UNDERRATED CHAMPIONS!... who and why....

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 11:32

It seems to me that some champions who were outstanding have become rather underrated in the present time... some names that come to my mind are Dick Tiger, Emile Griffith and Pipino Cuevas.... Griffith and Tiger often seem overlooked by many today and people seem surprised when they look back and see the acheivements of these fighters I think.... Cuevas is another great champion who seems more remmembered today for his defeats to Hearns and Duran than his awesome peak when he quite literally broke up the best Welters in the division.
Do you agree with me?... what other champions are underrated?.... 8)

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 05 May 2005, 11:35

Luis Manuel Rodriguez..... He beat Griffith, Curtis Cokes, Benny Paret, Virgil Akins, Rubin Carter, Jesse Smith, Jose Gonzalez, Skeeter MClure, George Benton, Denny Moyer, Ace Armstrong, Carl Hubbard, Rocky Rivero, Vicente Rondon, Gomeo Brennan and a batallion of other top fighters, champs and contenders.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 11:46

enrique wrote:Luis Manuel Rodriguez..... He beat Griffith, Curtis Cokes, Benny Paret, Virgil Akins, Rubin Carter, Jesse Smith, Jose Gonzalez, Skeeter MClure, George Benton, Denny Moyer, Ace Armstrong, Carl Hubbard, Rocky Rivero, Vicente Rondon, Gomeo Brennan and a batallion of other top fighters, champs and contenders.

Agreed, judging by his fights with Griffith Luis was very close in ability to Griffith the difference being he was koed by Nino while Griffith went 1-2 with Benveuti... Luis did have an impressive run of wins as a middleweight including some points victories over Bennie Briscoe!.
Curtis Cokes is another underated welterweight champion, he actually koed Rodriguez for the vacant title in '66 and was a good boxer with a great punch who probably would have reigned for much longer had Jose Napoles not come along.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 05 May 2005, 12:01

Saoul Mamby - bad luck to be around the same time as Pryor ( or good luck not to have faced him?? ) still, a real road warrior who just seemed to go on and on.

Pedroza - See above, except it was that man Sanchez.

Alfonso Zamora - Truly awesome in his prime, but came up and against the even more awesome Zarate, who pretty much destroyed him, confidence wise.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 12:04

Vincente Saldivar, Manuel Ortiz and Joe Brown... all great champions who don't get mentioned very much I think.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 12:09

MightyWarrior wrote:Saoul Mamby - bad luck to be around the same time as Pryor ( or good luck not to have faced him?? ) still, a real road warrior who just seemed to go on and on.

Pedroza - See above, except it was that man Sanchez.

Alfonso Zamora - Truly awesome in his prime, but came up and against the even more awesome Zarate, who pretty much destroyed him, confidence wise.

Yeah, Pedrosa never really got the praise he deserved, a great box-fighter and 20 or 21 defences! these against top talented contenders too not the bumfluff 'champs' of today defend their titles against!.
Zamora ofcourse koed Pedrosa!.
Mamby was a great defensive boxer, excellent to watch for fans who enjoy seeing pure boxing skill.... gave a peak Duran a good fight which says it all!.

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 05 May 2005, 13:31

How about Freddie Miller? Hardly ever mentioned today and look at his record........wow!

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 05 May 2005, 13:43

Former World Lightweight Champin Joe 'Old Bones' Brown rarely gets a mention these days but he had a long career over 4 decades, and beat a lot of good fighters.

hanffro · Post by **hanffro** » 05 May 2005, 13:47

Jimmy Slattery, Battling Siki, Tommy Burns

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 05 May 2005, 13:55

Of recent times Marlon Starling seems a bit of a forgotten man, but he was a very good fighter.

Alex · Post by **Alex** » 05 May 2005, 14:10

Marcel Cerdan: deserved a shot at the world title MUCH sooner in his career. Very unlucky in losing his title to a dislocated shoulder. And of course tragically denied the chance of winning it back. I would give him a chance against any middleweight of any era.

Marcel Thil: great fighter. Held his title for 6 years with 9 successful defences, beat the best middleweights of his era (European light heavyweight champ, though never more than a middle), yet he is largely ignored as he wasn't American.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 14:19

KOJOE90 wrote:Former World Lightweight Champin Joe 'Old Bones' Brown rarely gets a mention these days but he had a long career over 4 decades, and beat a lot of good fighters.

Brown is definately underrated, great boxer who could also punch he was already a veteran when he got his title shot and he won the title one-handed after breaking his right hand early on in the fight with a punch that floored Wallace Smith in the 3rd.... he didn't throw another right hand till the 13th round! yet still won the fight handily with his great jab.
Articles I've read on Brown from the time compare him in skill and longevity to Ray Robinson and Archie Moore.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 05 May 2005, 14:21

The whole spectrum of the flyweight division seems to be non-existant to the casual Western fan. Warriors like Rafael Orono, Santos Laciar and Gilberto Roman rarely get a mention.

I was watching a great fight between Roberto Vasquez and Beibis Mendoza the other night. A great fight that got me thinking how many great fights from those weights I haven't seen.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 14:24

enrique wrote:How about Freddie Miller? Hardly ever mentioned today and look at his record........wow!

Miller has an awesome record, fought them all and was stopped just 1 time in 245 contests and that being the last one!.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 14:28

Lou Brouliard is another who is seemingly forgotten today... yet won world titles at two weights and was from what I've read robbed twice against Marcel Thil when they fought for the middleweight title... Thil claiming he 'd been fouled twice.
Also Harold Johnson another fighter who doesn't get mentioned very often... was probably the 2nd best Lightheavyweight throughout the 50s!.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 05 May 2005, 14:42

silkov wrote:Also Harold Johnson another fighter who doesn't get mentioned very often... was probably the 2nd best Lightheavyweight throughout the 50s!.

Just beat me to it.

I seem to recall Johnson had a wonderfull physique as well.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 14:55

KOJOE90 wrote:
silkov wrote:Also Harold Johnson another fighter who doesn't get mentioned very often... was probably the 2nd best Lightheavyweight throughout the 50s!.
Just beat me to it.

I seem to recall Johnson had a wonderfull physique as well.

Johnson was out-boxing Moore in their title fight till Archie suddenly pulled out his punch and koed Harold in the 14th I think it was.
Shame he didn't hang onto the title for longer there was actually talk of Johnson going for the heavyweight crown when he was champ but his career just petered out after his loss to Pastrano.

JC · Post by JC » 05 May 2005, 15:09

KOJOE90 wrote:
silkov wrote:Also Harold Johnson another fighter who doesn't get mentioned very often... was probably the 2nd best Lightheavyweight throughout the 50s!.
Just beat me to it.

I seem to recall Johnson had a wonderfull physique as well.

He looks pretty formidable

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 05 May 2005, 15:15

How about Mike McCallum??? He was very UNDERRATED

.This Jamaican probably was the most underrated champion that I have ever seen

Others that come to my mind: Ernesto Marcel, Lupe Pintor, Larry Holmes, and Ezzard Charles

Alex · Post by **Alex** » 05 May 2005, 15:41

Manos de Oro wrote:The whole spectrum of the flyweight division seems to be non-existant to the casual Western fan.

The flyweight division is also often over looked by modern fans looking at the all time greats, as there are so few flyweights about today. Many people are ignorant of the fact that in the early twentieth century this was one of the most competitive weight divisions and produced some of the most skillful boxers of any era.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 15:58

Larry Holmes was very underrated and generally badly treated during his reign, the way he was treated in the run up to the Cooney bout was a scandal really..... when I watch his fights now I see one of the best Heavyweights of all time... total class.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 05 May 2005, 17:59

Floyd Patterson.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 May 2005, 18:45

Manos de Oro wrote:The whole spectrum of the flyweight division seems to be non-existant to the casual Western fan. Warriors like Rafael Orono, Santos Laciar and Gilberto Roman rarely get a mention.

I was watching a great fight between Roberto Vasquez and Beibis Mendoza the other night. A great fight that got me thinking how many great fights from those weights I haven't seen.

Very true, some of the greatest fighters have been at the lower weights... I have some great fights of flyweight greats such as Pone Kingpetch, Fighting HARADA, Chartai Chinoi, Pascuel Perez.... Chinois first fight with Effren Torres is one of the best fights I've seen as are Kingpetch vs Harada 1 and 2....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 May 2005, 05:30

J-C wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:
silkov wrote:Also Harold Johnson another fighter who doesn't get mentioned very often... was probably the 2nd best Lightheavyweight throughout the 50s!.
Just beat me to it.

I seem to recall Johnson had a wonderfull physique as well.

He looks pretty formidable

Looks in a damned sight better shape than Louis there. That must have been taken when Louis was getting on a bit, because he looks pretty porky.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 06 May 2005, 05:50

silkov wrote:
Manos de Oro wrote:The whole spectrum of the flyweight division seems to be non-existant to the casual Western fan. Warriors like Rafael Orono, Santos Laciar and Gilberto Roman rarely get a mention.

I was watching a great fight between Roberto Vasquez and Beibis Mendoza the other night. A great fight that got me thinking how many great fights from those weights I haven't seen.
Very true, some of the greatest fighters have been at the lower weights... I have some great fights of flyweight greats such as Pone Kingpetch, Fighting HARADA, Chartai Chinoi, Pascuel Perez.... Chinois first fight with Effren Torres is one of the best fights I've seen as are Kingpetch vs Harada 1 and 2....

Add Hilario Zapata to that list - he must have some sort of record for various world flyweight defences I'd guess?

Miguel "Happy" Lora was an excellent champ - only about three years at the top but I remember him as being pretty unbeatable for awhile.