Chopping Right wrote:I think you have to avoid conclusions based purely on size when assessing fighters from different eras. Athletes are bigger these days, that's a fact. You can only go on styles and their comparative success in their own era.
Best Heavyweight of all time
Sorry, but that is not what the first message on this thread asked us to do. Please read it again.Chopping Right wrote:I think you have to avoid conclusions based purely on size when assessing fighters from different eras. Athletes are bigger these days, that's a fact. You can only go on styles and their comparative success in their own era.
I guess it all depends on how you define greatness. Even once you define it, its still a dificult question. Here are my picks, though the order could be shuffled some. If any old timers get t'ed off about who I pick or don't pick, my apologies. My opinion is based on my limited experience as an amatuer boxer, books, the opinions passed on to me by my elders, and a whole lot of espn classic. All these picks are based on these fighters in their prime.
1. Marciano - gotta give the guy his props for being undefeated. Not a real heavy by todays standards, but I think he would be strong enough to compete with todays heavies none the less. Beat an old Joe Louis, but might have actually beat a prime louis with a similar right hand to the one that schmelling beat louis with. Difficult style I think for Ali as well. Not the most visually apealing fighter, or the most athletically gifted, but I'd venture to say that he would be tough against just about any heavy.Oh yeah, and possibly the most devastating right hand ever the "susie Q"
2. Joe Louis - more title defenses than anyone else in history. Good speed, good skills, devastating puncher. Possible weakness getting hit with big right hands. Got outboxed by Billy Conn, who was a middle weight, as well.
3.Jack Dempsey - another undersized heavy by todays standards, but he destroyed Jess Willard,who beat jack johnson and was like 6'6 and 260.
Dempsey had speed, agility, strength, and better defense than he is credited for. He was great at giving and punching from angles and in his prime had a work rate/punch count in the ring that would make todays middle weights dizzy. It was not uncommon for Jack to put together ten and twelve punch combinations. He had alot of guts was durable and had a solid chin. Oh yeah, and did I mention he had (literally)bone crushing one punch knockout power in either hand. I think he would have had a good chance of beating anyone else on this list.
4.Evander Holyfield - four time world champ who beat virtually every name in his era. Great fighter to watch from an entertainment standpoint. But, on a given night he was also a very good technical fighter as well. Strong with a great chin a ton of heart, stamina, and over all balanced sound fundamental boxing skills. Holyfield at his best would have ate up the heavies of the seventies IMO. Probably gives marciano a tough fight to, as his style early on was similar to ezzard charles who gave rocky trouble. Possibly gets beat by several all time greats, but I think he would be competitive with most if not all. Evander also may be the best cruiser of all time
5. Sonny Liston - when he wasn't lying about his age or throwing fights. Crazy reach, strong, devistating power, solid boxing skills, good speed. Liston makes the list solely because on a given night he could beat at least two of the guys mentioned above.
6. Ali - three time champ, possibly the most popular fighter of all time. For those reasons alone he makes the list. He also has wins on his record over an old Liston, even if the fights were possible set ups, so it doesn't seem right to list Liston and not Ali. That said, I think Louis would walk through Ali. I think that Marciano, Dempsey, and Holyfield would all beat Ali as well. Styles make fights. Ali hade great natural talent and came along during an era perfectly suited for him. Honestly, Joe frazier was a midget(by heavy weight standards) who couldn't cut off the ring and who's biggest and most oftenly used weapon was a left hook. Ali who for the most part could only throw punches while moving in one direction naturally moved to his left(away from joe's hook) and was tall, rangy and fast, the fact that frazier gave Ali trouble and in fact beat him once ought to tell you something. Ken Norton gave Ali fits.
1. Marciano - gotta give the guy his props for being undefeated. Not a real heavy by todays standards, but I think he would be strong enough to compete with todays heavies none the less. Beat an old Joe Louis, but might have actually beat a prime louis with a similar right hand to the one that schmelling beat louis with. Difficult style I think for Ali as well. Not the most visually apealing fighter, or the most athletically gifted, but I'd venture to say that he would be tough against just about any heavy.Oh yeah, and possibly the most devastating right hand ever the "susie Q"
2. Joe Louis - more title defenses than anyone else in history. Good speed, good skills, devastating puncher. Possible weakness getting hit with big right hands. Got outboxed by Billy Conn, who was a middle weight, as well.
3.Jack Dempsey - another undersized heavy by todays standards, but he destroyed Jess Willard,who beat jack johnson and was like 6'6 and 260.
Dempsey had speed, agility, strength, and better defense than he is credited for. He was great at giving and punching from angles and in his prime had a work rate/punch count in the ring that would make todays middle weights dizzy. It was not uncommon for Jack to put together ten and twelve punch combinations. He had alot of guts was durable and had a solid chin. Oh yeah, and did I mention he had (literally)bone crushing one punch knockout power in either hand. I think he would have had a good chance of beating anyone else on this list.
4.Evander Holyfield - four time world champ who beat virtually every name in his era. Great fighter to watch from an entertainment standpoint. But, on a given night he was also a very good technical fighter as well. Strong with a great chin a ton of heart, stamina, and over all balanced sound fundamental boxing skills. Holyfield at his best would have ate up the heavies of the seventies IMO. Probably gives marciano a tough fight to, as his style early on was similar to ezzard charles who gave rocky trouble. Possibly gets beat by several all time greats, but I think he would be competitive with most if not all. Evander also may be the best cruiser of all time
5. Sonny Liston - when he wasn't lying about his age or throwing fights. Crazy reach, strong, devistating power, solid boxing skills, good speed. Liston makes the list solely because on a given night he could beat at least two of the guys mentioned above.
6. Ali - three time champ, possibly the most popular fighter of all time. For those reasons alone he makes the list. He also has wins on his record over an old Liston, even if the fights were possible set ups, so it doesn't seem right to list Liston and not Ali. That said, I think Louis would walk through Ali. I think that Marciano, Dempsey, and Holyfield would all beat Ali as well. Styles make fights. Ali hade great natural talent and came along during an era perfectly suited for him. Honestly, Joe frazier was a midget(by heavy weight standards) who couldn't cut off the ring and who's biggest and most oftenly used weapon was a left hook. Ali who for the most part could only throw punches while moving in one direction naturally moved to his left(away from joe's hook) and was tall, rangy and fast, the fact that frazier gave Ali trouble and in fact beat him once ought to tell you something. Ken Norton gave Ali fits.
OK you did not read what I said, I said which fighter would beat any other fighter I did not say anything about titles or popularity.chance wrote: 6. Ali - three time champ, possibly the most popular fighter of all time. For those reasons alone he makes the list. He also has wins on his record over an old Liston, even if the fights were possible set ups, so it doesn't seem right to list Liston and not Ali. That said, I think Louis would walk through Ali. I think that Marciano, Dempsey, and Holyfield would all beat Ali as well. Styles make fights. Ali hade great natural talent and came along during an era perfectly suited for him. Honestly, Joe frazier was a midget(by heavy weight standards) who couldn't cut off the ring and who's biggest and most oftenly used weapon was a left hook. Ali who for the most part could only throw punches while moving in one direction naturally moved to his left(away from joe's hook) and was tall, rangy and fast, the fact that frazier gave Ali trouble and in fact beat him once ought to tell you something. Ken Norton gave Ali fits.
you're right grimm, but all I was trying to point out was that Ali makes most ATG lists because of those things. Also because he has wins over Liston I thought it apropriate to add him if I was going to include liston. I think I went on to point out who I thought would beat who rather clearly, but in some cases that is a very tough question. You're right though, I did stray from the intent of the question some with my rankings, so to clarify:
Marciano beats Ali, also probably beats Holyfield but thats close. I think he would have had a good chance at a prime Louis as well I'm about sixty forty that he loses to Liston in a good fight, and wouldn't beat dempsey.
Louis beats Ali, Liston, and Holy, but might lose to marciano or dempsey, but its close.
Dempsey beats rocky and Ali, but it would be close against Louis( maybe 60-40 jack) and liston might have enough to beat him, cant count out holy either but dempsey probably wins the latter.
A good holyfield beats Ali and a wide assortment of other heavyweights from multiple eras but more than anything makes the list because he would be competitive against most if not all of these guys.
Liston has a shot to beat marciano or louis, and beats Holyfield. I think he beats Ali without the outside factors as well.
Ali loses to Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Holyfield, but has questionable wins over liston, and beat an assortment of guys that most people think were great.
Marciano beats Ali, also probably beats Holyfield but thats close. I think he would have had a good chance at a prime Louis as well I'm about sixty forty that he loses to Liston in a good fight, and wouldn't beat dempsey.
Louis beats Ali, Liston, and Holy, but might lose to marciano or dempsey, but its close.
Dempsey beats rocky and Ali, but it would be close against Louis( maybe 60-40 jack) and liston might have enough to beat him, cant count out holy either but dempsey probably wins the latter.
A good holyfield beats Ali and a wide assortment of other heavyweights from multiple eras but more than anything makes the list because he would be competitive against most if not all of these guys.
Liston has a shot to beat marciano or louis, and beats Holyfield. I think he beats Ali without the outside factors as well.
Ali loses to Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Holyfield, but has questionable wins over liston, and beat an assortment of guys that most people think were great.
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Syntax Error
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Any one who watched films of Ali fight knows the man bailed out high and always moved to his left. Doing so makes you very easy to hit with a good right hand. Marciano could cut of the ring and had one of the best right hands in boxing. Granted Ali was the bigger faster man, and he had a splended sense of range and timing. But in the end I don't think he had the power to stop Marciano, and he would give up a lot of his reach advantage because he jabbed off his front foot, while marciano kept his weight back on his right foot. Basic fundementals folks. Would have been a great fight to watch though. Both men had alot of heart. Its just a case of styles make a fight. In this case Marcianos style and power would probably make up for his physical inequities.Syntax Error wrote:I couldn't imagine Ali losing to Dempsey or Marciano. Dempsey particularly, was a crude slugger who Ali would have gobbled up & laughed at.
As for Dempsey, he was not the crude slugger he is made out to be, he had some boxing skills too. There is such a thing as being agressive with skills. He beats Ali because unlike the heavies of Ali's era, he could cut the ring off very effectively. He also had the speed and ring agility to run ali down and force him into the ropes. Unlike Foreman, Dempsey could keep up a furious work rate long enough to beat Ali and would punch from angles and keep his head moving(thats important because Ali would grab fighters by the head when he was on the ropes). If Ali tried to rope a dope Dempsey he would be in for some broken bones. I don't think Ali had enough to hurt Dempsey or Marciano, that said Ali cut a lot of fighters, and might have stpped them on cuts.
Think about the guys Ali had trouble with (ie Ken Norton a guy who kept his weight back and had a good right hand but was otherwise unspectacular) Dempsey but in particular marciano kept their weight back and had huge right hands and a busier work rate than Norton, So if you can't imagine Ali losing to these guys just watch the Norton fights and imagine a busier more devastating Norton.Styles make fights.