. I know because I saw your name there.

At any rate, two fights, three fights, whatever it is, just isnt what you'd call a demanding schedule. Maybe for you because you being a leonard fan have no choice but to lower the bar for him. Put him under the same conditions as Robinson, Arguello, Hagler, Ali, people like that in continuous action and then you would have a case. But 4 fights or whatever the number is.

he wouldnt get far with Tommy, June 15 1984. Believe me! He barely got past that other fellow half his size. Anyhow i didnt exactly see him calling Tommy out for a rematch after disassembling Duran. Only Hagler had the heart for it because he had the confidence that he could give Tommy a real fight. Leonard didnt.

[elmersalsa]

Now, I imagine someone as good as Hearns. It would probably be the same thing that happened to the great Roberto Duran and Fred Hutchings. Scary knockouts.

- Hearns had a 50% KO ratio in 10 fights at 150 or above by the end of 1984.

Apparently the other 50% weren't so scared that they couldn't go the distance.

Sometimes those statistics don't mean a thing. Hearns had a broken hand with the great Wilfred Benitez and still won. He also had a broken hand with the great Marvin Hagler. His broken hands, especially the right hand, was an issue back in '83. But the way he demolished the great Roberto Duran and Fred Hutchins in '84 I cannot see the great Sugar Ray Leonard passing 5 rounds in my opinion.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Now, I imagine someone as good as Hearns. It would probably be the same thing that happened to the great Roberto Duran and Fred Hutchings. Scary knockouts.

- Hearns had a 50% KO ratio in 10 fights at 150 or above by the end of 1984.

Apparently the other 50% weren't so scared that they couldn't go the distance.

Sometimes those statistics don't mean a thing. Hearns had a broken hand with the great Wilfred Benitez and still won. He also had a broken hand with the great Marvin Hagler. His broken hands, especially the right hand, was an issue back in '83. But the way he demolished the great Roberto Duran and Fred Hutchins in '84 I cannot see the great Sugar Ray Leonard passing 5 rounds in my opinion.

- How did Hearns break his hand when he barely landed a punch on Benitez?

Might help to watch the fight. Benitez was on the run all night and only threw a handful of punches. Benitez lost the fight because his offense was operating at near ZERO and his defense near 100%, terribly out of balance. Hearns never complained of the hand in post fight interviews as I recall, he was more POed Benitez didn't come to fight at all.

Hand was never a factor in the bout. That said, if ever Leonard was going to be KOed near his prime years, 84 was that year. He didn't want the fight because his eye wasn't healthy, but based on his actual physical and mental state, he would've showed up like he did with Marvin using a 24" ring to set a world record in his track shoes and survive to drop the decision.

[elmersalsa]

- How did Hearns break his hand when he barely landed a punch on Benitez?

Might help to watch the fight. Benitez was on the run all night and only threw a handful of punches. Benitez lost the fight because his offense was operating at near ZERO and his defense near 100%, terribly out of balance. Hearns never complained of the hand in post fight interviews as I recall, he was more POed Benitez didn't come to fight at all.

Hand was never a factor in the bout. That said, if ever Leonard was going to be KOed near his prime years, 84 was that year. He didn't want the fight because his eye wasn't healthy, but based on his actual physical and mental state, he would've showed up like he did with Marvin using a 24" ring to set a world record in his track shoes and survive to drop the decision.

I hate to tell you this, but yes, Tommy broke his hand against Benitez too. I am going to put the video from Youtube so that you can see it. Or better yet, go to Youtube my friend.

[Collins2000]

Believe me!

No, I prefer not to believe the ranting of a hater.

[Elton John]

- How did Hearns break his hand when he barely landed a punch on Benitez?

Might help to watch the fight. Benitez was on the run all night and only threw a handful of punches. Benitez lost the fight because his offense was operating at near ZERO and his defense near 100%, terribly out of balance. Hearns never complained of the hand in post fight interviews as I recall, he was more POed Benitez didn't come to fight at all.

Hand was never a factor in the bout. That said, if ever Leonard was going to be KOed near his prime years, 84 was that year. He didn't want the fight because his eye wasn't healthy, but based on his actual physical and mental state, he would've showed up like he did with Marvin using a 24" ring to set a world record in his track shoes and survive to drop the decision.

I hate to tell you this, but yes, Tommy broke his hand against Benitez too. I am going to put the video from Youtube so that you can see it. Or better yet, go to Youtube my friend.

I believe you Elmer. In fact, I read about it in an article

[NazNaci1]

Believe me!

No, I prefer not to believe the ranting of a hater.

Yup, I believe the majority of people in this thread concur, Collins.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I hate to tell you this, but yes, Tommy broke his hand against Benitez too. I am going to put the video from Youtube so that you can see it. Or better yet, go to Youtube my friend.

- Told you already, Tommy's right was never a factor in the fight, him maybe landing 2% of the rights he threw.

Could've been held together with paperclips and glue, or it could've been cast in titanium and welded in place, it didn't figure in the fight.

[Elton John]

Believe me!

No, I prefer not to believe the ranting of a hater.

Yup, I believe the majority of people in this thread concur, Collins.

Collins followed Leonard's career closely because he felt the need to fill the void left in his life by Ali's absence.

Edited by Mod

[Collins2000]

Collins followed Leonard's career closely because he felt the need to fill the void left in his life by Ali's absence.

Edited by Mod - Offensive Comments

[dr_devious]

You're talking very limited exposure before quitting the game. It was just Hearns, Finch and who else?

Who else, Dr-Devious?

You're Dr_Devious from Cyberboxingzone arent you? Then you went to Eastside. I know because I saw your name there.

At any rate, two fights, three fights, whatever it is, just isnt what you'd call a demanding schedule. Maybe for you because you being a leonard fan have no choice but to lower the bar for him. Put him under the same conditions as Robinson, Arguello, Hagler, Ali, people like that in continuous action and then you would have a case. But 4 fights or whatever the number is.

he wouldnt get far with Tommy, June 15 1984. Believe me! He barely got past that other fellow half his size. Anyhow i didnt exactly see him calling Tommy out for a rematch after disassembling Duran. Only Hagler had the heart for it because he had the confidence that he could give Tommy a real fight. Leonard didnt.

I've never even been on Eastside or Cyberboxingzone, let alone posted there.

Nor am I a Leonard fan, I simply recognise his qualities as does anyone who knows a jot about boxing.

[elmersalsa]

I hate to tell you this, but yes, Tommy broke his hand against Benitez too. I am going to put the video from Youtube so that you can see it. Or better yet, go to Youtube my friend.

- Told you already, Tommy's right was never a factor in the fight, him maybe landing 2% of the rights he threw.

Could've been held together with paperclips and glue, or it could've been cast in titanium and welded in place, it didn't figure in the fight.

Tommy broke his right hand vs Benitez...Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJEFba7a ... re=related

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Tommy broke his right hand vs Benitez...Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJEFba7a ... re=related

- What is it about posters on this forum consistently blowing their facts? What part of "dislocated hand" do you not understand in the video?

Since it's impossible to dislocate all the dozen plus joints in the human hand, probably his pinky got dislocated in a misstrike in the 7th when he claims he hurt it. Leonard noted that he never detected the hand being hurt the way Hearns was fighting. Indeed, Tommy can be shown throwing dozens of rights which mostly miss. Best punch of the fight was the right landing flush on Benitez a second before the bell rang.

As I noted, the hand was never a factor since it almost never landed in this fight. Also noted that Tommy had a 50% KO rate at 150 and above by the end of 84. How that translates into him being guaranteed to KO Ray in '84 is a mystery that can be located somewhere in the company of all the facts discarded by truth challenged posters.

[Elton John]

I've never even been on Eastside or Cyberboxingzone, let alone posted there.

Nor am I a Leonard fan, I simply recognise his qualities as does anyone who knows a jot about boxing.

I recognize his qualities too but I dont make a big thing over it. I dont exaggerate about his accomplishments. I dont make claims that he would take Tommy 12 at 154when I know full well he wound't.

If he were the the fighter people say he was he would done better throughout his career. 3 fights with a couple rivals just doesnt inspire me. If you're Collins2000 who is reading this now, its understandable. Ray leonard fills the Ali void. But for me, I never cared for either.

Ali was okay; the man had true charisma with his big mouth and never ducked anyone which tells me he was more of a man than Leonard. But then, so was DeLaHoya

Am I supposed to care that we got another mimic within the sport? Just looking at him I could see Ray Leonard was just a runner making his career picking on relics.

You want to prove yourself? Pick on someone younger than yourself, Like Nunn or Norris. Those are matchups I'd love to see. Leoanrd fans? They'd much rather not

True greatness would have been achieved had he soundly defeated Terry Norris but sadly he fell short.

[Collins2000]

If you're Collins2000 who is reading this now, its understandable. Ray leonard fills the Ali void. But for me, I never cared for either.

You're the 'man' who came on here claiming Terry Norris was the greatest fighter of all time.

[Evander]

Good question,I'll have to think about this one.

[NazNaci1]

I dont make claims that he would take Tommy 12 at 154when I know full well he wound't.

Ray Leonard TKO 14 Thomas Hearns
Ray Loenard D12 Thomas Hearns

[dr_devious]

I recognize his qualities too but I dont make a big thing over it. I dont exaggerate about his accomplishments. I dont make claims that he would take Tommy 12 at 154when I know full well he wound't.

If he were the the fighter people say he was he would done better throughout his career. 3 fights with a couple rivals just doesnt inspire me. If you're Collins2000 who is reading this now, its understandable. Ray leonard fills the Ali void. But for me, I never cared for either.

Ali was okay; the man had true charisma with his big mouth and never ducked anyone which tells me he was more of a man than Leonard. But then, so was DeLaHoya

Am I supposed to care that we got another mimic within the sport? Just looking at him I could see Ray Leonard was just a runner making his career picking on relics.

You want to prove yourself? Pick on someone younger than yourself, Like Nunn or Norris. Those are matchups I'd love to see. Leoanrd fans? They'd much rather not

True greatness would have been achieved had he soundly defeated Terry Norris but sadly he fell short.

Leonard was semi-retired for 9 years before he fought Terry Norris, not exactly at his peak was he?

As for Leonard doing 12 rounds against Hearns, he did it twice in reality so in all probability he would do it in another hypothetical fight.

[Elton John]

I dont make claims that he would take Tommy 12 at 154when I know full well he wound't.

Ray Leonard TKO 14 Thomas Hearns 1981
Ray Loenard D12 Thomas Hearns 1989

Still dont understand the question that was asked do you? I had to fill in the dates for you highlighting your blankety blank blankety

[NazNaci1]

I dont make claims that he would take Tommy 12 at 154when I know full well he wound't.

Ray Leonard TKO 14 Thomas Hearns 1981
Ray Loenard D12 Thomas Hearns 1989

Still dont understand the question that was asked do you? I had to fill in the dates for you highlighting your utter stupidity

Stupidity is your obvious forte, as proven within this thread.

Your arguments are so ridiculus and have so many flaws it's a wonder you post here at all? Do you actually have any understanding about Boxing whatsoever? Any?

Your continued rants, and to be frank, pathetic attempts to insist your right merely open you up to significant ridicule.
Accept you have an opinion that differs to others and leave it at that. However no, you use such terms as 'believe me!' and 'know full well', my friend, you know jack.

[Elton John]

I recognize his qualities too but I dont make a big thing over it. I dont exaggerate about his accomplishments. I dont make claims that he would take Tommy 12 at 154when I know full well he wound't.

If he were the the fighter people say he was he would done better throughout his career. 3 fights with a couple rivals just doesnt inspire me. If you're Collins2000 who is reading this now, its understandable. Ray leonard fills the Ali void. But for me, I never cared for either.

Ali was okay; the man had true charisma with his big mouth and never ducked anyone which tells me he was more of a man than Leonard. But then, so was DeLaHoya

Am I supposed to care that we got another mimic within the sport? Just looking at him I could see Ray Leonard was just a runner making his career picking on relics.

You want to prove yourself? Pick on someone younger than yourself, Like Nunn or Norris. Those are matchups I'd love to see. Leoanrd fans? They'd much rather not

True greatness would have been achieved had he soundly defeated Terry Norris but sadly he fell short.

Leonard was semi-retired for 9 years before he fought Terry Norris, not exactly at his peak was he?

As for Leonard doing 12 rounds against Hearns, he did it twice in reality so in all probability he would do it in another hypothetical fight.

and by "semi retired" do you mean taking fights that appealed to him?

Sounds like just another excuse to hide behind. You dont still confuse him with Ali, that had his title stripped?

No, Ali had a genuine excuse. Leonard? An excuse with an option to come back. But that's beside the point. At no time did I ever see leonard cause Norris problems with his style. I really do think you people are exaggerating. I think it's embarrassing when you say Leonard was shot

He was active comparitvely speaking and if he beat hagler with ONE fight under his belt then how much better would he do with FOUR fights under his belt going into the Norris match? SHould have been a piece of cake. He was heavily favored to win. He was much more experienced. So you know it has to be a matter of styles not meshing.

Put him in with an over the hill plodder and he looks good. That's the formula we saw in the Green fight. With quick footed movers with the added dimension of fast hands, and you will see Leonard struggle to keep up on the scorecards, falling hopelessly behind. Add the extra dimension of power in either hand, and Ray ends up getting hurt in several of the rounds as we saw in rounds 2, 3, 7, 9, 10, 11. Round 12, Terry knew he had it in the bag. He knew there was no way to lose so he listened to his corner and stayed away. Even at that he still won the round. He won EVERY round.

So in my book, that doesnt make Leonard an all time great but more of an all time SAP