Tiger Flowers and disputed decisions

[Ezzard]

Flowers was in a number of hotly disputed decisions.

The three Greb fights and the Walker fight...

Can anyone shed light on these fights/decisions?

I believe he was floored twice by Walker.

It seems to me that perhaps Flowers is neglected by many when the roll call of MW greats is made.

[granberry]

Couldn't be more true.

Flowers was the wrong opponent for Greb at that stage of his career.

Flowers was a fighter who couldn't punch and had great endurance and was very active. That negated Greb's strengths (his incredible endurance and activity rate) plus Greb was getting old as a fighter.

Even though Walker did score the knockdowns (on getting up both times Flowers did a backflip to show he wasn't hurt) the reports say Flowers was all over Walker for most of the fight and deserved the decision.

The RING detective (back when the RING magazine really was the Bible of boxing and Nat Fleischer was still alive)

had a long RING Detective article by Dan Daniel on the number of people involved who died shortly after the Walker-Flowers fight.

Flowers never woke up from the anesthetic after a simple operation not long after that ( with the SAME anesthesiologist who had been at the operation where Harry Greb died).

The referee of the fight 'committed suicide' by shooting himself while sitting in a car at a lake in Minnesota with a rifle that he could not have pulled the trigger of in the position he was found.

And there were others involved in the Walker-Flowers fight who also died in various circumstances not long afterward.

As far as I know there are no films of Flowers.

[Ezzard]

Thanks, Granberry

Interesting about the 'suicide' and the other deaths...

Does anyone know anything about the first Greb fight? That was also considered to be a close decision?

[klompton]

Couldn't be more true.

Flowers was the wrong opponent for Greb at that stage of his career.

Flowers was a fighter who couldn't punch and had great endurance and was very active. That negated Greb's strengths (his incredible endurance and activity rate) plus Greb was getting old as a fighter.

Even though Walker did score the knockdowns (on getting up both times Flowers did a backflip to show he wasn't hurt) the reports say Flowers was all over Walker for most of the fight and deserved the decision.

The RING detective (back when the RING magazine really was the Bible of boxing and Nat Fleischer was still alive)

had a long RING Detective article by Dan Daniel on the number of people involved who died shortly after the Walker-Flowers fight.

Flowers never woke up from the anesthetic after a simple operation not long after that ( with the SAME anesthesiologist who had been at the operation where Harry Greb died).

The referee of the fight 'committed suicide' by shooting himself while sitting in a car at a lake in Minnesota with a rifle that he could not have pulled the trigger of in the position he was found.

And there were others involved in the Walker-Flowers fight who also died in various circumstances not long afterward.

As far as I know there are no films of Flowers.

HA! Your quoting Dan Daniel?? He was the most pathetic excuse for a boxing writer EVER bar none. Even Jim Bagg is better than him and Bagg is pure warm diarhea. Flowers did not die under the same dr.'s care as Greb. Thats a myth. The decision in the Walker bout was disputed but the idea that a whole trail of people was wiped out to cover up a conspiracy is just plain retarded. It was competetive enough that more than one person voted for Walker. not to mention it was 1926/7 Walker was white, Flowers was black. Walker was managed by one of the most influencial and visible managers in Kearns and Flowers was managed by Walk Miller who was none to popular. They could have stolen the fight outright from Flowers and admitted it and there would never have been a blip on the radar. Why kill all those people?? Talk about Hokum. But... Thats what I would expect from Dan Daniel.

The real fight that was Flower's most controversial was his loss to McTigue. He clearly won that but they had celebrity judges with no experience as part of the promotion and they awarded the fight to McTigue. So even there it wasnt a conspiracy, just ignorance.

[Ezzard]

Klompton, what are your thoughts on the 3 Greb decisions?

[granberry]

Couldn't be more true.

Flowers was the wrong opponent for Greb at that stage of his career.

Flowers was a fighter who couldn't punch and had great endurance and was very active. That negated Greb's strengths (his incredible endurance and activity rate) plus Greb was getting old as a fighter.

Even though Walker did score the knockdowns (on getting up both times Flowers did a backflip to show he wasn't hurt) the reports say Flowers was all over Walker for most of the fight and deserved the decision.

The RING detective (back when the RING magazine really was the Bible of boxing and Nat Fleischer was still alive)

had a long RING Detective article by Dan Daniel on the number of people involved who died shortly after the Walker-Flowers fight.

Flowers never woke up from the anesthetic after a simple operation not long after that ( with the SAME anesthesiologist who had been at the operation where Harry Greb died).

The referee of the fight 'committed suicide' by shooting himself while sitting in a car at a lake in Minnesota with a rifle that he could not have pulled the trigger of in the position he was found.

And there were others involved in the Walker-Flowers fight who also died in various circumstances not long afterward.

As far as I know there are no films of Flowers.

HA! Your quoting Dan Daniel?? He was the most pathetic excuse for a boxing writer EVER bar none. Even Jim Bagg is better than him and Bagg is pure warm diarhea. Flowers did not die under the same dr.'s care as Greb. Thats a myth. The decision in the Walker bout was disputed but the idea that a whole trail of people was wiped out to cover up a conspiracy is just plain retarded. It was competetive enough that more than one person voted for Walker. not to mention it was 1926/7 Walker was white, Flowers was black. Walker was managed by one of the most influencial and visible managers in Kearns and Flowers was managed by Walk Miller who was none to popular. They could have stolen the fight outright from Flowers and admitted it and there would never have been a blip on the radar. Why kill all those people?? Talk about Hokum. But... Thats what I would expect from Dan Daniel.

The real fight that was Flower's most controversial was his loss to McTigue. He clearly won that but they had celebrity judges with no experience as part of the promotion and they awarded the fight to McTigue. So even there it wasnt a conspiracy, just ignorance.

Klompton's hysterics and personal dislikes are of no interest.

The same anesthesiologist WAS at both the Greb and Flowers operations.

Klompton’s hysterical dislike of Dan Daniel cannot change the fact that Flowers, the referee of the Flowers-Walker fight, and several others connected with the fight all died not long after the fight.

To quote Klompton himself,

what Klompton has written above is pure warm diarhea.

And add the word HYSTERICAL and you have hysterical pure warm diarhea.

[Seamus]

Tiger Flowers manager Walk Miller supposedly committed suicide the following year by shooting himself in the temple and thru the heart.

[klompton]

People die, it doesnt mean anything. And NO the same Dr. did not attend to both Greb and Flowers. That is an outright myth. Period. If you have any other proof other than Dan Daniels word then by all means post it. I have the names of everyone present at both surgeries from the doctors themselves, as well as Greb's death certificate. You have a magazine article written by someone who wasnt there 30 years later.

[The End]

Couldn't be more true.

Flowers was the wrong opponent for Greb at that stage of his career.

Flowers was a fighter who couldn't punch and had great endurance and was very active. That negated Greb's strengths (his incredible endurance and activity rate) plus Greb was getting old as a fighter.

Even though Walker did score the knockdowns (on getting up both times Flowers did a backflip to show he wasn't hurt) the reports say Flowers was all over Walker for most of the fight and deserved the decision.

The RING detective (back when the RING magazine really was the Bible of boxing and Nat Fleischer was still alive)

had a long RING Detective article by Dan Daniel on the number of people involved who died shortly after the Walker-Flowers fight.

Flowers never woke up from the anesthetic after a simple operation not long after that ( with the SAME anesthesiologist who had been at the operation where Harry Greb died).

The referee of the fight 'committed suicide' by shooting himself while sitting in a car at a lake in Minnesota with a rifle that he could not have pulled the trigger of in the position he was found.

And there were others involved in the Walker-Flowers fight who also died in various circumstances not long afterward.

As far as I know there are no films of Flowers.

I hate to ask you for proof of this because you always turn defensive .

BUT.....do you have proof of this?

[granberry]

Dan Daniel's article has been cited.

GO FIND IT.

[slakka]

2 doctors who lost Harry Greb on friday Oct 22 1926 were Weinberg and McGivern who were nowhere near Tiger Flowers at any time place in his life.
Komptons right.

[raylawpc]

2 doctors who lost Harry Greb on friday Oct 22 1926 were Weinberg and McGivern who were nowhere near Tiger Flowers at any time place in his life.
Komptons right.

The Associated Press reported that Flowers died at the private hospital of W. G. Fralick, who performed the operation. According to this report, Flowers did not die on the operating table. He died some hours later. Fralick's hospital was located in New York City. Greb died in Atlantic City.

[klompton]

Exactly. Fraalick was a noted physician in New York who catered to athletes and celebrities. Often working on boxers injured hands. He had nothing to do with Greb's surgery and Charles McGivern nor Berenda Weinberg had anything to do with Flowers. There was no "anesthesiologist" present at both because in those days the practice of anesthesiology was in its infincy and hadnt even developed into a specialized school of medicine. As such the attending physician was the person who applied the ether. There was nothing nefarious about the deaths of either Greb or Flowers other than flat out coincidence. Ether was a very imprecise science which could cause a whole host of complications resulting in death. Deaths on the operating table or in the recovery room (as was the case with Flowers and Greb) was not uncommon at all during this time period and many scholarly papers on the subject have tied this high mortality directly to the use of ether.

Sorry Gran but Dan Daniel is at best a third person source. AT BEST. He was also highly unreliable. If thats the best you can do to back up your ascertions your argument can be declared deader than Julius Caeser.

[granberry]

Klompton's fixation on Dan Daniel cannot change the fact that Tiger Flowers, AND his manager, AND the referee of the Walker -Flowers fight AND others connected with the fight all died a short time after the fight.

[klompton]

So what, it proves nothing. people die all the time. x, y, and z die and there is a conspiracy? what proof is there short of your patheticlly inaccurate article written by someone who had little or no contact with its subject, 30 years after the facts that tenuously ties together unrelated coincidences in order to formulate a conspiracy to entertain his readers. Are you familiar with Dan Daniel at all? Every Ring Detective article he wrote was barely above the standards of a grocery store tabloid. He literally made things up (i.e. the same dr. being present at Greb and Flower's death) in order to make things sound more sensational and as a result sell more magazines. How friggin gullible do you have to be??? Youve been shown to be wrong on several of the points here and yet you continue to cling to this ridiculous fantasy. WAKE UP!

[Seamus]

Benny Yanger the Tipton Slasher was the referee in the Walker v Flowers bout. He didn't die until 1956. A 1948 Miami News article made a reference to the referee having been murdered, but it's possible some confusion arose when a Chicago gangster by the name of Benjamin Zion who used the alias Benny Yanger was shot to death on the night of July 31 1928.

[slakka]

Flowers was in a number of hotly disputed decisions.

The three Greb fights and the Walker fight...

Can anyone shed light on these fights/decisions?

I believe he was floored twice by Walker.

It seems to me that perhaps Flowers is neglected by many when the roll call of MW greats is made.

Harry Greb by 1926 was unable to make 160 and give any account of himself so his title got away from him.

[Ezzard]

Thanks Slakka

boxrec seems to think Greb could have got the nod in one of the bouts with Flowers. I wondered what other people thought...or if they knew more about the bouts?

[granberry]

Thanks Slakka

boxrec seems to think Greb could have got the nod in one of the bouts with Flowers. I wondered what other people thought...or if they knew more about the bouts?

The bouts would be very difficult to score because Flowers was a very active fighter and had great endurance, the two qualities which Greb used to win. In this case Greb was downhill plus he was fighting a fighter with the exact wrong style for him at this stage of his career.

[Woller]

We rarely agree Granberry, but this time I believe that you are right on.

The good old Harry Greb was no more, and froim the news clips I have seen the two decisions were right.

Later of I read somewhere: "It is good to see a negro who knows his place"
I don´t like what I am reading but it should have been a cover story in a sports/boxing magazine i US after the Mickey Walker v Tiger Flowers fight.

I come from Denmark
We are all terribly white, but a good friend of mine as black as coal and the super-heavyweight champ of Denmark.

Woller

[granberry]

Greb was having trouble with his "good" eye by that time.