Hypothetical Match-up: Mike Tyson vs James Toney

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I doubt it, Buster wasn't in that bad of a way. But you're right, Tyson would always have the ability to land a wing and prayer. Douglas taking 8 or 9 out of 10 is more realistic than my original statement.

He was down for more than ten seconds mate, he was hurt badly. I just think if Tyson was in shape, moving his head and had a real trainer in the corner, Buster would have gone down earlier in the fight and Tyson would have had the stamina to finish him.

He was down for the referees count, his eyes were alert the whole time. But he most certainly was hurt. I don't think Tyson was particularly out of shape for that fight. He just ran into a better man.

[Crease]

A prime Tyson stops a prime Toney, regardless of what weight Toney comes in at.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I wonder how out-of-shape one can be when they have a six-pack & perfect musculature definition. Jesus H. Christ, people talk about Tyson in the Douglas fight as though he was carrying an extra ten kilos. How many of the commentary crew said anything along the lines of, "Gee, Mike sure looks soft tonight," as he entered the ring in Tokyo?

Excuses, excuses.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Hey Dave,

Count me as one of those idiots who think JBD at his best is always a bit of a puzzle for Mike. He had a good style to give Mike fits.....and according to the video documentation, he did just that. Yep Mike was under trained, and did not take his opponent seriously...and he had clowns surrounding him that night...but to some degree that's who Tyson was. So you can't separate the fighter from his habits and his personality. JBD had another "essential key" to beating Tyson. He COULD NOT be psyched on that night. And if you study his style you'd see that he had some other "keys" going his way in that fight.

Overall though, yes Mike at his best would likely have defeated JBD....because even if Mike would have been taking a points beating up until he got to Buster, I'm pretty sure once Douglas was downed by Mike (at his best), James would not likely have been able to weather a prime Tyson storm.

But the betting odds were not a reflection of reality by any stretch. And he always had a chance...a good chance as a matter of fact.

*Raises hand*, that Buster beats any version of Tyson. People must forget what a one sided ass whipping that was.

Tyson would brutalize Toney though. James was tough so he would suffer a lot of punishment before it got stopped. But it certainly wouldn't be a war. A prime Tyson at heavyweight,the same one that lost Buster, may have been enough to keep Toney in shape and at 175 or Cruiser.

I'm not sure. Mike landed that uppercut that put Douglas down at the end of the 8th. I didn't think he was going to get up from that. I think if that punch landed 30 seconds earlier, Mike could have stopped him.

At the same time, I was ready to score that eighth round 10-8 for Douglas before the knockdown. Tyson got his ass handed to him from bell-to-bell. It's astonishing.

[keithmoonhangover]

I wonder how out-of-shape one can be when they have a six-pack & perfect musculature definition. Jesus H. Christ, people talk about Tyson in the Douglas fight as though he was carrying an extra ten kilos. How many of the commentary crew said anything along the lines of, "Gee, Mike sure looks soft tonight," as he entered the ring in Tokyo?

Excuses, excuses.

The most important muscle is the brain and if that's not in shape, then the fighter is in big trouble. That was the case for Tyson in the Douglas fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Firstly, that was the case for a million fighters, in a million fights. Tyson faced nothing exceptional going into that fight so many before him havent done.

Secondly, that was not my bone of contention to start with. Tyson fanatics declare him in poor physical shape, and I call overwhelming bullshit on that.

[crusader]

Douglas's mother died three weeks before the fight and the mother of his child was in the hospital with a serious illness; if such heartbreaking events had not occured so close to the fight he probably would have won more convincingly.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Indeed, now those are traumatic events. Getting paid millions to smash a man in the face when you're having issues with your women? I call that awesome. Most of us have to drum up a bar fight.

Then guys in the corner with ice in condom's were buffoons . But if he was the unstoppable wrecking machine that many wish he was he wouldn't have been battered from pillar to post until he looked like a gargoyle to begin with.

Tyson got thrashed, period.

[BoxBuzz]

Troo Dat!

[tennessee]

no way a prime Tyson could keep from punching Toney's lights out at the first press conferance they attend.

[keithmoonhangover]

Indeed, now those are traumatic events. Getting paid millions to smash a man in the face when you're having issues with your women? I call that awesome. Most of us have to drum up a bar fight.

Then guys in the corner with ice in condom's were buffoons . But if he was the unstoppable wrecking machine that many wish he was he wouldn't have been battered from pillar to post until he looked like a gargoyle to begin with.

Tyson got thrashed, period.

I know Tyson got thrashed, but the signs were there when he got floored by Page. Douglas was in great shape and fought a fantastic fight, but if Tyson had trained properly and moved his head, then he would have won. His weight was low, but that does not mean that he trained properly.
I'm not a Tyson fanatic, in fact I didn't care for him at the time. One thing is for sure... he would have lost his next fight, no matter what shape he was in. Holyfield had the perfect style to beat Tyson and would have beaten him anytime in his career.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Indeed, now those are traumatic events. Getting paid millions to smash a man in the face when you're having issues with your women? I call that awesome. Most of us have to drum up a bar fight.

Then guys in the corner with ice in condom's were buffoons . But if he was the unstoppable wrecking machine that many wish he was he wouldn't have been battered from pillar to post until he looked like a gargoyle to begin with.

Tyson got thrashed, period.

I know Tyson got thrashed, but the signs were there when he got floored by Page. Douglas was in great shape and fought a fantastic fight, but if Tyson had trained properly and moved his head, then he would have won. His weight was low, but that does not mean that he trained properly.
I'm not a Tyson fanatic, in fact I didn't care for him at the time. One thing is for sure... he would have lost his next fight, no matter what shape he was in. Holyfield had the perfect style to beat Tyson and would have beaten him anytime in his career.

I didn't call you a Tyson fanatic but these are typical excuses and they carry no weight with me. Tyson never had much head movement when guys were actually punching. He ran into the better man that night. No different then when Evander ran into Bowe.

[keithmoonhangover]

Indeed, now those are traumatic events. Getting paid millions to smash a man in the face when you're having issues with your women? I call that awesome. Most of us have to drum up a bar fight.

Then guys in the corner with ice in condom's were buffoons . But if he was the unstoppable wrecking machine that many wish he was he wouldn't have been battered from pillar to post until he looked like a gargoyle to begin with.

Tyson got thrashed, period.

I know Tyson got thrashed, but the signs were there when he got floored by Page. Douglas was in great shape and fought a fantastic fight, but if Tyson had trained properly and moved his head, then he would have won. His weight was low, but that does not mean that he trained properly.
I'm not a Tyson fanatic, in fact I didn't care for him at the time. One thing is for sure... he would have lost his next fight, no matter what shape he was in. Holyfield had the perfect style to beat Tyson and would have beaten him anytime in his career.

I didn't call you a Tyson fanatic but these are typical excuses and they carry no weight with me. Tyson never had much head movement when guys were actually punching. He ran into the better man that night. No different then when Evander ran into Bowe.

Are you saying that Tyson was focused and in top shape for the Douglas fight?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I know Tyson got thrashed, but the signs were there when he got floored by Page. Douglas was in great shape and fought a fantastic fight, but if Tyson had trained properly and moved his head, then he would have won. His weight was low, but that does not mean that he trained properly.
I'm not a Tyson fanatic, in fact I didn't care for him at the time. One thing is for sure... he would have lost his next fight, no matter what shape he was in. Holyfield had the perfect style to beat Tyson and would have beaten him anytime in his career.

I didn't call you a Tyson fanatic but these are typical excuses and they carry no weight with me. Tyson never had much head movement when guys were actually punching. He ran into the better man that night. No different then when Evander ran into Bowe.

Are you saying that Tyson was focused and in top shape for the Douglas fight?

Yes

[keithmoonhangover]

I didn't call you a Tyson fanatic but these are typical excuses and they carry no weight with me. Tyson never had much head movement when guys were actually punching. He ran into the better man that night. No different then when Evander ran into Bowe.

Are you saying that Tyson was focused and in top shape for the Douglas fight?

Yes

No.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Are you saying that Tyson was focused and in top shape for the Douglas fight?

Yes

No.

[MEISINGER]

Firstly, that was the case for a million fighters, in a million fights. Tyson faced nothing exceptional going into that fight so many before him havent done.

Secondly, that was not my bone of contention to start with. Tyson fanatics declare him in poor physical shape, and I call overwhelming bullshit on that.

i most definately agree.
tyson may not have been 100% in his best shape
but he was at least 95%

the guys body looked great,when he got in the ring he looked fit and in good shape.

douglas was a dangerous man that night,all his bull-shitt with his mom and babies momma.
he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.
i wish people would stop making it look like tyson was a shell of himself
and give credit where credit is do.douglas was an animal on that night in tokyo.

good post goodnite irene

[keithmoonhangover]

Yes

No.

[hhaehre]

What kind of shape Tyson was in mentally and physically for Douglas is really not all that relevant for the Tyson vs Toney discussion. What is relevant is that Douglas had a heavyweights punch and Toney does not.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Firstly, that was the case for a million fighters, in a million fights. Tyson faced nothing exceptional going into that fight so many before him havent done.

Secondly, that was not my bone of contention to start with. Tyson fanatics declare him in poor physical shape, and I call overwhelming bullshit on that.

i most definately agree.
tyson may not have been 100% in his best shape
but he was at least 95%

the guys body looked great,when he got in the ring he looked fit and in good shape.

douglas was a dangerous man that night,all his bull-shitt with his mom and babies momma.
he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.
i wish people would stop making it look like tyson was a shell of himself
and give credit where credit is do.douglas was an animal on that night in tokyo.

good post goodnite irene

[big train express]

can we stay on topic guys?

i didnt want this to turn into a tyson-douglas thread. toney had the tools to weather an early storm from tyson. he would have landed at will in the later rounds and win a UD. tyson was a great fighter, but a little overrated

[keithmoonhangover]

can we stay on topic guys?

i didnt want this to turn into a tyson-douglas thread. toney had the tools to weather an early storm from tyson. he would have landed at will in the later rounds and win a UD. tyson was a great fighter, but a little overrated

Tyson before prison hurts Toney badly.

[jrc26]

Why does being a hardcore James Toney fan seem to go hand in hand with having virtually no knowledge of boxing history whatsoever, including not having that much knowledge of James Toney himself?

One Toney fan on this thread actually wrote that Toney has 'only ever been in trouble against Sam Peter'? Which means they don't even know about a key world title defense in Toney's career, where he was dropped & in terrible trouble vs Reggie Johnson! Incredible!

When Toney slaps around an ancient Holyfield and has mixed results vs John Ruiz, Sam Peter and Hasim Rahman whilst twice failing steroids tests, you don't get into serious discussions on whether he could beat Smokin' Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, or Buster Douglas. Of course he couldn't. This whole thread is nutty.

A: Not a hardcore James Toney fan.

B: Way to sound like an arrogant turd.

C: We have very different definitions of "terrible trouble". Getting up at the count of 2, letting Johnson punch himself out while blocking 90% of what he throws, and then winning the last half of the round is not "terrible trouble".

D: I never said James would beat Tyson, I simply responded to the person who claimed Mike would easily KO James. And based on your expert boxing knowledge you would know that Toney has a solid defense and solid chin, thus making a Mike Tyson win via KO not such an obvious pick...as I was pointing out.

[NazNaci1]

The version of Buster Douglas who beat Tyson, was one of the best HW's ever, for that night. That version decimates Toney, completely.

Re: Tyson not being in shape vs Buster. He was in physical shape but not fighting shape, if that makes sense. He was training but had soo many distractions, hangers on, BS being fed to him, its impossible to say if he was in prime, fighting condition.

As for Tyson v Toney, seriously some people have a vastly overrated opinion of Toney. He gets smashed, prime Tyson matches him for speed, was more active, throwing shots in combinations and had very good power. Toney just could not live with him.

The fact some people even pick him to win (Toney, I mean) is friggin' amzing

Don't confuse this as bias, I mean I can see Tyson losing to enough fighters, prime for prime. Toney would never be one of those to beat him though.

Prime for Prime - Toney gets beat up and beat up very, very badly.

[BoxBuzz]

It's sad that one of the only "go to" stories to save Mike's credibility is that James Buster Douglas was somehow Superman on that night.

Fact is he was very good, and when he was at his best he would ALWAYS be a headache for Mike. Might even beat him on another night other than that the night he was mysteriously morphed into the Hulk, or Thor or whoever he was that night.