Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Rick Farris]

Len Wickwar . . .

Name: Len Wickwar
Nationality: United Kingdom
Hometown: Leicester, Leicestershire, United Kingdom
Born: 1911-03-11
Manager: George Biddles

Wickwar is believed to have had more bouts than any boxer in history (465). At the very least he has more than any boxer in the BoxRec database. With 337 wins, he has more victories than any boxer that can be found in the database as well.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Len Wickwar . . .

Good point, John. More bouts on record than any other boxer. More wins than any boxer in the Boxrec data base.
We also know that Wickwar defeated the great George Dixon, an all-time great and first black world champion.
Dixon will be inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame this coming October.
Sadly, the name Len Wickwar, like so many others, flys below the radar of most boxing historians.
Your post pulls it into focus. Just a few months back, I discovered who Len Wickwar was, when pushing for George Dixon's induction.


-Rick Farris

[Chuck1052]

Rick, Len Wickwar and George Dixon, the bantamweight and featherweight great, didn't fight in the same era, let alone each other. In fact, I think that Wickwar was born after Dixon had passed away.

- Chuck Johnston

[JABARDELLI]

Compliments of Henry Hascup - from New Jersey:

Most Bouts in a Calendar Year (30+ Bouts)

TB…Name…………………………Year

58…Ted “Kid” Lewis……………1911
58…Len Wickwar…………….…1934
53…Joe Grim……………………1902
51…Len Wickwar……….………1935
50…Len Wickwar………….……1932
49…Len Wickwar………….……1933
48…Len Wickwar………….……1936
46…John “Unk” Russell……...…1905
44…Len Wickwar…………….…1930
44…Harry Greb…………………1919
43…Young Erne…………………1902
42…Young Griffo………….……1890
41…Len Wickwar………….……1931
40…Len Wickwar………….……1937
39…Young Stribling……….……1928
39…Young Stribling……….……1924
38…Wildcat Monte………..……1924
37…Battling Levinsky….………1914
37…Harry Greb…………………1917
37…Young Ahearn………..……1910
37…Knockout Brown…….……1908
37…Cuddy DeMarco……………1923
36…“Wild” Bill McDowell……1935
36…Young Griffo………..……1899
36…Wildcat Monte……………1923
36…Wildcat Monte……………1933
35…Freddie Miller……………1935
35…Cuddy DeMarco…………1926
35…Jack White……….………1908
34…Dave Holly………………1902
34…Duke Tramel……….……1925
34…Johnny Fitzpatrick……………1933
34…Wildcat Monte……………1929
33…Jimmy Wilde………..……1913
33…Joey DeJohn………..……1947
33…Freddie Miller……………1928
33…Young Stribling……………1925
33…Young Griffo……………1888
33…Duke Tramel……….……1924
33…John “KO” Eggers……………1913
33…Walter Mohr……….……1916
32…Lamar Clark………..……1958
32…Matty Baldwin……………1903
32…Ralph Brady……….……1919
31-- Maxie Rosenbloom ………1932
31…James “Tut” Jackson……………1922
31…Dutch Brandt……….……1912
31…“Philadelphia” Jack O’Brien……………1902
31…Len Wickwar……………1938
31…Willie Russell………………1945
31…Willie Houck………………1909
31…Tommy Feltz………………1900
31…Charley Johnson……………1896
31…Willard “Big Boy” Hogue……………1939
31…Otto “Young” Wallace……………1919
30…Knockout Brown……………1910
30…Ernie Maurer……….………1932
30…Johnny Lamar………………1922
30…Johnny Ray…………………1913
30…Cuddy DeMarco……………1924
30…Battling Murray……………1916
30…Wildcat Monte………..……1926
30…Wildcat Monte………..……1931

[telboy66]

Another interesting fact among the many Len Wickwar can lay claim to is that in all his 465 fights he never once left the UK,he must be the most traveled British boxer of all time within our islands there can't have been many towns that did'nt get a visit from the most prolific boxer on record

[kikibalt]

This is for Tom & Roger. Two world travelers.


( Rosemary McClure / For The Times )

The Salzgasse in old town Cologne houses many brew pub restaurants, where you can find Kölsch, the city’s best-known brew.


Brew pubs in Germany are halls of fame
From Cologne to Munich to Bamberg to Bremen, we seek out the best beers in the country during Oktoberfest.

By Rosemary McClure, Reporting from Munich, Germany

The last thing I expected as I slid my fingers through the handle of my first tankard of beer in Munich was 10,000 voices erupting in a ragged rendition of . . . "Hang On Sloopy." There was no mistaking it, even when sung with a German accent.

I was in a cavernous beer tent at Oktoberfest, Munich's salute to its favorite liquid, and like everyone around me, I was determined to squeeze the last drop of fun from the world's biggest kegfest.

But "Hang On Sloopy"? Why not "Danke Schoen"? Why not "Beer Barrel Polka"?

That wasn't the half of it, though. They followed "Sloopy" with "New York, New York" and then did a foot-stomping, hand-clapping rendition of "We Will Rock You." With each English-language pop song, I felt more at home. Of course, drinking all that beer didn't hurt.

I had come here to raise a toast to Germany's beer halls, national treasures that don't get nearly the publicity (maybe "buzz" is the more appropriate word) they deserve. Scenic wonders are crammed into every corner of Western Europe's most populous nation: snowcapped Bavarian Alps, wind-swept North Sea islands, lush Black Forest and castle-dotted Rhine. But if you haven't explored the country's cavernous beer halls, you haven't lived.

My mission was clear: Chart a trail that others could follow; develop a beer hall crawl through the heart of Germany.

Like most travelers, I had limited time and funds -- only a week to see and savor the nation's finest; far too little time to devote to a country that considers beer and bread the world's oldest sources of nourishment. So I knocked on the door of the German tourist board: Could it help me identify the best of the best? With its help and input from Deutschland distillers, I made a list of cities with great beer traditions: Cologne, Munich, Bamberg and Bremen. (If your favorite didn't make the cut, there's always next time.)

Off to Cologne

Germany is awash in beer. As tourist posters phrase it: "Want a beer? We can give you 5,000." The country has 1,300 breweries. Exports account for some of the 2.5 billion gallons produced annually, but Germans drink their fair share -- an average of 37 gallons per person. In some areas, that number doubles. "People call us the town of the pregnant men because there are so many big bellies," said a guide in Bamberg, where the average is 76 gallons per person.

As luck would have it, I arrived in Germany during Oktoberfest, the biggest and boldest of Germany's many beer festivals. Don't let the name Oktoberfest fool you: It actually begins in mid-September and ends early in October; this year it's Sept. 19 to Oct. 4.

Munich wasn't my first stop on this beer hall crawl. I flew from L.A. to Frankfurt, where I met a friend, Jorden Nye. We hopped a train and buzzed one hour northwest to the ancient Roman city of Cologne, one of Germany's oldest towns.

Cologne (Köln, in German) has recently become a cosmopolitan superstar known for its art, culture and excellent museums.

We had time for only a quick stroll, but impressive sights flashed by: Cologne Cathedral, one of the most famous Gothic structures in Germany; a bevy of Romanesque churches; colorful houses on Fischmarkt; intriguing clusters of museums and art galleries. Unfortunately, other culture had to take a back seat on this trip; Jorden and I were overdue at the local pubs, where we planned to toast our trip with Kölsch, Cologne's best-known brew.

We began at Malzmühle (6 Heumarkt), where waiters in long aprons dashed back and forth serving Kölsch to patrons at sturdy wooden tables. As soon as one glass emptied, a full one took its place. The light-yellow Kölsch is brewed with lots of hops and served at room temperature in Stangen, straight, narrow glasses that hold only about 6 ounces of beer. Along with the brew, patrons consumed plates of hearty German foods, such as boiled pork with sauerkraut and mashed potatoes, and Heaven-and-Earth, which is fried blood pudding with mashed potatoes and apples. The dishes cost about $10 each.

Kölsch has little carbonic acid and just 5% alcoholic content. "You can drink it like water, but it does the trick," said Andre Fischer, a sixth-generation Cologner who raised a few glasses with us. The beer was fruity and refreshing, qualities that make it beloved by millions and disliked by just as many.

I liked the light taste and wanted to try more varieties of it, so we moved on, visiting a couple of brew pubs in the city's Old Town and then finishing our evening near the cathedral at Früh (12 Am Hof), Cologne's most famous brew pub. The brewery, more than 100 years old, draws locals and tourists alike. The beer is light and easy to drink, and this time we toasted Kölsch and Früh.

The next morning I told myself I didn't have a headache as we walked to the train station, pulling our bags behind us, then dozed off quickly as the fast, quietly efficient TGV train barreled 4 1/2 hours southeast to Munich, Bavaria's capital.

As we drew closer, the car became noisier. Teenage drinkers (16-year-olds can legally drink in Germany) were guzzling beer and raising a ruckus. I wondered aloud whether I'd hate the rowdiness of Oktoberfest. The woman seated next to me surprised me by answering. Edith Fuess, a doctor in Ludwigshafen, Germany, said I'd probably like the friendliness of the event despite the uproar.

"The German people are not so friendly at first," she said. "But with one beer, they are very friendly."

Bustling Munich

When Jorden and I emerged from the train, we found a city bursting at the seams; we'd been lucky to find accommodations. Munich, one of Germany's largest cities, also is one of its major tourist attractions, full of imposing buildings and interesting shops and museums, so we meandered through the city center.

But we managed to home in on our subject. We dropped in for some information at the Bier und Oktoberfestmuseum, which traces 5,000 years of beer history and also has tasting samples (2 Sterneckerstrasse, http://www.bier-und-oktoberfestmuseum.de).

Among the things we learned: German beer is still brewed as the law has stipulated since 1516 -- from malt, water, hops, yeast and nothing else.

"Its purity is the reason why it's such an outstanding product," said Lukas Bulka, the museum director. "No preservatives, no artificial color or flavors."

The next stop I'd planned was Hofbräuhaus (9 Platzl), Munich's world-famous beer hall, but like the city, the brewery was overflowing. Jorden took a pass, but I squeezed in. Hofbräuhaus, established as a court brewery in the 16th century, holds about 2,300 revelers inside and seats more in its beer garden. Tourists drink, listen to oompah bands and watch leg-slapping Bavarian dances. That day, the din of the crowd was nearly deafening, and I finally gave up when I couldn't order a beer.

I hoped we'd do better at Oktoberfest. Free tickets are available for the festival in advance ( http://www.oktoberfest.de/en/ navitem/Tents/), but getting them can be complicated. We had decided to take our chances and wait in line to get in, a bad idea on weekends or evenings, when lines are long. But we arrived on a weekday afternoon and in less than an hour, we were seated in the Schottenhamel tent, one of 14 huge temporary beer halls that house celebrants during the event. Costumed servers appeared as soon as we sat down, and 1-liter glass mugs quickly materialized full of Spatenbräu beer, a special copper-colored Oktoberfest variety that has a fresh taste and a malty flavor.

Many partyers wore traditional Bavarian clothing, with men sporting lederhosen (leather breeches with suspenders) and women clad in dirndl; all were wearing smiles. Before long, we were singing in unison with the people at the tables around us. We swayed in time to the music, mugs in hand and toasts on our lips.

As the hour grew later and later, we tore ourselves away, hating to leave but recognizing that duty called.

Symphony in B

By the next afternoon we were on a train headed north to lovely Bamberg, a UNESCO World Heritage city built on seven hills, much like ancient Rome. The hills provide superb views of a beautifully preserved Old Town crisscrossed by branches of the Regnitz River. Some consider the city's Domplatz to be one of Europe's loveliest squares, and many of the city's buildings, including the Cathedral of St. Peter and St. George, are magnificent.
But Bamberg has other claims to fame. It has the highest concentration of breweries in the world and calls itself the true home of beer, a place that is "a symphony in B -- Baroque, bread, bridges and beer." Our work was cut out for us.

We made our first stop at Klosterbräu (3 Obere Mühlbrücke), founded in 1533 and the city's oldest brew pub. I felt as though I were stepping back into history at this atmospheric place, which had a plethora of fine beers on tap.

There were many good brew pubs in this town of 70,000 but one stood out: Schlenkerla, known for its smokebeer, a Bamberg specialty (6 Dominikanerstrasse, http://www.smokebeer.com). The black, dry beer tastes of smoked ham.

Matthias Trum, whose family has operated the brewery for six generations, put his business into perspective: "We've been through the Thirty Years' War, the Great Depression, two world wars, and the brewery is still here," he said. "So when people say to me, 'How do you change things?' I say, 'I don't.' "

Last stop: Bremen

Bidding auf Wiedersehen to Bamberg, we boarded a train that took us four hours northwest to Bremen, a maritime city dominated by an interesting Old Town, cathedral and town hall. The special draw for us was Beck's, Germany's largest brewery.

The classic German lager, responsible for 30% of all German beer exports, is manufactured along the banks of the Weser River. We toured the plant, where we tasted the original Beck's (crisp and smooth) and some of the more unusual brews made for the domestic market: beer mixed with lemonade, green tea, Sprite and Fanta Orange.

We learned, among other things, that beer is the oldest beverage produced by man.

"We think it happened something like this," a guide said. "A woman forgot to take fresh bread back into her house, it rained and fermentation began."

Yes, an oversimplification. But I'll drink to her anyway. Just not with a beer mixed with Fanta Orange.


(Dan Neil / Los Angeles Times)

The Lowenbrau tent, with its venerable lion emblem, attracts fans. The beer is one of the oldest brands in Bavaria, dating to the 14th century.


[email protected]

[dagosd2000]

This is for Tom & Roger. Two world travelers.


( Rosemary McClure / For The Times )

The Salzgasse in old town Cologne houses many brew pub restaurants, where you can find Kölsch, the city’s best-known brew.


Brew pubs in Germany are halls of fame
From Cologne to Munich to Bamberg to Bremen, we seek out the best beers in the country during Oktoberfest.

By Rosemary McClure, Reporting from Munich, Germany

The last thing I expected as I slid my fingers through the handle of my first tankard of beer in Munich was 10,000 voices erupting in a ragged rendition of . . . "Hang On Sloopy." There was no mistaking it, even when sung with a German accent.

I was in a cavernous beer tent at Oktoberfest, Munich's salute to its favorite liquid, and like everyone around me, I was determined to squeeze the last drop of fun from the world's biggest kegfest.

But "Hang On Sloopy"? Why not "Danke Schoen"? Why not "Beer Barrel Polka"?

That wasn't the half of it, though. They followed "Sloopy" with "New York, New York" and then did a foot-stomping, hand-clapping rendition of "We Will Rock You." With each English-language pop song, I felt more at home. Of course, drinking all that beer didn't hurt.

I had come here to raise a toast to Germany's beer halls, national treasures that don't get nearly the publicity (maybe "buzz" is the more appropriate word) they deserve. Scenic wonders are crammed into every corner of Western Europe's most populous nation: snowcapped Bavarian Alps, wind-swept North Sea islands, lush Black Forest and castle-dotted Rhine. But if you haven't explored the country's cavernous beer halls, you haven't lived.

My mission was clear: Chart a trail that others could follow; develop a beer hall crawl through the heart of Germany.

Like most travelers, I had limited time and funds -- only a week to see and savor the nation's finest; far too little time to devote to a country that considers beer and bread the world's oldest sources of nourishment. So I knocked on the door of the German tourist board: Could it help me identify the best of the best? With its help and input from Deutschland distillers, I made a list of cities with great beer traditions: Cologne, Munich, Bamberg and Bremen. (If your favorite didn't make the cut, there's always next time.)

Off to Cologne

Germany is awash in beer. As tourist posters phrase it: "Want a beer? We can give you 5,000." The country has 1,300 breweries. Exports account for some of the 2.5 billion gallons produced annually, but Germans drink their fair share -- an average of 37 gallons per person. In some areas, that number doubles. "People call us the town of the pregnant men because there are so many big bellies," said a guide in Bamberg, where the average is 76 gallons per person.

As luck would have it, I arrived in Germany during Oktoberfest, the biggest and boldest of Germany's many beer festivals. Don't let the name Oktoberfest fool you: It actually begins in mid-September and ends early in October; this year it's Sept. 19 to Oct. 4.

Munich wasn't my first stop on this beer hall crawl. I flew from L.A. to Frankfurt, where I met a friend, Jorden Nye. We hopped a train and buzzed one hour northwest to the ancient Roman city of Cologne, one of Germany's oldest towns.

Cologne (Köln, in German) has recently become a cosmopolitan superstar known for its art, culture and excellent museums.

We had time for only a quick stroll, but impressive sights flashed by: Cologne Cathedral, one of the most famous Gothic structures in Germany; a bevy of Romanesque churches; colorful houses on Fischmarkt; intriguing clusters of museums and art galleries. Unfortunately, other culture had to take a back seat on this trip; Jorden and I were overdue at the local pubs, where we planned to toast our trip with Kölsch, Cologne's best-known brew.

We began at Malzmühle (6 Heumarkt), where waiters in long aprons dashed back and forth serving Kölsch to patrons at sturdy wooden tables. As soon as one glass emptied, a full one took its place. The light-yellow Kölsch is brewed with lots of hops and served at room temperature in Stangen, straight, narrow glasses that hold only about 6 ounces of beer. Along with the brew, patrons consumed plates of hearty German foods, such as boiled pork with sauerkraut and mashed potatoes, and Heaven-and-Earth, which is fried blood pudding with mashed potatoes and apples. The dishes cost about $10 each.

Kölsch has little carbonic acid and just 5% alcoholic content. "You can drink it like water, but it does the trick," said Andre Fischer, a sixth-generation Cologner who raised a few glasses with us. The beer was fruity and refreshing, qualities that make it beloved by millions and disliked by just as many.

I liked the light taste and wanted to try more varieties of it, so we moved on, visiting a couple of brew pubs in the city's Old Town and then finishing our evening near the cathedral at Früh (12 Am Hof), Cologne's most famous brew pub. The brewery, more than 100 years old, draws locals and tourists alike. The beer is light and easy to drink, and this time we toasted Kölsch and Früh.

The next morning I told myself I didn't have a headache as we walked to the train station, pulling our bags behind us, then dozed off quickly as the fast, quietly efficient TGV train barreled 4 1/2 hours southeast to Munich, Bavaria's capital.

As we drew closer, the car became noisier. Teenage drinkers (16-year-olds can legally drink in Germany) were guzzling beer and raising a ruckus. I wondered aloud whether I'd hate the rowdiness of Oktoberfest. The woman seated next to me surprised me by answering. Edith Fuess, a doctor in Ludwigshafen, Germany, said I'd probably like the friendliness of the event despite the uproar.

"The German people are not so friendly at first," she said. "But with one beer, they are very friendly."

Bustling Munich

When Jorden and I emerged from the train, we found a city bursting at the seams; we'd been lucky to find accommodations. Munich, one of Germany's largest cities, also is one of its major tourist attractions, full of imposing buildings and interesting shops and museums, so we meandered through the city center.

But we managed to home in on our subject. We dropped in for some information at the Bier und Oktoberfestmuseum, which traces 5,000 years of beer history and also has tasting samples (2 Sterneckerstrasse, http://www.bier-und-oktoberfestmuseum.de).

Among the things we learned: German beer is still brewed as the law has stipulated since 1516 -- from malt, water, hops, yeast and nothing else.

"Its purity is the reason why it's such an outstanding product," said Lukas Bulka, the museum director. "No preservatives, no artificial color or flavors."

The next stop I'd planned was Hofbräuhaus (9 Platzl), Munich's world-famous beer hall, but like the city, the brewery was overflowing. Jorden took a pass, but I squeezed in. Hofbräuhaus, established as a court brewery in the 16th century, holds about 2,300 revelers inside and seats more in its beer garden. Tourists drink, listen to oompah bands and watch leg-slapping Bavarian dances. That day, the din of the crowd was nearly deafening, and I finally gave up when I couldn't order a beer.

I hoped we'd do better at Oktoberfest. Free tickets are available for the festival in advance ( http://www.oktoberfest.de/en/ navitem/Tents/), but getting them can be complicated. We had decided to take our chances and wait in line to get in, a bad idea on weekends or evenings, when lines are long. But we arrived on a weekday afternoon and in less than an hour, we were seated in the Schottenhamel tent, one of 14 huge temporary beer halls that house celebrants during the event. Costumed servers appeared as soon as we sat down, and 1-liter glass mugs quickly materialized full of Spatenbräu beer, a special copper-colored Oktoberfest variety that has a fresh taste and a malty flavor.

Many partyers wore traditional Bavarian clothing, with men sporting lederhosen (leather breeches with suspenders) and women clad in dirndl; all were wearing smiles. Before long, we were singing in unison with the people at the tables around us. We swayed in time to the music, mugs in hand and toasts on our lips.

As the hour grew later and later, we tore ourselves away, hating to leave but recognizing that duty called.

Symphony in B

By the next afternoon we were on a train headed north to lovely Bamberg, a UNESCO World Heritage city built on seven hills, much like ancient Rome. The hills provide superb views of a beautifully preserved Old Town crisscrossed by branches of the Regnitz River. Some consider the city's Domplatz to be one of Europe's loveliest squares, and many of the city's buildings, including the Cathedral of St. Peter and St. George, are magnificent.
But Bamberg has other claims to fame. It has the highest concentration of breweries in the world and calls itself the true home of beer, a place that is "a symphony in B -- Baroque, bread, bridges and beer." Our work was cut out for us.

We made our first stop at Klosterbräu (3 Obere Mühlbrücke), founded in 1533 and the city's oldest brew pub. I felt as though I were stepping back into history at this atmospheric place, which had a plethora of fine beers on tap.

There were many good brew pubs in this town of 70,000 but one stood out: Schlenkerla, known for its smokebeer, a Bamberg specialty (6 Dominikanerstrasse, http://www.smokebeer.com). The black, dry beer tastes of smoked ham.

Matthias Trum, whose family has operated the brewery for six generations, put his business into perspective: "We've been through the Thirty Years' War, the Great Depression, two world wars, and the brewery is still here," he said. "So when people say to me, 'How do you change things?' I say, 'I don't.' "

Last stop: Bremen

Bidding auf Wiedersehen to Bamberg, we boarded a train that took us four hours northwest to Bremen, a maritime city dominated by an interesting Old Town, cathedral and town hall. The special draw for us was Beck's, Germany's largest brewery.

The classic German lager, responsible for 30% of all German beer exports, is manufactured along the banks of the Weser River. We toured the plant, where we tasted the original Beck's (crisp and smooth) and some of the more unusual brews made for the domestic market: beer mixed with lemonade, green tea, Sprite and Fanta Orange.

We learned, among other things, that beer is the oldest beverage produced by man.

"We think it happened something like this," a guide said. "A woman forgot to take fresh bread back into her house, it rained and fermentation began."

Yes, an oversimplification. But I'll drink to her anyway. Just not with a beer mixed with Fanta Orange.


(Dan Neil / Los Angeles Times)

The Lowenbrau tent, with its venerable lion emblem, attracts fans. The beer is one of the oldest brands in Bavaria, dating to the 14th century.


[email protected]

Thanks Frank for the story on German beer. It's amazing how much the Germans take pride with their beer. All others pale in comparision. Don't even bring up English ales to them. I have to admit that my taste puts the German brews ahead of all the others. The only German beers that I don't care for are the ones made with lemonade.

[raylawpc]

raylawpc wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
This was sent sent to me by my friend and fellow boxing historian, Tony Triem.
Tony wrote this awhile back, and like myself is a Yank.
Bennie, Rob, tellboy, Wildhawke, Brits, historians, regulars who would like to comment, please do.

-Rick Farris
_________________________________________________________________


THE TEN BEST BRITISH FIGHTERS EVER

After all, the British invented modern-day boxing, as we know it, in 1867 when John Graham Chambers and his friend, Sir John Sholto Douglas, the eighth Marquis of Queensbury, introduced rules to the game that changed it dramatically. They outlawed wrestling, required fighters to wear gloves, provided for a one-minute rest between rounds and gave a fighter 10 seconds to rise after getting floored.

In the ensuing 140 years, dozens of great fighters have emerged from the birthplace of the fight game, and what follows is one man's listing of the 10 best. It's never easy deciding who gets left off of a list like this, but not everybody can make the cut. If they could there would be nothing to fight about. These are the best of the best.

Jimmy Wilde
131-3-2 (99), 13 no-decisions
World Flyweight Champion 1916-'23

It's hard for fans of any era to properly appreciate a man who fought several generations before their own, but Wilde's greatness shouldn't be overlooked just because it occurred 90 years ago. A fighter's historical value is measured by how well he did against the best fighters of his era and in this regard Wilde has few peers in all of boxing, never mind British boxing.

Look at the record again: three losses in 149 fights, with 99 knockouts. Though Wilde rarely weighed more than 100 pounds he was among the best punchers ever. The Ring magazine placed him third among history's great punchers, behind only Joe Louis and Sam Langford, two icons of the sport. And his mammoth winning streaks are rivaled only by those compiled by Sugar Ray Robinson and Willie Pep. This is where he belongs and it's not close.

Freddy Welsh
73-5-7 (32), 82 decisions
World Lightweight Champion 1914-'17

It's unfortunate that when Welsh is remembered at all, it's as the man from whom the great Benny Leonard won the lightweight title in 1917. And it's true, there are worse ways to be remembered. But Welsh was a hell of a lightweight in his own right and his record against the best 135-pounders of the era proves it.

As his record suggests, Welsh was not the puncher Wilde was - few were. And stylistically he was at the other end of the spectrum, a quick-footed, fleet-fisted fighter who relied on his defense the way Wilde relied on his right hand. But because he wasn't a puncher doesn't mean Welsh wasn't great. He was a superb boxer in an age when the ranks were full of tough, angry little guys who could fight. Welsh was among the best.

Jim Driscoll
52-3-6 (35), 8 no-decisions
British Featherweight Champion 1907-'13

Like Welsh, Driscoll was more defensive than offensive and kept his opponents off-balance with superior footwork, speed, and science. He was a better puncher than was Welsh and to be frank you could swap their places in this ranking without too much argument. The primary difference is Driscoll lost to Welsh via disqualification in Cardiff in 1910, and never won a world title - officially.

Driscoll did everything to champion Abe Attell in their title fight in 1909 in New York that one fighter could do to another without knocking him out, and the so-called "newspaper decision" went his way unanimously. But this was the no-decision era, in which any fight that didn't end in knockout was a no-decision. Attell never gave him a rematch, and you couldn't blame him.

Lennox Lewis
41-2 (32)
Heavyweight Champion 1993-'94, 1997-'2001, 2001-'03

There are those who would put Lewis at the top of this list, but only as a result of a favorable bias toward heavyweights or modern fighters or both. Each of the fighters who rate higher than Lewis has more wins than he has total fights and the breadth of one's body of work, not just its visibility, must weigh heavily in these discussions.

That said, Lewis was a wonderful, mostly dominant heavyweight champion whose greatest strength was his versatility. When facing a big puncher, such as David Tua, he could move and box superbly. When confronted with a weaker man, say Andrew Golota or Frans Botha, he was no less destructive than was George Foreman or Joe Louis. And if this were a ranking of the greatest British heavyweights, there is little doubt he'd be at the top. As it is, there's no shame in coming in fourth.

Bob Fitzsimmons
40-11 (32) 11 no-decisions, 1 no-contest
World Middleweight Champion 1891-'97
World Heavyweight Champion 1897-'99
World Light Heavyweight Champion 1903-'05

You could argue Fitzsimmons' inclusion here, as he fought entirely in Australia and the United States and never in Great Britain. Nevertheless, "Ruby Robert" was born in Helston, Cornwall , England , and that qualifies him in this book. You could argue too that his position as boxing's first triple-crown champion is overrated; the light heavyweight crown, which he won in 1903 by beating George Gardner, was mostly a publicity stunt by Gardner 's manager.

Still, Fitzsimmons was outweighed by 30 pounds when he knocked out Jim Corbett to win the heavyweight title, and was 40 years old when he stopped Gardner . His win over Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil) to win the middleweight crown in 1891 was huge, and, along with James J. Jeffries, who relieved him of the heavyweight belt, Fitzsimmons was one of the dominant fighters of his time.

Ted "Kid" Lewis
173-30-14 (71), 65 no-decisions
World Welterweight Champion 1915-'16, 1917-'19

Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali will be forever linked. That's how it is with Lewis and Jack Britton, who fought one another no less than 20 times between 1915 and 1921, many times with the world welterweight title on the line. They passed it back and forth like it was the plague but Britton wasn't the only great fighter with whom Lewis tangled. He fought all the best fighters at or around his weight including Benny Leonard (Lewis won the "newspaper" decision), and Maxie Rosenbloom (Lewis lost on a foul).

Lewis didn't stop there. He fought solid middleweights and light heavies too, most notably the brilliant Frenchman Georges Carpentier, who stopped Lewis in the first round. For Lewis, even heavyweights, such as South Africa 's Alec Storbeck, whom Lewis stopped in a round, were on the menu. And in addition to holding the welterweight world title, Lewis was, at varying times, the British welterweight champion, the British and European welterweight champion, and the British middleweight champion.

Ken Buchanan 61-8 (27) Lightweight Champion 1970-'72

Like Freddie Welsh before him, Buchanan had the great misfortune of competing in the same era with a physical phenomenon to whom he would lose the title. Welsh had Benny Leonard, Buchanan had Roberto Duran, who stopped Buchanan under dubious circumstances in their title match in New York in 1972. Much has been made in the ensuing years about how Duran never gave Buchanan a rematch, but no less a source than Hall of Fame manager and trainer Gil Clancy, who worked for Buchanan, owed it to lack of fan interest rather than any reluctance on Duran's part.

Either way, Buchanan was a fine boxer-puncher who might have enjoyed a long reign indeed had it not been for Duran's wild tenacity and charisma. As it was, he beat a fine fighter in Ismael Laguna for the title, and defended against Ruben Navarro and then Laguna again before running into Duran. He also beat the great Carlos Ortiz (albeit in the 36-year-old Ortiz' final fight), and future champion Jim Watt.

Randy Turpin 66-8-1 (45) World Middleweight Champion 1951

Turpin is best remembered for his shocking win over middleweight champion Sugar Ray Robinson in London in 1951and it's true that a good deal of it was owed to Robinson's partying and philandering in the days leading up to what he thought would be an easy defense. But there was no such alibi for the rematch, which took place two months later in New York , and it was no easy right for Robinson then, either. Turpin, with his awkward strength and heavy jab, troubled Robinson the way Ken Norton troubled Muhammad Ali and Robinson had to work mightily to regain the title from Turpin on a 10-round knockout.

Either way, Turpin was more than the sum of his bouts with Robinson. He'd won the British and European middleweight titles before facing Robinson, and afterward won the British Empire middleweight title, too. Losses to Carl "Bobo" Olson and Tiberio Mitri appeared to finish him as a top fighter by the end of 1954, but the next year he claimed the British light heavyweight title with a knockout of Alex Buton.

Naseem Hamed 36-1 (31) Featherweight Champion 1997-2001

Many fans scoff now at Hamed, so one-sided and humbling was his points loss to the great Marco Antonio Barrera in Las Vegas in 2001. It ruined him as a fighter and performer but it doesn't erase what he got done before that night; namely, whipping good solid fighters such as Tom Johnson, Manuel Medina, Wayne McCullough, Kevin Kelley, Wilfredo Vazquez and Paul Ingle. And losing to Barrera, who surely will be viewed by history as one of the great featherweights, is no embarrassment.

Hamed's highly unorthodox style and outrageous personality made him a target of the purists, but he made up for technical failings and hubris with astonishing athleticism and punching power. It took a fighter the caliber of Barrera to silence him and if not for the copious amounts of money his popularity and drawing power had made for him up to that point, he'd likely have returned and made some noise still at 125 pounds.

Owen Moran 67-16-5 (33), 19 no-decisions

Moran never officially won a world title, but it's hard to think of another guy who came so close so many times against top-tier fighters. Moran twice fought Jim Driscoll, once to a draw (in Driscoll's last fight) and another to a no-decision. He fought the great old champion Able Attell five times and Battling Nelson too, and Ad Wolgast and Packey McFarland, all the biggest names among the lighter guys in the early 1900s.

Moran had a hard time winning against the very top guys and that's reflected in his record and in his position during the time as perennial contender. But no one had an easy time of it against him. He was as relentless and scrappy as any fighter you could name that came before or after him and belongs among the great prizefighters of England .

Its a great list . . . as long as its not in any particular order.

All I see is names, not numbers. He listed ten he thought were the best, but I see no particular order or reason for such.

-Rick

Rick and Tom --- This list is a ranking of the Ten Greatest Fighters from the British Empire. Tony Triem reveals that it was so intended when he writes within the Lennox Lewis coverage -- "And if this were a ranking of the greatest British heavyweights, there is little doubt he'd be at the top. As it is, there's no shame in coming in fourth."

Trying to come up with any list is a daunting task and the writer who does so is saying ---"I'm not afraid to lay it on the line. How about you, reader?"

However, in examining Tony Triem's challenging list and seeing what might constitute some omissions, one has to ask --- Where does he place Jem Mace --- Peter Jackson --- Len Wickwar --- Joe Calzahge ---. Food for thought gents!

John A. Bardelli

Then I disagree with his order. Fitz and Ken Buchanan should be higher. I have no problem with the guys on the list, though. Welch is too high - switch him with Buchanan. I agree with Jimmy Wilde at No. 1.

[raylawpc]

This is for Tom & Roger. Two world travelers.


( Rosemary McClure / For The Times )

The Salzgasse in old town Cologne houses many brew pub restaurants, where you can find Kölsch, the city’s best-known brew.


Brew pubs in Germany are halls of fame
From Cologne to Munich to Bamberg to Bremen, we seek out the best beers in the country during Oktoberfest.

By Rosemary McClure, Reporting from Munich, Germany

The last thing I expected as I slid my fingers through the handle of my first tankard of beer in Munich was 10,000 voices erupting in a ragged rendition of . . . "Hang On Sloopy." There was no mistaking it, even when sung with a German accent.

I was in a cavernous beer tent at Oktoberfest, Munich's salute to its favorite liquid, and like everyone around me, I was determined to squeeze the last drop of fun from the world's biggest kegfest.

But "Hang On Sloopy"? Why not "Danke Schoen"? Why not "Beer Barrel Polka"?

That wasn't the half of it, though. They followed "Sloopy" with "New York, New York" and then did a foot-stomping, hand-clapping rendition of "We Will Rock You." With each English-language pop song, I felt more at home. Of course, drinking all that beer didn't hurt.

I had come here to raise a toast to Germany's beer halls, national treasures that don't get nearly the publicity (maybe "buzz" is the more appropriate word) they deserve. Scenic wonders are crammed into every corner of Western Europe's most populous nation: snowcapped Bavarian Alps, wind-swept North Sea islands, lush Black Forest and castle-dotted Rhine. But if you haven't explored the country's cavernous beer halls, you haven't lived.

My mission was clear: Chart a trail that others could follow; develop a beer hall crawl through the heart of Germany.

Like most travelers, I had limited time and funds -- only a week to see and savor the nation's finest; far too little time to devote to a country that considers beer and bread the world's oldest sources of nourishment. So I knocked on the door of the German tourist board: Could it help me identify the best of the best? With its help and input from Deutschland distillers, I made a list of cities with great beer traditions: Cologne, Munich, Bamberg and Bremen. (If your favorite didn't make the cut, there's always next time.)

Off to Cologne

Germany is awash in beer. As tourist posters phrase it: "Want a beer? We can give you 5,000." The country has 1,300 breweries. Exports account for some of the 2.5 billion gallons produced annually, but Germans drink their fair share -- an average of 37 gallons per person. In some areas, that number doubles. "People call us the town of the pregnant men because there are so many big bellies," said a guide in Bamberg, where the average is 76 gallons per person.

As luck would have it, I arrived in Germany during Oktoberfest, the biggest and boldest of Germany's many beer festivals. Don't let the name Oktoberfest fool you: It actually begins in mid-September and ends early in October; this year it's Sept. 19 to Oct. 4.

Munich wasn't my first stop on this beer hall crawl. I flew from L.A. to Frankfurt, where I met a friend, Jorden Nye. We hopped a train and buzzed one hour northwest to the ancient Roman city of Cologne, one of Germany's oldest towns.

Cologne (Köln, in German) has recently become a cosmopolitan superstar known for its art, culture and excellent museums.

We had time for only a quick stroll, but impressive sights flashed by: Cologne Cathedral, one of the most famous Gothic structures in Germany; a bevy of Romanesque churches; colorful houses on Fischmarkt; intriguing clusters of museums and art galleries. Unfortunately, other culture had to take a back seat on this trip; Jorden and I were overdue at the local pubs, where we planned to toast our trip with Kölsch, Cologne's best-known brew.

We began at Malzmühle (6 Heumarkt), where waiters in long aprons dashed back and forth serving Kölsch to patrons at sturdy wooden tables. As soon as one glass emptied, a full one took its place. The light-yellow Kölsch is brewed with lots of hops and served at room temperature in Stangen, straight, narrow glasses that hold only about 6 ounces of beer. Along with the brew, patrons consumed plates of hearty German foods, such as boiled pork with sauerkraut and mashed potatoes, and Heaven-and-Earth, which is fried blood pudding with mashed potatoes and apples. The dishes cost about $10 each.

Kölsch has little carbonic acid and just 5% alcoholic content. "You can drink it like water, but it does the trick," said Andre Fischer, a sixth-generation Cologner who raised a few glasses with us. The beer was fruity and refreshing, qualities that make it beloved by millions and disliked by just as many.

I liked the light taste and wanted to try more varieties of it, so we moved on, visiting a couple of brew pubs in the city's Old Town and then finishing our evening near the cathedral at Früh (12 Am Hof), Cologne's most famous brew pub. The brewery, more than 100 years old, draws locals and tourists alike. The beer is light and easy to drink, and this time we toasted Kölsch and Früh.

The next morning I told myself I didn't have a headache as we walked to the train station, pulling our bags behind us, then dozed off quickly as the fast, quietly efficient TGV train barreled 4 1/2 hours southeast to Munich, Bavaria's capital.

As we drew closer, the car became noisier. Teenage drinkers (16-year-olds can legally drink in Germany) were guzzling beer and raising a ruckus. I wondered aloud whether I'd hate the rowdiness of Oktoberfest. The woman seated next to me surprised me by answering. Edith Fuess, a doctor in Ludwigshafen, Germany, said I'd probably like the friendliness of the event despite the uproar.

"The German people are not so friendly at first," she said. "But with one beer, they are very friendly."

Bustling Munich

When Jorden and I emerged from the train, we found a city bursting at the seams; we'd been lucky to find accommodations. Munich, one of Germany's largest cities, also is one of its major tourist attractions, full of imposing buildings and interesting shops and museums, so we meandered through the city center.

But we managed to home in on our subject. We dropped in for some information at the Bier und Oktoberfestmuseum, which traces 5,000 years of beer history and also has tasting samples (2 Sterneckerstrasse, http://www.bier-und-oktoberfestmuseum.de).

Among the things we learned: German beer is still brewed as the law has stipulated since 1516 -- from malt, water, hops, yeast and nothing else.

"Its purity is the reason why it's such an outstanding product," said Lukas Bulka, the museum director. "No preservatives, no artificial color or flavors."

The next stop I'd planned was Hofbräuhaus (9 Platzl), Munich's world-famous beer hall, but like the city, the brewery was overflowing. Jorden took a pass, but I squeezed in. Hofbräuhaus, established as a court brewery in the 16th century, holds about 2,300 revelers inside and seats more in its beer garden. Tourists drink, listen to oompah bands and watch leg-slapping Bavarian dances. That day, the din of the crowd was nearly deafening, and I finally gave up when I couldn't order a beer.

I hoped we'd do better at Oktoberfest. Free tickets are available for the festival in advance ( http://www.oktoberfest.de/en/ navitem/Tents/), but getting them can be complicated. We had decided to take our chances and wait in line to get in, a bad idea on weekends or evenings, when lines are long. But we arrived on a weekday afternoon and in less than an hour, we were seated in the Schottenhamel tent, one of 14 huge temporary beer halls that house celebrants during the event. Costumed servers appeared as soon as we sat down, and 1-liter glass mugs quickly materialized full of Spatenbräu beer, a special copper-colored Oktoberfest variety that has a fresh taste and a malty flavor.

Many partyers wore traditional Bavarian clothing, with men sporting lederhosen (leather breeches with suspenders) and women clad in dirndl; all were wearing smiles. Before long, we were singing in unison with the people at the tables around us. We swayed in time to the music, mugs in hand and toasts on our lips.

As the hour grew later and later, we tore ourselves away, hating to leave but recognizing that duty called.

Symphony in B

By the next afternoon we were on a train headed north to lovely Bamberg, a UNESCO World Heritage city built on seven hills, much like ancient Rome. The hills provide superb views of a beautifully preserved Old Town crisscrossed by branches of the Regnitz River. Some consider the city's Domplatz to be one of Europe's loveliest squares, and many of the city's buildings, including the Cathedral of St. Peter and St. George, are magnificent.
But Bamberg has other claims to fame. It has the highest concentration of breweries in the world and calls itself the true home of beer, a place that is "a symphony in B -- Baroque, bread, bridges and beer." Our work was cut out for us.

We made our first stop at Klosterbräu (3 Obere Mühlbrücke), founded in 1533 and the city's oldest brew pub. I felt as though I were stepping back into history at this atmospheric place, which had a plethora of fine beers on tap.

There were many good brew pubs in this town of 70,000 but one stood out: Schlenkerla, known for its smokebeer, a Bamberg specialty (6 Dominikanerstrasse, http://www.smokebeer.com). The black, dry beer tastes of smoked ham.

Matthias Trum, whose family has operated the brewery for six generations, put his business into perspective: "We've been through the Thirty Years' War, the Great Depression, two world wars, and the brewery is still here," he said. "So when people say to me, 'How do you change things?' I say, 'I don't.' "

Last stop: Bremen

Bidding auf Wiedersehen to Bamberg, we boarded a train that took us four hours northwest to Bremen, a maritime city dominated by an interesting Old Town, cathedral and town hall. The special draw for us was Beck's, Germany's largest brewery.

The classic German lager, responsible for 30% of all German beer exports, is manufactured along the banks of the Weser River. We toured the plant, where we tasted the original Beck's (crisp and smooth) and some of the more unusual brews made for the domestic market: beer mixed with lemonade, green tea, Sprite and Fanta Orange.

We learned, among other things, that beer is the oldest beverage produced by man.

"We think it happened something like this," a guide said. "A woman forgot to take fresh bread back into her house, it rained and fermentation began."

Yes, an oversimplification. But I'll drink to her anyway. Just not with a beer mixed with Fanta Orange.


(Dan Neil / Los Angeles Times)

The Lowenbrau tent, with its venerable lion emblem, attracts fans. The beer is one of the oldest brands in Bavaria, dating to the 14th century.


[email protected]

Thanks Frank for the story on German beer. It's amazing how much the Germans take pride with their beer. All others pale in comparision. Don't even bring up English ales to them. I have to admit that my taste puts the German brews ahead of all the others. The only German beers that I don't care for are the ones made with lemonade.

Ditto Frank. Roger and I may disagree over Monzon-Briscoe, but we share the same opinion of great German beer.

P.S. I've been to the Lowenbrau beer garden shown in the picture.

[kikibalt]

You're welcome Tom.

Now, wtf is this red and blue lettering thing, makes this thread look like a cartoon....

[dagosd2000]

SITTING AND WAITING AIN'T SO BAD ANYMORE

There was a time when I couldn't stand to wait for something to materialize or not. Now I know there'd be exceptions to this,but those scenarios would be life and death matters.

What I'm talking about is the forthcoming show I have on the docket with the World Boxing Hall Of Fame. As Rick has pointed out there could be room for improvement with communication and decision making within the Hall. With my art pending an approval for showing,I'm sitting and waiting for a response. I am making overtures to the powers at hand,but like I said,I sit and wait.

I mentioned on a previous post that I'm compulsive. I don't know now. I sit and wait,but it doesn't bother me. It makes no difference one way or another. Maybe some of my wife's Mexicaness is rubbing off.

Like they say in Mexico,"Si Dios quiere."(If God wants it to happen)

[kikibalt]

[Rick Farris]

raylawpc wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
This was sent sent to me by my friend and fellow boxing historian, Tony Triem.
Tony wrote this awhile back, and like myself is a Yank.
Bennie, Rob, tellboy, Wildhawke, Brits, historians, regulars who would like to comment, please do.

-Rick Farris
_________________________________________________________________


THE TEN BEST BRITISH FIGHTERS EVER

After all, the British invented modern-day boxing, as we know it, in 1867 when John Graham Chambers and his friend, Sir John Sholto Douglas, the eighth Marquis of Queensbury, introduced rules to the game that changed it dramatically. They outlawed wrestling, required fighters to wear gloves, provided for a one-minute rest between rounds and gave a fighter 10 seconds to rise after getting floored.

In the ensuing 140 years, dozens of great fighters have emerged from the birthplace of the fight game, and what follows is one man's listing of the 10 best. It's never easy deciding who gets left off of a list like this, but not everybody can make the cut. If they could there would be nothing to fight about. These are the best of the best.

Jimmy Wilde
131-3-2 (99), 13 no-decisions
World Flyweight Champion 1916-'23

It's hard for fans of any era to properly appreciate a man who fought several generations before their own, but Wilde's greatness shouldn't be overlooked just because it occurred 90 years ago. A fighter's historical value is measured by how well he did against the best fighters of his era and in this regard Wilde has few peers in all of boxing, never mind British boxing.

Look at the record again: three losses in 149 fights, with 99 knockouts. Though Wilde rarely weighed more than 100 pounds he was among the best punchers ever. The Ring magazine placed him third among history's great punchers, behind only Joe Louis and Sam Langford, two icons of the sport. And his mammoth winning streaks are rivaled only by those compiled by Sugar Ray Robinson and Willie Pep. This is where he belongs and it's not close.

Freddy Welsh
73-5-7 (32), 82 decisions
World Lightweight Champion 1914-'17

It's unfortunate that when Welsh is remembered at all, it's as the man from whom the great Benny Leonard won the lightweight title in 1917. And it's true, there are worse ways to be remembered. But Welsh was a hell of a lightweight in his own right and his record against the best 135-pounders of the era proves it.

As his record suggests, Welsh was not the puncher Wilde was - few were. And stylistically he was at the other end of the spectrum, a quick-footed, fleet-fisted fighter who relied on his defense the way Wilde relied on his right hand. But because he wasn't a puncher doesn't mean Welsh wasn't great. He was a superb boxer in an age when the ranks were full of tough, angry little guys who could fight. Welsh was among the best.

Jim Driscoll
52-3-6 (35), 8 no-decisions
British Featherweight Champion 1907-'13

Like Welsh, Driscoll was more defensive than offensive and kept his opponents off-balance with superior footwork, speed, and science. He was a better puncher than was Welsh and to be frank you could swap their places in this ranking without too much argument. The primary difference is Driscoll lost to Welsh via disqualification in Cardiff in 1910, and never won a world title - officially.

Driscoll did everything to champion Abe Attell in their title fight in 1909 in New York that one fighter could do to another without knocking him out, and the so-called "newspaper decision" went his way unanimously. But this was the no-decision era, in which any fight that didn't end in knockout was a no-decision. Attell never gave him a rematch, and you couldn't blame him.

Lennox Lewis
41-2 (32)
Heavyweight Champion 1993-'94, 1997-'2001, 2001-'03

There are those who would put Lewis at the top of this list, but only as a result of a favorable bias toward heavyweights or modern fighters or both. Each of the fighters who rate higher than Lewis has more wins than he has total fights and the breadth of one's body of work, not just its visibility, must weigh heavily in these discussions.

That said, Lewis was a wonderful, mostly dominant heavyweight champion whose greatest strength was his versatility. When facing a big puncher, such as David Tua, he could move and box superbly. When confronted with a weaker man, say Andrew Golota or Frans Botha, he was no less destructive than was George Foreman or Joe Louis. And if this were a ranking of the greatest British heavyweights, there is little doubt he'd be at the top. As it is, there's no shame in coming in fourth.

Bob Fitzsimmons
40-11 (32) 11 no-decisions, 1 no-contest
World Middleweight Champion 1891-'97
World Heavyweight Champion 1897-'99
World Light Heavyweight Champion 1903-'05

You could argue Fitzsimmons' inclusion here, as he fought entirely in Australia and the United States and never in Great Britain. Nevertheless, "Ruby Robert" was born in Helston, Cornwall , England , and that qualifies him in this book. You could argue too that his position as boxing's first triple-crown champion is overrated; the light heavyweight crown, which he won in 1903 by beating George Gardner, was mostly a publicity stunt by Gardner 's manager.

Still, Fitzsimmons was outweighed by 30 pounds when he knocked out Jim Corbett to win the heavyweight title, and was 40 years old when he stopped Gardner . His win over Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil) to win the middleweight crown in 1891 was huge, and, along with James J. Jeffries, who relieved him of the heavyweight belt, Fitzsimmons was one of the dominant fighters of his time.

Ted "Kid" Lewis
173-30-14 (71), 65 no-decisions
World Welterweight Champion 1915-'16, 1917-'19

Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali will be forever linked. That's how it is with Lewis and Jack Britton, who fought one another no less than 20 times between 1915 and 1921, many times with the world welterweight title on the line. They passed it back and forth like it was the plague but Britton wasn't the only great fighter with whom Lewis tangled. He fought all the best fighters at or around his weight including Benny Leonard (Lewis won the "newspaper" decision), and Maxie Rosenbloom (Lewis lost on a foul).

Lewis didn't stop there. He fought solid middleweights and light heavies too, most notably the brilliant Frenchman Georges Carpentier, who stopped Lewis in the first round. For Lewis, even heavyweights, such as South Africa 's Alec Storbeck, whom Lewis stopped in a round, were on the menu. And in addition to holding the welterweight world title, Lewis was, at varying times, the British welterweight champion, the British and European welterweight champion, and the British middleweight champion.

Ken Buchanan 61-8 (27) Lightweight Champion 1970-'72

Like Freddie Welsh before him, Buchanan had the great misfortune of competing in the same era with a physical phenomenon to whom he would lose the title. Welsh had Benny Leonard, Buchanan had Roberto Duran, who stopped Buchanan under dubious circumstances in their title match in New York in 1972. Much has been made in the ensuing years about how Duran never gave Buchanan a rematch, but no less a source than Hall of Fame manager and trainer Gil Clancy, who worked for Buchanan, owed it to lack of fan interest rather than any reluctance on Duran's part.

Either way, Buchanan was a fine boxer-puncher who might have enjoyed a long reign indeed had it not been for Duran's wild tenacity and charisma. As it was, he beat a fine fighter in Ismael Laguna for the title, and defended against Ruben Navarro and then Laguna again before running into Duran. He also beat the great Carlos Ortiz (albeit in the 36-year-old Ortiz' final fight), and future champion Jim Watt.

Randy Turpin 66-8-1 (45) World Middleweight Champion 1951

Turpin is best remembered for his shocking win over middleweight champion Sugar Ray Robinson in London in 1951and it's true that a good deal of it was owed to Robinson's partying and philandering in the days leading up to what he thought would be an easy defense. But there was no such alibi for the rematch, which took place two months later in New York , and it was no easy right for Robinson then, either. Turpin, with his awkward strength and heavy jab, troubled Robinson the way Ken Norton troubled Muhammad Ali and Robinson had to work mightily to regain the title from Turpin on a 10-round knockout.

Either way, Turpin was more than the sum of his bouts with Robinson. He'd won the British and European middleweight titles before facing Robinson, and afterward won the British Empire middleweight title, too. Losses to Carl "Bobo" Olson and Tiberio Mitri appeared to finish him as a top fighter by the end of 1954, but the next year he claimed the British light heavyweight title with a knockout of Alex Buton.

Naseem Hamed 36-1 (31) Featherweight Champion 1997-2001

Many fans scoff now at Hamed, so one-sided and humbling was his points loss to the great Marco Antonio Barrera in Las Vegas in 2001. It ruined him as a fighter and performer but it doesn't erase what he got done before that night; namely, whipping good solid fighters such as Tom Johnson, Manuel Medina, Wayne McCullough, Kevin Kelley, Wilfredo Vazquez and Paul Ingle. And losing to Barrera, who surely will be viewed by history as one of the great featherweights, is no embarrassment.

Hamed's highly unorthodox style and outrageous personality made him a target of the purists, but he made up for technical failings and hubris with astonishing athleticism and punching power. It took a fighter the caliber of Barrera to silence him and if not for the copious amounts of money his popularity and drawing power had made for him up to that point, he'd likely have returned and made some noise still at 125 pounds.

Owen Moran 67-16-5 (33), 19 no-decisions

Moran never officially won a world title, but it's hard to think of another guy who came so close so many times against top-tier fighters. Moran twice fought Jim Driscoll, once to a draw (in Driscoll's last fight) and another to a no-decision. He fought the great old champion Able Attell five times and Battling Nelson too, and Ad Wolgast and Packey McFarland, all the biggest names among the lighter guys in the early 1900s.

Moran had a hard time winning against the very top guys and that's reflected in his record and in his position during the time as perennial contender. But no one had an easy time of it against him. He was as relentless and scrappy as any fighter you could name that came before or after him and belongs among the great prizefighters of England .

Its a great list . . . as long as its not in any particular order.

All I see is names, not numbers. He listed ten he thought were the best, but I see no particular order or reason for such.

-Rick

Rick and Tom --- This list is a ranking of the Ten Greatest Fighters from the British Empire. Tony Triem reveals that it was so intended when he writes within the Lennox Lewis coverage -- "And if this were a ranking of the greatest British heavyweights, there is little doubt he'd be at the top. As it is, there's no shame in coming in fourth."

Trying to come up with any list is a daunting task and the writer who does so is saying ---"I'm not afraid to lay it on the line. How about you, reader?"

However, in examining Tony Triem's challenging list and seeing what might constitute some omissions, one has to ask --- Where does he place Jem Mace --- Peter Jackson --- Len Wickwar --- Joe Calzahge ---. Food for thought gents!

John A. Bardelli

Then I disagree with his order. Fitz and Ken Buchanan should be higher. I have no problem with the guys on the list, though. Welch is too high - switch him with Buchanan. I agree with Jimmy Wilde at No. 1.

The Problem With Lists . . .

It's just a list of ten top British fighters, and a great list. I guess he could have made it the top 12 British fighters, and that way include guys like Wickwar or whoever. Personally, I wouldn't even have Hamed on the list. There is NO way to rate these guys, and the author did not attempt to do this. It's food for thought, and accomplished what I hoped it would, shed light on some of the greats of Great Britain. When anybody tries to say this guy should be ahead of that guy, well, it's just opinion. As Tony pointed out to me, the list is in no particular order. So why are we trying to put it in order? Nobody here is qualified, nobody on earth alive today is qualified. Tony put out a great list, the names he did not include that have been added by posters here are great additions. Lets not screw up the facts with a lot of opinions. Here is a a fact- The Brits could fight.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

SITTING AND WAITING AIN'T SO BAD ANYMORE

There was a time when I couldn't stand to wait for something to materialize or not. Now I know there'd be exceptions to this,but those scenarios would be life and death matters.

What I'm talking about is the forthcoming show I have on the docket with the World Boxing Hall Of Fame. As Rick has pointed out there could be room for improvement with communication and decision making within the Hall. With my art pending an approval for showing,I'm sitting and waiting for a response. I am making overtures to the powers at hand,but like I said,I sit and wait.

I mentioned on a previous post that I'm compulsive. I don't know now. I sit and wait,but it doesn't bother me. It makes no difference one way or another. Maybe some of my wife's Mexicaness is rubbing off.

Like they say in Mexico,"Si Dios quiere."(If God wants it to happen)

Roger, your art has already been approved for showing.
I want full conformation that your art will be on the cover of the program.
Do you know, it's the President's job to inform the inductees that they are going to be honored.
I phoned Lucia Rijker personally as a favor to Armando since I have her phone number.
I'm not certain that the rest have received an official letter from the President or have been notified.
I told Mando to get one out to Lucia quickly because she is leaving for a speaking tour thru Europe.
If not for your art, Rog, I would not have anything to do with the event this year.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

Rick, Len Wickwar and George Dixon, the bantamweight and featherweight great, didn't fight in the same era, let alone each other. In fact, I think that Wickwar was born after Dixon had passed away.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck . . .

It was my error. I was thinking of Solly Smith, the first boxer of Mexican lineage to hold a world title.
While researching George Dixon, the name Solly Smith came up, and then Wickwar, etc. I'm aware of the difference, just made a mistake.

By the way, got your PM and I'll take care of that for you.

-Rick Farris

[Randyman]

It saddens me that the World Boxing Hall of Fame is run, at least in part by people that have put there own interests and egos above our great sport. The Hall of Fame is where boxing's and a boxer's legacy are preserved and cared for, or at least it should be. It is where future fight fans can turn to for accurate information and data on anything boxing related, the fighters, the arenas, the great fight towns, the trainers, the managers and promoters. With a museum, all of boxing's memorabilia can be showcased. To those that love boxing, the Hall is sacred. That why a Hall of Fame is exist.

Rick, I know you do your best. I hope that you stay with the WBHOF. The Hall of Fame needs a man like you. As a friend, I'm proud of you and your dedication to all things boxing. I'm sure everyone on this thread feels the same way.

Randy

[dagosd2000]

I want to clear the air on my last post about Sitting And Waiting Ain't So Bad Anymore. When I was talking about not getting feedback,I certainly wasn't referring to Rick Farris. Without his guidance and encouragement I wouldn't be associated with the WBHOF.

[kikibalt]

Mafia Godmothers,


In this May 27, 2009 photo, Luisa Terracciano, wife of arrested clan boss Pasquale Carotenuto, is taken in custody by Carabinieri military police in the outskirts of Naples, southern Italy. (AP Photo/Salvatore Laporta)

Naples, Italy — They go by such nicknames as "Fat Cat" and "Tomboy." Their simmering power struggles once drove them into the streets, guns blazing. They rule their crime families with steely determination, and also raise the kids and stir the pasta.

Move over, Don Corleone. Godmothers are rising in the ranks of the Camorra, the Naples' area crime syndicate.

Women have long played a strong role in Camorra crime families, muscling, sometimes murdering, their way to the top. Their influence stretches back as far as the 1950s when a pregnant former beauty queen dubbed "pupetta" (little doll) shot dead the man who had ordered a hit on her husband, and allegedly settled into a life of crime.

Now, as the state steps up its war against the Camorra, rounding up scores of mobsters, the women are increasingly taking over the helm from their men.

"There is a growing number of women who hold executive roles" in the Camorra, Gen. Gaetano Maruccia, commander of the Carabinieri paramilitary police in the Naples area, told The Associated Press.

"They are either widows (of mob bosses) or wives of husbands who have been put in prison. They hold the reins."

Mothers, daughters, sisters and sisters-in-law are "assuming ever-more leading roles," Stefania Castaldi, a Naples-based prosecutor who investigates organized crime, said in an interview.

This family dimension of the Camorra finds its echo in mainstream Italian society – a family often will entrust its business to a woman relative rather than an outsider.

Story continues below Camorra women still perform the more "traditional" roles of cutting and repackaging cocaine and heroin in their kitchens or tidying up the hideouts of fugitive bosses, but others are wielding power on the streets. They shake down merchants in extortion rackets and increasingly direct drug trafficking worth millions of dollars, Castaldi said.

In one of the most lurid episodes, in 2002, two carloads of women from rival Camorra clans lurched through the streets of Lauro, a town near Naples, first trading insults, and then machine-gun fire and pistol shots until two grandmothers and a 16-year-old girl were dead. The root of the bloodshed: a turf war fueled by the murder of a clan boss' cousin.

Some of the Camorra "godmothers" rank right up there with the men in commanding clout and obedience, authorities say.

Among them is Maria Licciardi, one of the victors of the long-running blood feud between the Di Lauro and Secondigliano Alliance that left Naples littered nearly daily with bodies a few years back.

"Signora Licciardi is a true 'madrina' (godmother), absolutely," said Castaldi. "She was the sister of a boss, and she sat at the table with other bosses, she made decisions with them, she was right at their level."

Authorities are now investigating whether one of those decisions was an order to execute as many as 30 of her rivals, say investigators, speaking on condition of anonymity because Italian law prohibits officials from discussing ongoing probes.

Licciardi, a petite woman known by cohorts and enemies alike as 'a piccirella" (the little one), was arrested in 2001 after she was stopped while driving her car near Naples. On the run since 1999, Licciardi at the time figured on the list of Italy's top-30 wanted criminals.

She is one of a handful of female mobsters who are considered so top-level they are held in Italy's stiffest prison regime, which includes isolation and severely limited contact with the outside world.

"She's in prison, but she still commands. Prisons don't represent a barrier" for the Camorra, said Anna Maria Zaccaria, a sociologist at Naples Federico II University who is researching women's roles in the syndicate.

Licciardi is widely considered an able manager, particularly valued for her "powers of persuasion," Zaccaria said in an interview. Dangling promises of cash, she is believed to have managed to persuade some Camorra mobsters who were contemplating becoming turncoats to stay loyal to the clan, the professor said.

For generations, when such mobsters were arrested, mothers and wives would descend screaming into Naples' chaotic streets, throwing insults and sometimes punches at police arresting their men. But as investigators increasingly regard women as significant Camorra figures, handcuffs have been snapping shut around their wrists, too.

"They are ... as cocky as the men" when arrested, said Maruccia, the Carabinieri commander.

In July, Carabinieri swept up 11 women for drug trafficking in a raid on Naples' Sarno crime clan. In another blitz, a mother and her two grown daughters were arrested on organized-crime charges, including extortion.

The emergence of strong Camorra women has deep roots in Naples society.

"The Camorra woman follows the model of the Neapolitan woman" in the matriarchal Neapolitan society, said Zaccaria. "She is in charge of household spending, the raising of children."

These skills can translate into setting the interest rates for loan-sharking or doling out weekly payments to neighborhood kids to watch out for police raids.

Raising offspring means steeping children in a life of crime and arranging marriages of sons and daughters to spin a web of new or stronger ties with potentially rival clans. "They're very determined, very good at mapping out strategy, even sharper" than their men, Maruccia said in a telephone interview.

Assunta "Pupetta" Maresca – who carried out her 1955 vendetta with a Smith & Wesson and gave birth to her son in prison – allegedly pursued a long life of crime after her release from prison in the 1960s.

Aspiring male Camorristi must undergo a rite of passage – often carrying out a boss' order to kill or maim a rival, investigators say. Zaccaria said no such "requirement" applies to female bosses. Still, "they eliminate their enemies, their rivals, in a merciless way." said Zaccaria.

Even when the Camorra woman doesn't pack a pistol, they seem to pump their offspring with pride for bloody deeds which further their crime family's prestige.

Take Concetta Prestieri, matriarch of a family in the long-powerful Di Lauro clan. A son-turned-informant told investigators how, in 1981, the clan eliminated a rival by "bringing him into a basement, torturing him, killing him and cutting him into pieces," said Castaldi, the Naples prosecutor.

After the killing, the participants gathered around the table in Prestieri's kitchen.

"All the while, as they recounted the deed, the signora cooked up some spaghetti and served it at the table," Castaldi said.

After bomb blasts in Sicily in 1992 killed two leading anti-Mafia prosecutors, Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino, Italy stiffened its laws against top mobsters. One measure limited prison visits to family members, and Camorra women have used that to their advantage.

"Most of the bosses choose to see their wives," said Castaldi. "The women are the ones who most transmit the orders of the clan chieftain. She becomes the continuity between inside the prison and the outside" world, enhancing her prestige.

Imprisoned mob bosses are known to communicate their orders to visiting family with gestures, code words, even facial expressions.

Admiration – and perhaps fear – for these godmothers is reflected in their nicknames. One woman, shot in the face in a power struggle, goes by the moniker "a' masculona," or tomboy, while another, wounded in the shoulder in a turf war, is known as "la gattona," meaning fat she-cat.

While Camorra women seem to have no limits in their ascent to power, the women in Sicily's Cosa Nostra's apparently don't enjoy the same possibilities.

A Milan-based historian, Ombretta Ingrasci, author of a book about women in the Sicilian Mafia, speaks of a "glass ceiling," possibly because unlike the family-based Camorra, Cosa Nostra's organization is essentially a men's club which seeks its members not based on blood ties.

But does that mean Camorra women can be considered "liberated?"

In one key sense, sociologist Zaccaria thinks not.

"The code of the Camorra permits the boss to have all the lovers he wants, even publicly, because it reinforces his strength," she said. "The Camorra woman, in contrast, cannot betray him."

[raylawpc]

raylawpc wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
This was sent sent to me by my friend and fellow boxing historian, Tony Triem.
Tony wrote this awhile back, and like myself is a Yank.
Bennie, Rob, tellboy, Wildhawke, Brits, historians, regulars who would like to comment, please do.

-Rick Farris
_________________________________________________________________


THE TEN BEST BRITISH FIGHTERS EVER

After all, the British invented modern-day boxing, as we know it, in 1867 when John Graham Chambers and his friend, Sir John Sholto Douglas, the eighth Marquis of Queensbury, introduced rules to the game that changed it dramatically. They outlawed wrestling, required fighters to wear gloves, provided for a one-minute rest between rounds and gave a fighter 10 seconds to rise after getting floored.

In the ensuing 140 years, dozens of great fighters have emerged from the birthplace of the fight game, and what follows is one man's listing of the 10 best. It's never easy deciding who gets left off of a list like this, but not everybody can make the cut. If they could there would be nothing to fight about. These are the best of the best.

Jimmy Wilde
131-3-2 (99), 13 no-decisions
World Flyweight Champion 1916-'23

It's hard for fans of any era to properly appreciate a man who fought several generations before their own, but Wilde's greatness shouldn't be overlooked just because it occurred 90 years ago. A fighter's historical value is measured by how well he did against the best fighters of his era and in this regard Wilde has few peers in all of boxing, never mind British boxing.

Look at the record again: three losses in 149 fights, with 99 knockouts. Though Wilde rarely weighed more than 100 pounds he was among the best punchers ever. The Ring magazine placed him third among history's great punchers, behind only Joe Louis and Sam Langford, two icons of the sport. And his mammoth winning streaks are rivaled only by those compiled by Sugar Ray Robinson and Willie Pep. This is where he belongs and it's not close.

Freddy Welsh
73-5-7 (32), 82 decisions
World Lightweight Champion 1914-'17

It's unfortunate that when Welsh is remembered at all, it's as the man from whom the great Benny Leonard won the lightweight title in 1917. And it's true, there are worse ways to be remembered. But Welsh was a hell of a lightweight in his own right and his record against the best 135-pounders of the era proves it.

As his record suggests, Welsh was not the puncher Wilde was - few were. And stylistically he was at the other end of the spectrum, a quick-footed, fleet-fisted fighter who relied on his defense the way Wilde relied on his right hand. But because he wasn't a puncher doesn't mean Welsh wasn't great. He was a superb boxer in an age when the ranks were full of tough, angry little guys who could fight. Welsh was among the best.

Jim Driscoll
52-3-6 (35), 8 no-decisions
British Featherweight Champion 1907-'13

Like Welsh, Driscoll was more defensive than offensive and kept his opponents off-balance with superior footwork, speed, and science. He was a better puncher than was Welsh and to be frank you could swap their places in this ranking without too much argument. The primary difference is Driscoll lost to Welsh via disqualification in Cardiff in 1910, and never won a world title - officially.

Driscoll did everything to champion Abe Attell in their title fight in 1909 in New York that one fighter could do to another without knocking him out, and the so-called "newspaper decision" went his way unanimously. But this was the no-decision era, in which any fight that didn't end in knockout was a no-decision. Attell never gave him a rematch, and you couldn't blame him.

Lennox Lewis
41-2 (32)
Heavyweight Champion 1993-'94, 1997-'2001, 2001-'03

There are those who would put Lewis at the top of this list, but only as a result of a favorable bias toward heavyweights or modern fighters or both. Each of the fighters who rate higher than Lewis has more wins than he has total fights and the breadth of one's body of work, not just its visibility, must weigh heavily in these discussions.

That said, Lewis was a wonderful, mostly dominant heavyweight champion whose greatest strength was his versatility. When facing a big puncher, such as David Tua, he could move and box superbly. When confronted with a weaker man, say Andrew Golota or Frans Botha, he was no less destructive than was George Foreman or Joe Louis. And if this were a ranking of the greatest British heavyweights, there is little doubt he'd be at the top. As it is, there's no shame in coming in fourth.

Bob Fitzsimmons
40-11 (32) 11 no-decisions, 1 no-contest
World Middleweight Champion 1891-'97
World Heavyweight Champion 1897-'99
World Light Heavyweight Champion 1903-'05

You could argue Fitzsimmons' inclusion here, as he fought entirely in Australia and the United States and never in Great Britain. Nevertheless, "Ruby Robert" was born in Helston, Cornwall , England , and that qualifies him in this book. You could argue too that his position as boxing's first triple-crown champion is overrated; the light heavyweight crown, which he won in 1903 by beating George Gardner, was mostly a publicity stunt by Gardner 's manager.

Still, Fitzsimmons was outweighed by 30 pounds when he knocked out Jim Corbett to win the heavyweight title, and was 40 years old when he stopped Gardner . His win over Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil) to win the middleweight crown in 1891 was huge, and, along with James J. Jeffries, who relieved him of the heavyweight belt, Fitzsimmons was one of the dominant fighters of his time.

Ted "Kid" Lewis
173-30-14 (71), 65 no-decisions
World Welterweight Champion 1915-'16, 1917-'19

Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali will be forever linked. That's how it is with Lewis and Jack Britton, who fought one another no less than 20 times between 1915 and 1921, many times with the world welterweight title on the line. They passed it back and forth like it was the plague but Britton wasn't the only great fighter with whom Lewis tangled. He fought all the best fighters at or around his weight including Benny Leonard (Lewis won the "newspaper" decision), and Maxie Rosenbloom (Lewis lost on a foul).

Lewis didn't stop there. He fought solid middleweights and light heavies too, most notably the brilliant Frenchman Georges Carpentier, who stopped Lewis in the first round. For Lewis, even heavyweights, such as South Africa 's Alec Storbeck, whom Lewis stopped in a round, were on the menu. And in addition to holding the welterweight world title, Lewis was, at varying times, the British welterweight champion, the British and European welterweight champion, and the British middleweight champion.

Ken Buchanan 61-8 (27) Lightweight Champion 1970-'72

Like Freddie Welsh before him, Buchanan had the great misfortune of competing in the same era with a physical phenomenon to whom he would lose the title. Welsh had Benny Leonard, Buchanan had Roberto Duran, who stopped Buchanan under dubious circumstances in their title match in New York in 1972. Much has been made in the ensuing years about how Duran never gave Buchanan a rematch, but no less a source than Hall of Fame manager and trainer Gil Clancy, who worked for Buchanan, owed it to lack of fan interest rather than any reluctance on Duran's part.

Either way, Buchanan was a fine boxer-puncher who might have enjoyed a long reign indeed had it not been for Duran's wild tenacity and charisma. As it was, he beat a fine fighter in Ismael Laguna for the title, and defended against Ruben Navarro and then Laguna again before running into Duran. He also beat the great Carlos Ortiz (albeit in the 36-year-old Ortiz' final fight), and future champion Jim Watt.

Randy Turpin 66-8-1 (45) World Middleweight Champion 1951

Turpin is best remembered for his shocking win over middleweight champion Sugar Ray Robinson in London in 1951and it's true that a good deal of it was owed to Robinson's partying and philandering in the days leading up to what he thought would be an easy defense. But there was no such alibi for the rematch, which took place two months later in New York , and it was no easy right for Robinson then, either. Turpin, with his awkward strength and heavy jab, troubled Robinson the way Ken Norton troubled Muhammad Ali and Robinson had to work mightily to regain the title from Turpin on a 10-round knockout.

Either way, Turpin was more than the sum of his bouts with Robinson. He'd won the British and European middleweight titles before facing Robinson, and afterward won the British Empire middleweight title, too. Losses to Carl "Bobo" Olson and Tiberio Mitri appeared to finish him as a top fighter by the end of 1954, but the next year he claimed the British light heavyweight title with a knockout of Alex Buton.

Naseem Hamed 36-1 (31) Featherweight Champion 1997-2001

Many fans scoff now at Hamed, so one-sided and humbling was his points loss to the great Marco Antonio Barrera in Las Vegas in 2001. It ruined him as a fighter and performer but it doesn't erase what he got done before that night; namely, whipping good solid fighters such as Tom Johnson, Manuel Medina, Wayne McCullough, Kevin Kelley, Wilfredo Vazquez and Paul Ingle. And losing to Barrera, who surely will be viewed by history as one of the great featherweights, is no embarrassment.

Hamed's highly unorthodox style and outrageous personality made him a target of the purists, but he made up for technical failings and hubris with astonishing athleticism and punching power. It took a fighter the caliber of Barrera to silence him and if not for the copious amounts of money his popularity and drawing power had made for him up to that point, he'd likely have returned and made some noise still at 125 pounds.

Owen Moran 67-16-5 (33), 19 no-decisions

Moran never officially won a world title, but it's hard to think of another guy who came so close so many times against top-tier fighters. Moran twice fought Jim Driscoll, once to a draw (in Driscoll's last fight) and another to a no-decision. He fought the great old champion Able Attell five times and Battling Nelson too, and Ad Wolgast and Packey McFarland, all the biggest names among the lighter guys in the early 1900s.

Moran had a hard time winning against the very top guys and that's reflected in his record and in his position during the time as perennial contender. But no one had an easy time of it against him. He was as relentless and scrappy as any fighter you could name that came before or after him and belongs among the great prizefighters of England .

Its a great list . . . as long as its not in any particular order.

All I see is names, not numbers. He listed ten he thought were the best, but I see no particular order or reason for such.

-Rick

Rick and Tom --- This list is a ranking of the Ten Greatest Fighters from the British Empire. Tony Triem reveals that it was so intended when he writes within the Lennox Lewis coverage -- "And if this were a ranking of the greatest British heavyweights, there is little doubt he'd be at the top. As it is, there's no shame in coming in fourth."

Trying to come up with any list is a daunting task and the writer who does so is saying ---"I'm not afraid to lay it on the line. How about you, reader?"

However, in examining Tony Triem's challenging list and seeing what might constitute some omissions, one has to ask --- Where does he place Jem Mace --- Peter Jackson --- Len Wickwar --- Joe Calzahge ---. Food for thought gents!

John A. Bardelli

Then I disagree with his order. Fitz and Ken Buchanan should be higher. I have no problem with the guys on the list, though. Welch is too high - switch him with Buchanan. I agree with Jimmy Wilde at No. 1.

The Problem With Lists . . .

It's just a list of ten top British fighters, and a great list. I guess he could have made it the top 12 British fighters, and that way include guys like Wickwar or whoever. Personally, I wouldn't even have Hamed on the list. There is NO way to rate these guys, and the author did not attempt to do this. It's food for thought, and accomplished what I hoped it would, shed light on some of the greats of Great Britain. When anybody tries to say this guy should be ahead of that guy, well, it's just opinion. As Tony pointed out to me, the list is in no particular order. So why are we trying to put it in order? Nobody here is qualified, nobody on earth alive today is qualified. Tony put out a great list, the names he did not include that have been added by posters here are great additions. Lets not screw up the facts with a lot of opinions. Here is a a fact- The Brits could fight.


-Rick Farris

If its not in any particular order, then what did Tony mean when he wrote, regarding Lennox Lewis, "if this were a ranking of the greatest British heavyweights, there is little doubt he'd be at the top. As it is, there's no shame in coming in fourth?"

[dagosd2000]

Mafia Godmothers,


In this May 27, 2009 photo, Luisa Terracciano, wife of arrested clan boss Pasquale Carotenuto, is taken in custody by Carabinieri military police in the outskirts of Naples, southern Italy. (AP Photo/Salvatore Laporta)

Naples, Italy — They go by such nicknames as "Fat Cat" and "Tomboy." Their simmering power struggles once drove them into the streets, guns blazing. They rule their crime families with steely determination, and also raise the kids and stir the pasta.

Move over, Don Corleone. Godmothers are rising in the ranks of the Camorra, the Naples' area crime syndicate.

Women have long played a strong role in Camorra crime families, muscling, sometimes murdering, their way to the top. Their influence stretches back as far as the 1950s when a pregnant former beauty queen dubbed "pupetta" (little doll) shot dead the man who had ordered a hit on her husband, and allegedly settled into a life of crime.

Now, as the state steps up its war against the Camorra, rounding up scores of mobsters, the women are increasingly taking over the helm from their men.

"There is a growing number of women who hold executive roles" in the Camorra, Gen. Gaetano Maruccia, commander of the Carabinieri paramilitary police in the Naples area, told The Associated Press.

"They are either widows (of mob bosses) or wives of husbands who have been put in prison. They hold the reins."

Mothers, daughters, sisters and sisters-in-law are "assuming ever-more leading roles," Stefania Castaldi, a Naples-based prosecutor who investigates organized crime, said in an interview.

This family dimension of the Camorra finds its echo in mainstream Italian society – a family often will entrust its business to a woman relative rather than an outsider.

Story continues below Camorra women still perform the more "traditional" roles of cutting and repackaging cocaine and heroin in their kitchens or tidying up the hideouts of fugitive bosses, but others are wielding power on the streets. They shake down merchants in extortion rackets and increasingly direct drug trafficking worth millions of dollars, Castaldi said.

In one of the most lurid episodes, in 2002, two carloads of women from rival Camorra clans lurched through the streets of Lauro, a town near Naples, first trading insults, and then machine-gun fire and pistol shots until two grandmothers and a 16-year-old girl were dead. The root of the bloodshed: a turf war fueled by the murder of a clan boss' cousin.

Some of the Camorra "godmothers" rank right up there with the men in commanding clout and obedience, authorities say.

Among them is Maria Licciardi, one of the victors of the long-running blood feud between the Di Lauro and Secondigliano Alliance that left Naples littered nearly daily with bodies a few years back.

"Signora Licciardi is a true 'madrina' (godmother), absolutely," said Castaldi. "She was the sister of a boss, and she sat at the table with other bosses, she made decisions with them, she was right at their level."

Authorities are now investigating whether one of those decisions was an order to execute as many as 30 of her rivals, say investigators, speaking on condition of anonymity because Italian law prohibits officials from discussing ongoing probes.

Licciardi, a petite woman known by cohorts and enemies alike as 'a piccirella" (the little one), was arrested in 2001 after she was stopped while driving her car near Naples. On the run since 1999, Licciardi at the time figured on the list of Italy's top-30 wanted criminals.

She is one of a handful of female mobsters who are considered so top-level they are held in Italy's stiffest prison regime, which includes isolation and severely limited contact with the outside world.

"She's in prison, but she still commands. Prisons don't represent a barrier" for the Camorra, said Anna Maria Zaccaria, a sociologist at Naples Federico II University who is researching women's roles in the syndicate.

Licciardi is widely considered an able manager, particularly valued for her "powers of persuasion," Zaccaria said in an interview. Dangling promises of cash, she is believed to have managed to persuade some Camorra mobsters who were contemplating becoming turncoats to stay loyal to the clan, the professor said.

For generations, when such mobsters were arrested, mothers and wives would descend screaming into Naples' chaotic streets, throwing insults and sometimes punches at police arresting their men. But as investigators increasingly regard women as significant Camorra figures, handcuffs have been snapping shut around their wrists, too.

"They are ... as cocky as the men" when arrested, said Maruccia, the Carabinieri commander.

In July, Carabinieri swept up 11 women for drug trafficking in a raid on Naples' Sarno crime clan. In another blitz, a mother and her two grown daughters were arrested on organized-crime charges, including extortion.

The emergence of strong Camorra women has deep roots in Naples society.

"The Camorra woman follows the model of the Neapolitan woman" in the matriarchal Neapolitan society, said Zaccaria. "She is in charge of household spending, the raising of children."

These skills can translate into setting the interest rates for loan-sharking or doling out weekly payments to neighborhood kids to watch out for police raids.

Raising offspring means steeping children in a life of crime and arranging marriages of sons and daughters to spin a web of new or stronger ties with potentially rival clans. "They're very determined, very good at mapping out strategy, even sharper" than their men, Maruccia said in a telephone interview.

Assunta "Pupetta" Maresca – who carried out her 1955 vendetta with a Smith & Wesson and gave birth to her son in prison – allegedly pursued a long life of crime after her release from prison in the 1960s.

Aspiring male Camorristi must undergo a rite of passage – often carrying out a boss' order to kill or maim a rival, investigators say. Zaccaria said no such "requirement" applies to female bosses. Still, "they eliminate their enemies, their rivals, in a merciless way." said Zaccaria.

Even when the Camorra woman doesn't pack a pistol, they seem to pump their offspring with pride for bloody deeds which further their crime family's prestige.

Take Concetta Prestieri, matriarch of a family in the long-powerful Di Lauro clan. A son-turned-informant told investigators how, in 1981, the clan eliminated a rival by "bringing him into a basement, torturing him, killing him and cutting him into pieces," said Castaldi, the Naples prosecutor.

After the killing, the participants gathered around the table in Prestieri's kitchen.

"All the while, as they recounted the deed, the signora cooked up some spaghetti and served it at the table," Castaldi said.

After bomb blasts in Sicily in 1992 killed two leading anti-Mafia prosecutors, Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino, Italy stiffened its laws against top mobsters. One measure limited prison visits to family members, and Camorra women have used that to their advantage.

"Most of the bosses choose to see their wives," said Castaldi. "The women are the ones who most transmit the orders of the clan chieftain. She becomes the continuity between inside the prison and the outside" world, enhancing her prestige.

Imprisoned mob bosses are known to communicate their orders to visiting family with gestures, code words, even facial expressions.

Admiration – and perhaps fear – for these godmothers is reflected in their nicknames. One woman, shot in the face in a power struggle, goes by the moniker "a' masculona," or tomboy, while another, wounded in the shoulder in a turf war, is known as "la gattona," meaning fat she-cat.

While Camorra women seem to have no limits in their ascent to power, the women in Sicily's Cosa Nostra's apparently don't enjoy the same possibilities.

A Milan-based historian, Ombretta Ingrasci, author of a book about women in the Sicilian Mafia, speaks of a "glass ceiling," possibly because unlike the family-based Camorra, Cosa Nostra's organization is essentially a men's club which seeks its members not based on blood ties.

But does that mean Camorra women can be considered "liberated?"

In one key sense, sociologist Zaccaria thinks not.

"The code of the Camorra permits the boss to have all the lovers he wants, even publicly, because it reinforces his strength," she said. "The Camorra woman, in contrast, cannot betray him."

Frank
This story really sickens me. The Camorra of Naples was where my grandfathers schooling came from when he took over Chicago. The reason for the Mafia wives have become a part of organized crime is very simple:Drugs. The old Outfit in Chicago wouldn't get involved with drugs because they believed it ruined mens' souls by making them become addicts. Soon children would use narcotics. Those guys didn't believe in drug dealing. The New York Syndicate was different.Today all organized crime is driven by drugs.

You can see by reading that story about those ugly old bags moving into their husbands' operations that drugs are a key factor. Because of the amount of money to be made and because of the addictiveness of narcotics,it has brought women and younger people into its circle. Drugs destroy any semblence of civilization.In old Chicago the wiseguys left their wives and children out of doing business. Inside the home it was sacred territory. Nothing was discussed in front of the family.

Maybe the old Chicago mobsters were ahead of their time. Their business was liquor,gambling,and vice. It's legal today. It's marketed like it's good for you. Maybe it is. Only in moderation.

[dagosd2000]

Roberto Clemente

[Rick Farris]

Roberto Clemente

I saw his image everywhere I went in the Domincan Republic, twenty years ago.

[dagosd2000]

Chula Vista Little League. Homies from my neck of the woods. GO ALL THE WAY

[Randyman]

This photo was sent to me by one of my cousins that I "discovered" while researching our family tree. Actually, we discovered each other on a message board similar to this one but geared for genealogy. She recently came into possession of this photo and sent it to me. I cannot describe how important this photograph is to me. I find it unbelievable. I thought that I would never see a photo of my greatgrandfather. I had already seen one photo each of my great grandmother and my great aunt Gregoria but I thought a photo of Rafael would elude me forever. This is monumental to me.

The photo is of my great Grandparents Rafael and Margarita De La O with their daughter, Gregoria. I'm just guessing but this photo was probably taken at the old Rancho De La O, in Dona Ana, New Mexico, which the family was still in possession of at the time. Rafael De la O was born in 1840 and passed away on March 19, 1914.

Randy

[dagosd2000]

This photo was sent to me by one of my cousins that I "discovered" while researching our family tree. Actually, we discovered each other on a message board similar to this one but geared for genealogy. She recently came into possession of this photo and sent it to me. I cannot describe how important this photograph is to me. I find it unbelievable. I thought that I would ever see a photo of my greatgrandfather. I had already seen one photo each of my great grandmother and my great aunt Gregoria but I thought a photo of Rafael would elude me forever. This is monumental to me.

The photo is of my great Grandparents Rafael and Margarita De La O with their daughter, Gregoria. I'm just guessing but this photo was probably taken at the old Rancho De La O, in Dona Ana, New Mexico, which the family was still in possession of at the time. Rafael De la O passed away on March 19, 1914.

Randy

Randy
That's really going back in time. The Mexican Revolution was going full swing. They have places that can enhance the images of old photographs like the one of your granparents. You have a piece of history and a personal treasure.

[Randyman]

This photo was sent to me by one of my cousins that I "discovered" while researching our family tree. Actually, we discovered each other on a message board similar to this one but geared for genealogy. She recently came into possession of this photo and sent it to me. I cannot describe how important this photograph is to me. I find it unbelievable. I thought that I would ever see a photo of my greatgrandfather. I had already seen one photo each of my great grandmother and my great aunt Gregoria but I thought a photo of Rafael would elude me forever. This is monumental to me.

The photo is of my great Grandparents Rafael and Margarita De La O with their daughter, Gregoria. I'm just guessing but this photo was probably taken at the old Rancho De La O, in Dona Ana, New Mexico, which the family was still in possession of at the time. Rafael De la O passed away on March 19, 1914.

Randy

Randy
That's really going back in time. The Mexican Revolution was going full swing. They have places that can enhance the images of old photographs like the one of your granparents. You have a piece of history and a personal treasure.

Rog, I feel so lucky and blessed to have received this photo. Much thanks to my cousin Juanita.