Elite pound-for-pound top 20 of all time:

[Crease]

Who would fill the 20 seats in the elite pound-for-pound Hall Of Fame?
(It may give you a sore head, but it's worth it).

Here's my attempt: (in no particualr order)

Sugar Ray Robinson
Ted Kid Lewis
Jimmy Wilde
Benny Leonard
Mickey Walker
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Archie Moore
Ike Williams
Willie Pep
Carlos Monzon
Roberto Duran
Tommy Hearns
Sugar Ray Leonard
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez
Wilfred Benitez
Azumah Nelson
Muhammad Ali
Salvador Sanchez

Who shouldn't be in there?
Who has been overlooked?

[Seamus]

Harry Greb doesn't make your top 20 ?

Ike Williams is way too high

[The End]

Greb and Ezzard Charles stand out as who's missing.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Greb, Charles & Langford are in my top 5. So I find them to be glaring omissions. Chavez, Nelson & Benitez are way too high for me.

Not in order and I'm sure I'll forget someone

Robinson
Langford
Greb
Armstrong
Charles
Canzoneri
Pep
Louis
Ali
Ross
Benny Leonard
Duran
Ray Leonard
Whitaker
Hearns
Walker
Gavilan
Griffith
Moore
Tunney

[Boilermaker]

Harry Greb doesn't make your top 20 ?

Ike Williams is way too high

I am a little insulted Seamus. You make mention of the unfilmed Harry Greb but forgot to mention Bob Fitzsimmons

There is no justification whatsoever to leave Fitz out of a top 20, unless you put in that little asterisk that says 'not considered'. I thought you should have realised that by now.

[man]

Who would fill the 20 seats in the elite pound-for-pound Hall Of Fame?
(It may give you a sore head, but it's worth it).

Here's my attempt: (in no particualr order)

Sugar Ray Robinson
Ted Kid Lewis
Jimmy Wilde
Benny Leonard
Mickey Walker
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Archie Moore
Ike Williams
Willie Pep
Carlos Monzon
Roberto Duran
Tommy Hearns
Sugar Ray Leonard
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez
Wilfred Benitez
Azumah Nelson
Muhammad Ali
Salvador Sanchez

Who shouldn't be in there?
Who has been overlooked?

no greb? no hagler, yet the other three of fab4 plus benitez?

[Ambling Alp]

Obviously as mentioned, Greb, Langford and Charles have to be in there.

Ike Williams, Ted Kid Lewis, Azumah Nelson and Wilfred Benitez aren't top 20.
I wouldn't quite have Hearns, Arguello and Chavez in the top 20, but they are arguable.

You also have to consider Joe Gans, Sandy Saddler and Barney Ross.
Hagler is borderline.

[raylawpc]

Fitz, Tommy Ryan, George Dixon, Jimmy Barry, the original Joe Walcott, Kid Lavigne, Sam Langford, and Joe Gans from the turn-of-the-century all deserve considerations on these lists, IMO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Langford deserves more than consideration, it's impossible to consider a list credible without him.

[raylawpc]

Langford deserves more than consideration, it's impossible to consider a list credible without him.

Of course he does, but it's not my list.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Langford deserves more than consideration, it's impossible to consider a list credible without him.

Of course he does, but it's not my list.

I know, he is much closer to #1 than he is outside of a top 20. It annoys me, even if people are turned off by the old timers or bothered that they don't have film(like they watch it anyway), but a guy with wins over all time greats from Lightweight to Heavyweight speaks for himself.

[dempseyfire]

1) Harry Greb

2) Ray Robinson

3) Sam Langford

4) Henry Armstrong

5) Willie Pep

6) Ezzard Charles

7) Benny Leonard

8 ) Mickey Walker

9) Gene Tunney

10) Bob Fitzimmons

11) Archie Moore

12) Tommy Gibbons

13) Joe Gans

14) Barney Ross

15) Eder Jofre

16) Ray Leonard

17) Tommy Loughran

18) Roberto Duran

19) Joe Walcott

20) Joe Louis

Emile Griffith just misses the top #20 at #21.

Hearns or Nelson should definitely not be in the top 20.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hearns > Jofre however you want to cut it. Though blitzing Saldivar is immense.

[scallum]

Harry Greb doesn't make your top 20 ?

Ike Williams is way too high

Exactly how could Greb be left off? Dude went 48-0 in one year and was the only guy to beat Tunney

[dempseyfire]

Hearns > Jofre however you want to cut it. Though blitzing Saldivar is immense.

However you cut it? I'll confidently pick arguably the greatest bantamweight ever over the Hitman who couldn't figure out a way to beat Iran Barkely over 2 tries. Hearns an all-time great without a doubt but too chinny to be among the top 20. At the very least one shouldn't say there isn't an argument.
Hearns never even was THE man in any division he fought in save 154 for a few months when that division was still regarded as just a stepping stone division. He's one of the first to benefit from the influx of paper titles that sprang forth in the 80s so he can say he's been a champ in something like 5-6 weight classes, but IMO he was never champ at 147, 160, 168 or 175. This shouldn't sound like I'm trying to tear Tommy down, as I said def a true great.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

His wins match up well with Jofre's, that means more to me than being the man in a division. I don't have a problem with Eder over him to be honest, but saying Tommy doesn't belong is silly. He beat two of the guys on your list, how many did Jofre beat?

[Alan Partridge]

1 Harry Greb
2 Ray Robinson
3 Henry Armstrong
4 Benny Leonard
5 Willie Pep
6 Sam Langford
7 Mickey Walker
8 Ezzard Charles
9 Bob Fitzimmons
10 Ray Leonard
11 Archie Moore
12 Jimmy Wilde
13 Roberto Duran
14 Joe Walcott (Barbados)
15 Gene Tunney
16 Muhammad Ali
17 Sandy Saddler
18 Stanley Ketchel
19 Joe Louis
20 Tony Canzoneri

I made this list in the 90s. So it may have changed since. I will update at some point.

[elmersalsa]

Obviously as mentioned, Greb, Langford and Charles have to be in there.

Ike Williams, Ted Kid Lewis, Azumah Nelson and Wilfred Benitez aren't top 20.
I wouldn't quite have Hearns, Arguello and Chavez in the top 20, but they are arguable.

You also have to consider Joe Gans, Sandy Saddler and Barney Ross.
Hagler is borderline.

I agree with you Alp on this one. You got almost the same thinking that I got. The only thing that I do not agree is Barney Ross at the top 20.

Hearns is not a top 20 in any circumstances. He lost the 2 biggest fights in his career. By KO.

[dempseyfire]

His wins match up well with Jofre's, that means more to me than being the man in a division. I don't have a problem with Eder over him to be honest, but saying Tommy doesn't belong is silly. He beat two of the guys on your list, how many did Jofre beat?

Fair enough. I mean I don't think its neccesarily outrageous if Hearns is included. But the versions of the guys on my list he beat (Leonard and Duran) wern't exactly in their prime when Tommy beat them.

[Boilermaker]

Fitz, Tommy Ryan, George Dixon, Jimmy Barry, the original Joe Walcott, Kid Lavigne, Sam Langford, and Joe Gans from the turn-of-the-century all deserve considerations on these lists, IMO.

Tommy Ryan is a good and interesting call. His career pretty much mirrors Ray Robinsons career, yet he is very rarely mentioned in a top 10. Fitz of course is top 10 on any list on any criteria at all. I think you have mentioned some pretty good fighters here and all have a claim. I dont think that many people realise just how many astonishingly good fighters there have been. There is no shame in missing out on a top 100 let alone a top 10. Only a handful of fighters command definite top 10 positions and of those who do, at the very least, they must have established themselves as the clear no 1 in their own time at their own weights and ahead of virtually every other fighter that fought in other divisions at their time. In fact, realistically, a top 10 pound for pound fighter is almost certainly going to be no 1 of all time in their own division and often in other divisions too. Adn there is also the problem of comparing long careers to short and spectacular reigns such as Darcy, Ketchell, McGovern Jeffries.

I also find that heavyweights are very underated. Louis beat bigger opponents than anyone, as did Dempsey and others. Even Rocky Marciano is grossly underated, and if Ali is the fastest fighter ever (he may be), wouldnt this make him clearly the fastest pound for pound fighters. If this is the case, this would make him some type of mythical pound for pound monster.

Realistically, i think there are different types of fighters to fit in:
The weigth Jumpers, Langford, Greb, ARmstrong, Walker, Walcott, Duran,Leonard etc
The one weight longevity Dominators, Monzon, Hagler, Louis, Robinson,Pep, etc.
The forces of nature Ketchell, Darcy, McGovern, Jeffries, Tyson
And of course Fitz who fits into every single category and must sit up top

Anyway, the point is depending on which criteria you use, you could easily have two lists which dont mention any of the usual favourites and are still good lists.

It is a very difficult choice to make which