Which Fights Do You Think Were Fixed or Thrown?

[keithmoonhangover]

There were some murmurings about a fix after Fenech - Nelson 1. With Don King and his boyfriend Sulaiman involved you could never tell wtf was going on. The rumour got back to King who rightly explained that if there was going to be a fix it would have gone in Fenech's favour rather than a draw. Fair enough

Yes. 100%. The result was fixed. Much like the Chavez - Whitaker.

Anyone else think that Richard Steele was on the Don King payroll for Chavez - Taylor I

You are misusing the term "fix".

In a fixed fight the loser has been paid to lose deliberately so that the parties involved can bet on the fight being sure of the result. Chavez Whitaker was corrupt judges if anything. Just as Chavez/Taylor would be a corrupt referee by your reasoning, but not a fix.

If the loser hasn't been paid off, even if you have the judges in your pocket, there is still the possibility of a knockout meaning the result is not certain.

You're wrong. A fix is when the outcome of something has been set or fixed before or during the fight. Also it does not mean that someone has been paid.

If the judges conspire to make the result a draw or a win for a certain fighter then that isa fixed result.

[Syntax Error]

Thrown:-

1) Sinan Samil Sam -v- JULIUS FRANCIS

2) Mike Tyson -v- BRUCE SELDON

Can't really come up with any fixes as it is hard to prove such things, although there is something fishy about Lennox Lewis -v- Evander Holyfield 1.

[JC]

Yes. 100%. The result was fixed. Much like the Chavez - Whitaker.

Anyone else think that Richard Steele was on the Don King payroll for Chavez - Taylor I

You are misusing the term "fix".

In a fixed fight the loser has been paid to lose deliberately so that the parties involved can bet on the fight being sure of the result. Chavez Whitaker was corrupt judges if anything. Just as Chavez/Taylor would be a corrupt referee by your reasoning, but not a fix.

If the loser hasn't been paid off, even if you have the judges in your pocket, there is still the possibility of a knockout meaning the result is not certain.

You're wrong. A fix is when the outcome of something has been set or fixed before or during the fight. Also it does not mean that someone has been paid.

If the judges conspire to make the result a draw or a win for a certain fighter then that isa fixed result.

So are you saying the someone presumably (Don King and WBC) specifically wanted to make the fight a draw? I'd be interested to know why they would do this rather than a Chavez win.

Is it not far more likely that the judges (appointed by the WBC) were scoring favourably for the home fighter which happened to make the fight a draw? Therefore a robbery rather than fix.

With regards to the meaning of fix

A fix is when the outcome of something has been set or fixed before or during the fight. Also it does not mean that someone has been paid.

How can a outcome be 100% predetermined without one or both fighter being in on it? As I have said there is a difference between corrupt officials who can do everything within their power to ensure one fighter wins and a paid-off fighter who can 100% ensure a certain result happens.

[keithmoonhangover]

You are misusing the term "fix".

In a fixed fight the loser has been paid to lose deliberately so that the parties involved can bet on the fight being sure of the result. Chavez Whitaker was corrupt judges if anything. Just as Chavez/Taylor would be a corrupt referee by your reasoning, but not a fix.

If the loser hasn't been paid off, even if you have the judges in your pocket, there is still the possibility of a knockout meaning the result is not certain.

You're wrong. A fix is when the outcome of something has been set or fixed before or during the fight. Also it does not mean that someone has been paid.

If the judges conspire to make the result a draw or a win for a certain fighter then that isa fixed result.

So are you saying the someone presumably (Don King and WBC) specifically wanted to make the fight a draw? I'd be interested to know why they would do this rather than a Chavez win.

Is it not far more likely that the judges (appointed by the WBC) were scoring favourably for the home fighter which happened to make the fight a draw? Therefore a robbery rather than fix.

With regards to the meaning of fix

A fix is when the outcome of something has been set or fixed before or during the fight. Also it does not mean that someone has been paid.

How can a outcome be 100% predetermined without one or both fighter being in on it? As I have said there is a difference between corrupt officials who can do everything within their power to ensure one fighter wins and a paid-off fighter who can 100% ensure a certain result happens.

I never said 100%.

[BoxBuzz]

Seldon vs Tyson and Ali vs Liston are fights that may well have been "thrown" by the loser, with no real fix in play. Other than the psychological state of the loser.

Now dig into the files of Primo Carnera and you will indeed find some fights that were bought and paid for.

[Norm]

For me, Ali vs Spinks I didn't pass the smell test. If I remember right, the Louisville Lip didn't talk his usual game prior to the bout and was accompanied into the ring with a Charlie Chaplin impersonator. It seemed rematch based when Spinks forfeited the title rather than meet mandatory Ken Norton.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That was a ridiculous amount of punishment to absorb for a fixed fight. Spinks must have landed 500 flush power shots. Ordinarily a fixed fight wouldn't involve a long and brutal drubbing. Tyson vs Seldon or Stewart may have just been two terrified men, but they, imo, are easier to make a case for than a 45 minute beating.

[bollox]

That was a ridiculous amount of punishment to absorb for a fixed fight. Spinks must have landed 500 flush power shots. Ordinarily a fixed fight wouldn't involve a long and brutal drubbing. Tyson vs Seldon or Stewart may have just been two terrified men, but they, imo, are easier to make a case for than a 45 minute beating.

The fight was fixed and that's all there is to it

[keithmoonhangover]

Ray Robinson said that he got more money for the rematch if he lost his title.

[The Great John L]

Foreman-Moorer: When you get down to it and start digging into how much money Bob Arum was throwing around to keep the Foreman gravy train rolling along and then look at how ridiculous the KO was its pretty obvious to me. Foreman nuthuggers who think his power was just ungodly will get pissed when you bring this but those are just the type of people Foreman and Arum were taking advantage of.

Greb-Tunney 2

Paulie Ayala had about three or four fights fixed in his favor in a row and around the same time Morales had a couple also.

Yes Foreman's massive power didn't seem to be able to stop Stewart, a guy who got stopped pretty easily by just about every other top HW he fought. He also failed to dent other iron chinned warriors like Savarese, Grimsley and of course Morrison. George was an amazing marketer and match maker, generating tens of millions beating a long list of hand picked losers and retreads leading to his fight with Holyfiled. And yes he did perform well against Holyfield, although Holy was noted for fighting to the level of his competition.

[Seamus]

The referee and the judges tried to fix Starling v Breland I so Marlon improvised.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Foreman-Moorer: When you get down to it and start digging into how much money Bob Arum was throwing around to keep the Foreman gravy train rolling along and then look at how ridiculous the KO was its pretty obvious to me. Foreman nuthuggers who think his power was just ungodly will get pissed when you bring this but those are just the type of people Foreman and Arum were taking advantage of.

Greb-Tunney 2

Paulie Ayala had about three or four fights fixed in his favor in a row and around the same time Morales had a couple also.

Yes Foreman's massive power didn't seem to be able to stop Stewart, a guy who got stopped pretty easily by just about every other top HW he fought. He also failed to dent other iron chinned warriors like Savarese, Grimsley and of course Morrison. George was an amazing marketer and match maker, generating tens of millions beating a long list of hand picked losers and retreads leading to his fight with Holyfiled. And yes he did perform well against Holyfield, although Holy was noted for fighting to the level of his competition.

No breaks for fighting well into your forties, I see. Boxing is positively loaded with stories along the lines of, "Fighter X couldn't stop him, yet he stops this guy. Strange." Do we not call this sport, "The Theater Of The Unexpected," after all? Are they all fixes, because if so, we can start with Ali requiring illegal intervention to get by Cooper in one fight, & then beating Liston in his very next bout --- even after being blinded. LOL.

Maybe I'm a cynic, but it seems to me you are at least somewhat entitled to be fighting a Savarese or a Grimsley when you are damn near fvcking 50 years of age.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Foreman-Moorer: When you get down to it and start digging into how much money Bob Arum was throwing around to keep the Foreman gravy train rolling along and then look at how ridiculous the KO was its pretty obvious to me. Foreman nuthuggers who think his power was just ungodly will get pissed when you bring this but those are just the type of people Foreman and Arum were taking advantage of.

Greb-Tunney 2

Paulie Ayala had about three or four fights fixed in his favor in a row and around the same time Morales had a couple also.

Yes Foreman's massive power didn't seem to be able to stop Stewart, a guy who got stopped pretty easily by just about every other top HW he fought. He also failed to dent other iron chinned warriors like Savarese, Grimsley and of course Morrison. George was an amazing marketer and match maker, generating tens of millions beating a long list of hand picked losers and retreads leading to his fight with Holyfiled. And yes he did perform well against Holyfield, although Holy was noted for fighting to the level of his competition.

Foreman sent Stewart crashing to the canvas twice and changed how he was fighting.

[BoxBuzz]

Foreman-Moorer: When you get down to it and start digging into how much money Bob Arum was throwing around to keep the Foreman gravy train rolling along and then look at how ridiculous the KO was its pretty obvious to me. Foreman nuthuggers who think his power was just ungodly will get pissed when you bring this but those are just the type of people Foreman and Arum were taking advantage of.

Greb-Tunney 2

Paulie Ayala had about three or four fights fixed in his favor in a row and around the same time Morales had a couple also.

Yes Foreman's massive power didn't seem to be able to stop Stewart, a guy who got stopped pretty easily by just about every other top HW he fought. He also failed to dent other iron chinned warriors like Savarese, Grimsley and of course Morrison. George was an amazing marketer and match maker, generating tens of millions beating a long list of hand picked losers and retreads leading to his fight with Holyfiled. And yes he did perform well against Holyfield, although Holy was noted for fighting to the level of his competition.

Foreman sent Stewart crashing to the canvas twice and changed how he was fighting.

Thanks for setting the record straight on that strange comment.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Message boards are the home of the bizarre. But sometimes something is beyond an opinion, it's downright frightening. Questioning George foreman's power fits that bill. He could still shatter someones face if they stood still. I'd bet on him against Arreola tomorrow night.

[gilgamesh]

Message boards are the home of the bizarre. But sometimes something is beyond an opinion, it's downright frightening. Questioning George foreman's power fits that bill. He could still shatter someones face if they stood still. I'd bet on him against Arreola tomorrow night.

Agreed, at least as far as for sure he has knockout power. 76 wins, 68 knockouts. Made Joe Frazier and Ken Norton look like children against him. Hell yeah he could crack, and I'm sure still if he's punching at you. You'd best be ducking.

[The Great John L]

Foreman-Moorer: When you get down to it and start digging into how much money Bob Arum was throwing around to keep the Foreman gravy train rolling along and then look at how ridiculous the KO was its pretty obvious to me. Foreman nuthuggers who think his power was just ungodly will get pissed when you bring this but those are just the type of people Foreman and Arum were taking advantage of.

Greb-Tunney 2

Paulie Ayala had about three or four fights fixed in his favor in a row and around the same time Morales had a couple also.

Yes Foreman's massive power didn't seem to be able to stop Stewart, a guy who got stopped pretty easily by just about every other top HW he fought. He also failed to dent other iron chinned warriors like Savarese, Grimsley and of course Morrison. George was an amazing marketer and match maker, generating tens of millions beating a long list of hand picked losers and retreads leading to his fight with Holyfiled. And yes he did perform well against Holyfield, although Holy was noted for fighting to the level of his competition.

Foreman sent Stewart crashing to the canvas twice and changed how he was fighting.

Stewart finished the fight on his feet and administered a frightful beating to Foreman who in turn hammered Stewart but was unable to stop him. It was an exciting slugfest, but showed that Foreman was unable to stop Stewart unlike most of the other top HWs that Stewart fought.

Yes George showed a great deal for man of his age, but KOing Lakusta, Hitz and company was similar to Lamar Clark's KO string and hardly proved that he was a deadly puncher. The only evidence of massive power during his second career was his massive shot against Moorer.

If there was a pattern of massive power shown by Big George against competant opposition during his second career please feel free to give some examples.

[The Great John L]

Message boards are the home of the bizarre. But sometimes something is beyond an opinion, it's downright frightening. Questioning George foreman's power fits that bill. He could still shatter someones face if they stood still. I'd bet on him against Arreola tomorrow night.

Yes George could still punch, but there is NO evidence in his second career of massive power against quality opposition. You probably also thought Sam Peter was a massive puncher after his KO of Williams.

KOing a string of totmato cans and washed up has beens was no different than the path that most young HWs take. And as with most young HWs, Old George's power looked much less impressive when he finally had to fight a few competant opponents.

I'm sorry if you disagree, but as I said, please provide a few examples of this massive power against quality opponents. It's hardly a bizzare comment. What's more bizarre is how little it takes to impress people once a fighter has a reputation. Even when the reputation is more than a decade old.

[The Great John L]

Oh yeah, add Foreman-Cooper to the list of starnge endings.

And I do appologize if this "bizzare" comment upsets the Foreman zombies.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Message boards are the home of the bizarre. But sometimes something is beyond an opinion, it's downright frightening. Questioning George foreman's power fits that bill. He could still shatter someones face if they stood still. I'd bet on him against Arreola tomorrow night.

Yes George could still punch, but there is NO evidence in his second career of massive power against quality opposition. You probably also thought Sam Peter was a massive puncher after his KO of Williams.

KOing a string of totmato cans and washed up has beens was no different than the path that most young HWs take. And as with most young HWs, Old George's power looked much less impressive when he finally had to fight a few competant opponents.

I'm sorry if you disagree, but as I said, please provide a few examples of this massive power against quality opponents. It's hardly a bizzare comment. What's more bizarre is how little it takes to impress people once a fighter has a reputation. Even when the reputation is more than a decade old.

Sam Peter? WTF are you even talking about? The KO of Michael Moorer that you so eloquently call a fix is plenty of proof of the Old mans power. Old George had an issue with being slow and finding a home for his punches, he was nearly 50 years old.

Nobody said he had the same power as he did in his youth. This is a situation where watching him destroy guys like Rodrigues & Cooney show he can still bang plenty. He didn't face many quality opponents, Holyfield felt his strength. This rage filled tirade is almost as bizarre as your premise.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Oh yeah, add Foreman-Cooper to the list of starnge endings.

And I do appologize if this "bizzare" comment upsets the Foreman zombies.

No worries, your post made me really hard. The only one upset is you. You could call his power overrated in his second career without generating hysterical laughter. Calling Foreman/Moorer a fix is just plain stupid. Sorry if that offends you, but it's straight up retarded.

[The Great John L]

Sam Peter? WTF are you even talking about? The KO of Michael Moorer that you so eloquently call a fix is plenty of proof of the Old mans power. Old George had an issue with being slow and finding a home for his punches, he was nearly 50 years old.

Nobody said he had the same power as he did in his youth. This is a situation where watching him destroy guys like Rodrigues & Cooney ahow he can still bang plenty. He didn't face many quality opponents, Holyfield felt his strength. This rage filled tirade is almost as bizarre as your premise.

I mentioned Sam Peter merely as an example of another big, slow, over-hyped guy with an unjustified reputation as a "massive" puncher. I'm sorry if that example was beyond you.

Moorer is one example, and no one would really consider his chin to be exactly noteworthy. Rodrigues and Cooney!? You probably aren't aware of the fact that Cooney had only 2 fights in the previous 5 years of less than 6 rounds, and had been stopped by a LH in his previos fight 2 1/2 years earlier.

I guess Rodriguess is about all you have left.

He didn't face many quality opponents...

I had to repeat that one again, because that's exactly my point. No Page, Tubbs, Spoon, Bone, Ruddock, Bruno, Williams, etc. Because they would have kicked his ass.

Thanks for making my case for me. The prosecution rests.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Sam Peter? WTF are you even talking about? The KO of Michael Moorer that you so eloquently call a fix is plenty of proof of the Old mans power. Old George had an issue with being slow and finding a home for his punches, he was nearly 50 years old.

Nobody said he had the same power as he did in his youth. This is a situation where watching him destroy guys like Rodrigues & Cooney ahow he can still bang plenty. He didn't face many quality opponents, Holyfield felt his strength. This rage filled tirade is almost as bizarre as your premise.

I mentioned Sam Peter merely as an example of another big, slow, over-hyped guy with an unjustified reputation as a "massive" puncher. I'm sorry if that example was beyond you.

Moorer is one example, and no one would really consider his chin to be exactly noteworthy. Rodrigues and Cooney!? You probably aren't aware of the fact that Cooney had only 2 fights in the previous 5 years of less than 6 rounds, and had been stopped by a LH in his previos fight 2 1/2 years earlier.

I guess Rodriguess is about all you have left.

He didn't face many quality opponents...

I had to repeat that one again, because that's exactly my point. No Page, Tubbs, Spoon, Bone, Ruddock, Bruno, Williams, etc. Because they would have kicked his ass.

Thanks for making my case for me. The prosecution rests.

You get more nonsensical with every post. What makes you so sure that I love Sam Peter?

You should take a few deep breathes and go watch George lower the boom on Moorer again so you can come up with a new conspiracy theory that isn't quite so ridiculous.

The core of your buffoonery is calling that fight a fix. That ONE example is the one you used in this thread. I know you want to go off in a different direction and pretend you didn't say it. But that's what everyone is laughing at you for. I never called Cooney or Rodrgiues quality, you've lost your mind.

[The Great John L]

What makes you so sure that I love Sam Peter?

Where did I say that?

I never called Cooney or Rodrgiues quality, you've lost your mind.

I'm sorry, but you served them up when I asked for examples of "quality" guys that Old George showed "massive" power against. Perhaps you should reread your own post.

Your recurring insults are rather disconcerting and clearly show confussion on your part, as do your comments that I quoted above. I can only surmise that your emotions have impaired your judgement and reading comprehension.

If you would care to debate, I'm game, but I fear you're not up to the task in your present condition.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

What makes you so sure that I love Sam Peter?

Where did I say that?

I never called Cooney or Rodrgiues quality, you've lost your mind.

I'm sorry, but you served them up when I asked for examples of "quality" guys that Old George showed "massive" power against. Perhaps you should reread your own post.

Your recurring insults are rather disconcerting and clearly show confussion on your part, as do your comments that I quoted above. I can only surmise that your emotions have impaired your judgement and reading comprehension.

If you would care to debate, I'm game, but I fear you're not up to the task in your present condition.

You're the one that turned this into insults. What do you want to debate? You're in the middle of a hissy fit, it would be like debating a crack addict in need of a fix.

Your current hysteria is leading to me reading things like confussion. That could be infringing on my reading comprehension.

Again with the massive power comment. What does that have to do with Foreman/Moorer being fixed? Did you not read where I said Old George's power could be called overrated? Or are you skipping over that so you can change around every word I say?

Sam Peter, Adilson Rodrigues, Gerry Cooney, John L Sullivan and your therapist aside, calling Foreman/Moorer a fix is a joke of the highest order. You certainly aren't game to debate that. You invent something new to avoid it with every post.