Les Darcy versus Harry Greb

[barrack osama]

What a great fight this would have been just after WW1. I think Darcy could have beaten Dempsey and Willard, he was absolutely phenominal. What he achieved by age 20 defies belief. However Greb is considered one of the best ever. I think Darcy's power wins him this fight though, would have been a great matchup.

[Boilermaker]

What a great fight this would have been just after WW1. I think Darcy could have beaten Dempsey and Willard, he was absolutely phenominal. What he achieved by age 20 defies belief. However Greb is considered one of the best ever. I think Darcy's power wins him this fight though, would have been a great matchup.

You are correct about what Darcy achieved at such a young age. It took me a while to realise it, as like most people, i always thought he was just a good fighter who died early. But after looking into his career, he was much, much more. He achieved more at such a young age than any other fighter did. Obviously there was always the potential for Darcy to derail in a Tysonesque fashion, and Greb while a slow starter (compared to Darcy) did prove himself over time in a way Darcy never had a chance too, this really is one of if not the greatest non fights that could have been.

For the record, I think that it is worth noting that at the only time they could have fought, Darcy must have been the strong favourite (ie in the USA just before Darcy's death). Even Klompton, Grebs no1 fan admitted this over on ESB. For what it is worth, i agree with him about this, and also about the fact that Greb would be a very lively underdog (a tag that greb really deserves -at worst - against any middleweight that ever lived (possible exception of Fitzsimmons of course ).

Darcy's failed American venture really is sad. It is just phenomenal how highly he could have been ranked with just an ounce of luck. There were discussions at the time of putting Darcy in fights with Gibbons, Greb, Dillon and Dempsey among others. Not to mention the widely acknowledged Fulton private fight where he stopped the giant in the second round. Imagine how highly he would be rated if he had taken and won those fights (all of which he would have been favoured to do). Of course the flip side of this is that he didnt and so he does still have that question mark over him.

[Giancarlo]

Not to mention the widely acknowledged Fulton private fight where he stopped the giant in the second round.

Tell me more.

[barrack osama]

I think Darcy would have finished up ahead of Robinson as p4p #1 if he lived. I started the Darcy versus SRR thread on ESB and got some crazy arguments as well as a wealth of knowledge about Les Darcy.

[barrack osama]

Not to mention the widely acknowledged Fulton private fight where he stopped the giant in the second round.

Tell me more.

Darcy was just in another league and Fulton couldn't lay a glove on him, why he quit after the second round. Totally outboxed him despite being a foot shorter. The stories about Les knocking him out cold are an exaggeration.

[King Carlos]

I think Darcy would have finished up ahead of Robinson as p4p #1 if he lived. I started the Darcy versus SRR thread on ESB and got some crazy arguments as well as a wealth of knowledge about Les Darcy.

Was that the one the stupid asshole mod deleted, along with perma-banning some of the forum's best posters?

[barrack osama]

I think Darcy would have finished up ahead of Robinson as p4p #1 if he lived. I started the Darcy versus SRR thread on ESB and got some crazy arguments as well as a wealth of knowledge about Les Darcy.

Was that the one the stupid asshole mod deleted, along with perma-banning some of the forum's best posters?

No the one before that. I revived it yesterday its back on the front page. I wasn't around when that one ws going and I just started reading it when it got deleted. fornicate those mods there are retarded, they've ruined what was once a great site.

[King Carlos]

I think Darcy would have finished up ahead of Robinson as p4p #1 if he lived. I started the Darcy versus SRR thread on ESB and got some crazy arguments as well as a wealth of knowledge about Les Darcy.

Was that the one the stupid asshole mod deleted, along with perma-banning some of the forum's best posters?

No the one before that. I revived it yesterday its back on the front page. I wasn't around when that one ws going and I just started reading it when it got deleted. eff those mods there are retarded, they've ruined what was once a great site.

Yeah, I know. I'm in the middle of a two month ban for no reason whatsoever. They didn't even attempt to give me a reason, either. Just said "Take a break!" Jag-offs.

[barrack osama]

Was that the one the stupid asshole mod deleted, along with perma-banning some of the forum's best posters?

No the one before that. I revived it yesterday its back on the front page. I wasn't around when that one ws going and I just started reading it when it got deleted. eff those mods there are retarded, they've ruined what was once a great site.

Yeah, I know. I'm in the middle of a two month ban for no reason whatsoever. They didn't even attempt to give me a reason, either. Just said "Take a break!" Jag-offs.

Whats your alias over there now?

[King Carlos]

No the one before that. I revived it yesterday its back on the front page. I wasn't around when that one ws going and I just started reading it when it got deleted. eff those mods there are retarded, they've ruined what was once a great site.

Yeah, I know. I'm in the middle of a two month ban for no reason whatsoever. They didn't even attempt to give me a reason, either. Just said "Take a break!" Jag-offs.

Whats your alias over there now?

Believe it or not, I haven't made one. I'm surprised at how little I miss it given how much time I used to spend over there. I'll just wait it out. I'm starting to like it over here, anyway.

[barrack osama]

Yeah, I know. I'm in the middle of a two month ban for no reason whatsoever. They didn't even attempt to give me a reason, either. Just said "Take a break!" Jag-offs.

Whats your alias over there now?

Believe it or not, I haven't made one. I'm surprised at how little I miss it given how much time I used to spend over there. I'll just wait it out. I'm starting to like it over here, anyway.

Yeah its only good now cause a lot of people use it compared to other sites. Is that one the most popular as far as classic boxing is concerned?

[King Carlos]

Whats your alias over there now?

Believe it or not, I haven't made one. I'm surprised at how little I miss it given how much time I used to spend over there. I'll just wait it out. I'm starting to like it over here, anyway.

Yeah its only good now cause a lot of people use it compared to other sites. Is that one the most popular as far as classic boxing is concerned?

Yeah, any boxing, really. I think I'll refrain from commenting any more about ESB over here, though. I feel like I'm plugging the site.

[Boilermaker]

Not to mention the widely acknowledged Fulton private fight where he stopped the giant in the second round.

Tell me more.

According to Bob Laga, it was a short left that dropped Fred Fulton.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi ... 111.2.67.6


and here is a small mention with claims that Dempsey and Darcy were scheduled to fight. I think though that it was never agreed. Dempsey himself said that there was talk of matching the two. I think that this is believable and about the extent of it.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7A ... arcy&hl=en

Jack Dempsey was so impressive when he fought and Kod Willard, that many people actually thought he was Les Darcy!

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1r ... arcy&hl=en

For those doubting the greatness of Darcy and disputing the strength of his record, look where he was ranked by this paper in terms of most number of middleweight title fights, as late as 1988. And all of this at just 21 years of age.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fb ... arcy&hl=en

Everyone is biased, but this writer here considered Darcy to be worthy of discussion as the greatest ever middleweight, in 1920 or so. (I have never seen Greb mentioned in this manner so close to the end of his career).

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi ... 117.2.49.2

And on the subject of bias and big calls, (a little off topic, but it does show just how great this Darcy Greb fight would have been if it came off), look at this guys predictions of Darcy and Greb against Joe Louis!
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ra ... arcy&hl=en

[klompton]

Oh boy, here we go again. The myth of Darcy beating Fred Fulton...


All based on stories told by people who were either very close to Darcy or not within a thousand miles of the supposed event when it happened. As for Dempsey saying he was being matched with Darcy get real. Dempsey was a total unknown in 1916/1917, who had accomplished absolutely nothing, had just recently fled New York after a very unsuccessful trip to make his name (left so poor he had to ride the rods back to Utah i.e. hang to the bottom of a train), and would spend the next several months giving less than stellar performances against less than stellar competition. Why in the world would anyone be interested in matching Dempsey and Darcy. That notion is absolutely laughable. Its literally like saying they are trying to match Joe Clubfighter from Alabama with Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacqiauo at MSG.

In Australia they believe Darcy parted the red sea, walked on water, raised the dead, and changed water in to wine... All on the same day...

[barrack osama]

Oh boy, here we go again. The myth of Darcy beating Fred Fulton...


All based on stories told by people who were either very close to Darcy or not within a thousand miles of the supposed event when it happened. As for Dempsey saying he was being matched with Darcy get real. Dempsey was a total unknown in 1916/1917, who had accomplished absolutely nothing, had just recently fled New York after a very unsuccessful trip to make his name (left so poor he had to ride the rods back to Utah i.e. hang to the bottom of a train), and would spend the next several months giving less than stellar performances against less than stellar competition. Why in the world would anyone be interested in matching Dempsey and Darcy. That notion is absolutely laughable. Its literally like saying they are trying to match Joe Clubfighter from Alabama with Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacqiauo at MSG.

In Australia they believe Darcy parted the red sea, walked on water, raised the dead, and changed water in to wine... All on the same day...

Why do you insist on discrediting the legend that is Les Darcy? You were given numerous first hand accounts, yet you persist. There is even film showing how good he was (unlike a certain Calzaghe like slapper)

Krumdon you are a dog of the lowest form.

[Boilermaker]

Oh boy, here we go again. The myth of Darcy beating Fred Fulton...


All based on stories told by people who were either very close to Darcy or not within a thousand miles of the supposed event when it happened. As for Dempsey saying he was being matched with Darcy get real. Dempsey was a total unknown in 1916/1917, who had accomplished absolutely nothing, had just recently fled New York after a very unsuccessful trip to make his name (left so poor he had to ride the rods back to Utah i.e. hang to the bottom of a train), and would spend the next several months giving less than stellar performances against less than stellar competition. Why in the world would anyone be interested in matching Dempsey and Darcy. That notion is absolutely laughable. Its literally like saying they are trying to match Joe Clubfighter from Alabama with Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacqiauo at MSG.

In Australia they believe Darcy parted the red sea, walked on water, raised the dead, and changed water in to wine... All on the same day...

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum ... title-1916

A total unknown who had claimed the light heavyweight championship it seems. A Darcy Dempsey fight was nowhere near as senseless as it first seems.

[barrack osama]

Oh boy, here we go again. The myth of Darcy beating Fred Fulton...


All based on stories told by people who were either very close to Darcy or not within a thousand miles of the supposed event when it happened. As for Dempsey saying he was being matched with Darcy get real. Dempsey was a total unknown in 1916/1917, who had accomplished absolutely nothing, had just recently fled New York after a very unsuccessful trip to make his name (left so poor he had to ride the rods back to Utah i.e. hang to the bottom of a train), and would spend the next several months giving less than stellar performances against less than stellar competition. Why in the world would anyone be interested in matching Dempsey and Darcy. That notion is absolutely laughable. Its literally like saying they are trying to match Joe Clubfighter from Alabama with Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacqiauo at MSG.

In Australia they believe Darcy parted the red sea, walked on water, raised the dead, and changed water in to wine... All on the same day...

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum ... title-1916

A total unknown who had claimed the light heavyweight championship it seems. A Darcy Dempsey fight was nowhere near as senseless as it first seems.

Well well well. What do we have here? Krumdon, you dog, I thought you were a historian of the highest order. And yet, you never even knew about this.

[Giancarlo]

Calm down, mate.

Try to inject a bit of humour when you slam someone; trust me, they hate it.

[raylawpc]

Oh boy, here we go again. The myth of Darcy beating Fred Fulton...


All based on stories told by people who were either very close to Darcy or not within a thousand miles of the supposed event when it happened. As for Dempsey saying he was being matched with Darcy get real. Dempsey was a total unknown in 1916/1917, who had accomplished absolutely nothing, had just recently fled New York after a very unsuccessful trip to make his name (left so poor he had to ride the rods back to Utah i.e. hang to the bottom of a train), and would spend the next several months giving less than stellar performances against less than stellar competition. Why in the world would anyone be interested in matching Dempsey and Darcy. That notion is absolutely laughable. Its literally like saying they are trying to match Joe Clubfighter from Alabama with Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacqiauo at MSG.

In Australia they believe Darcy parted the red sea, walked on water, raised the dead, and changed water in to wine... All on the same day...

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum ... title-1916

A total unknown who had claimed the light heavyweight championship it seems. A Darcy Dempsey fight was nowhere near as senseless as it first seems.

Uh-huh. If you do a little bit of research, you'll find the fight took place in Utah - Ogden in fact . . . not exactly the center of the fistic universe in 1916. Dempsey was not well known outside of the Utah-Nevada-Colorado circuit in early 1916. He was trying to make a name for himself. What better way to do it than to claim he was the light-heavyweight champion?

(Note to Klompton: This fight took place before the New York trip.)

[raylawpc]

Calm down, mate.

Try to inject a bit of humour when you slam someone; trust me, they hate it.

You mean all this time you thought you were being humorous?

[Boilermaker]

Oh boy, here we go again. The myth of Darcy beating Fred Fulton...


All based on stories told by people who were either very close to Darcy or not within a thousand miles of the supposed event when it happened. As for Dempsey saying he was being matched with Darcy get real. Dempsey was a total unknown in 1916/1917, who had accomplished absolutely nothing, had just recently fled New York after a very unsuccessful trip to make his name (left so poor he had to ride the rods back to Utah i.e. hang to the bottom of a train), and would spend the next several months giving less than stellar performances against less than stellar competition. Why in the world would anyone be interested in matching Dempsey and Darcy. That notion is absolutely laughable. Its literally like saying they are trying to match Joe Clubfighter from Alabama with Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacqiauo at MSG.

In Australia they believe Darcy parted the red sea, walked on water, raised the dead, and changed water in to wine... All on the same day...

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum ... title-1916

A total unknown who had claimed the light heavyweight championship it seems. A Darcy Dempsey fight was nowhere near as senseless as it first seems.

Uh-huh. If you do a little bit of research, you'll find the fight took place in Utah - Ogden in fact . . . not exactly the center of the fistic universe in 1916. Dempsey was not well known outside of the Utah-Nevada-Colorado circuit in early 1916. He was trying to make a name for himself. What better way to do it than to claim he was the light-heavyweight champion?

(Note to Klompton: This fight took place before the New York trip.)

Ray, I am not sure whether or not you followed the origins of this debate which originally started over at ESB on a now deleted thread which had a lot of very good information (much of which was provided by Klompton himself and much of which was admittedly in between some pretty vicious playing of the man instead of the ball by some members of both sides). But to summarise things for anyone who doesnt know, Darcy and Fulton did both train at Goshan, New York, which is 100 miles or so from New York. Mick King, who was close to Dempsey and was at Goshan at the time confirmed the fight (a first hand report) and the fact that Darcy stopped him in the second round. This was not confirmed in print until after Darcy's death. The local Goshan papers had little on the subject, but did refer to one public workout which involved a Darcy Fulton spar with Fulton also working out with other fighters. There is also a second eyewitness report from a Goshan local who talks of Darcy and says that he was often present when Darcy and Fulton sparred and Darcy often got the better of the sparring.

The next person in the debate was Bob Laga, who was the manager of a fighter (whose name i have drawn a mental blank on at the moment), who says that he personally witnessed teh private fight which was arranged to show those in the know, when he was in New York. An argument is raised that he was not within 500 miles of New York because at the time he was on a tour in the midwest with his fighter. However, closer examination reveals that Bob Laga's fighter fought in none other than New York City at the same time that Fulton was training at Goshan. Klompton made an argument that Darcy had already left goshan by this point, a day or two before the fight. Although as yet, i have not seen any evidence of this, and Darcy was placed in new york a couple of weeks later (no one is sure of the exact date of the sparring session).

Jack Dempsey is the next to chime in with his stories about his handlers being present for the Darcy Fulton fight (no mention of who), as they were in negotiations for trying to get a fight with Darcy. Klompton is adamant this is impossible because Dempsey was not well known, was fighting 500 miles away, was a heavyweight, and had just left to retire from the game to california (from memory) and a darcy fight would make no sense at all. This all sounds reasonable enough, although Dempsey certainly had no reason to lie. A closer inspection shows that Fireman Jim Flynn, who had just KOd Dempsey turned up on the scene to replace Darcy in one of his fights. Interesting only in that if Flynn and Dempsey handlers were close enough to arrange a fight, it is a small coincidence that at least one of them turned up on the NY scene. Next we find that Dempsey had actually technically claimed the light heavyweight championship. And Darcy was scheduled to fight another Light heavyweight champion claimant, Jack Dillon. The inference being that Darcy was keen to add the light heavyweight strap to his collection. All of a sudden a totally random fight which was being talked about by an all time great is suddenly not as random and pointless as possible. This is where the debate sits at the moment.

Contrary to the original position, it is now confirmed that the spar did take place, with the only questions being whether or not the session was halted early and/or whether it was a fight or spar. There are eyewitnesses whose stories cannot be proven wrong, even thought they seem completely improbably at first glance. If it were a court of law, it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt, though there is still the opportunity for Klompton and Co to turn up evidence to change that verdict, but they have tried very hard, and i dont see it happening.

[bollox]

Here we go again

This place has so much more class than the other joint so I sincerely hope it doesn't go down to that level

[raylawpc]

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum ... title-1916

A total unknown who had claimed the light heavyweight championship it seems. A Darcy Dempsey fight was nowhere near as senseless as it first seems.

Uh-huh. If you do a little bit of research, you'll find the fight took place in Utah - Ogden in fact . . . not exactly the center of the fistic universe in 1916. Dempsey was not well known outside of the Utah-Nevada-Colorado circuit in early 1916. He was trying to make a name for himself. What better way to do it than to claim he was the light-heavyweight champion?

(Note to Klompton: This fight took place before the New York trip.)

Ray, I am not sure whether or not you followed the origins of this debate which originally started over at ESB on a now deleted thread which had a lot of very good information (much of which was provided by Klompton himself and much of which was admittedly in between some pretty vicious playing of the man instead of the ball by some members of both sides). But to summarise things for anyone who doesnt know, Darcy and Fulton did both train at Goshan, New York, which is 100 miles or so from New York. Mick King, who was close to Dempsey and was at Goshan at the time confirmed the fight (a first hand report) and the fact that Darcy stopped him in the second round. This was not confirmed in print until after Darcy's death. The local Goshan papers had little on the subject, but did refer to one public workout which involved a Darcy Fulton spar with Fulton also working out with other fighters. There is also a second eyewitness report from a Goshan local who talks of Darcy and says that he was often present when Darcy and Fulton sparred and Darcy often got the better of the sparring.

The next person in the debate was Bob Laga, who was the manager of a fighter (whose name i have drawn a mental blank on at the moment), who says that he personally witnessed teh private fight which was arranged to show those in the know, when he was in New York. An argument is raised that he was not within 500 miles of New York because at the time he was on a tour in the midwest with his fighter. However, closer examination reveals that Bob Laga's fighter fought in none other than New York City at the same time that Fulton was training at Goshan. Klompton made an argument that Darcy had already left goshan by this point, a day or two before the fight. Although as yet, i have not seen any evidence of this, and Darcy was placed in new york a couple of weeks later (no one is sure of the exact date of the sparring session).

Jack Dempsey is the next to chime in with his stories about his handlers being present for the Darcy Fulton fight (no mention of who), as they were in negotiations for trying to get a fight with Darcy. Klompton is adamant this is impossible because Dempsey was not well known, was fighting 500 miles away, was a heavyweight, and had just left to retire from the game to california (from memory) and a darcy fight would make no sense at all. This all sounds reasonable enough, although Dempsey certainly had no reason to lie. A closer inspection shows that Fireman Jim Flynn, who had just KOd Dempsey turned up on the scene to replace Darcy in one of his fights. Interesting only in that if Flynn and Dempsey handlers were close enough to arrange a fight, it is a small coincidence that at least one of them turned up on the NY scene. Next we find that Dempsey had actually technically claimed the light heavyweight championship. And Darcy was scheduled to fight another Light heavyweight champion claimant, Jack Dillon. The inference being that Darcy was keen to add the light heavyweight strap to his collection. All of a sudden a totally random fight which was being talked about by an all time great is suddenly not as random and pointless as possible. This is where the debate sits at the moment.

Contrary to the original position, it is now confirmed that the spar did take place, with the only questions being whether or not the session was halted early and/or whether it was a fight or spar. There are eyewitnesses whose stories cannot be proven wrong, even thought they seem completely improbably at first glance. If it were a court of law, it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt, though there is still the opportunity for Klompton and Co to turn up evidence to change that verdict, but they have tried very hard, and i dont see it happening.

I've never visited the ESB Forum. I was responding to the claim that Dempsey was "well known" in May 1916. He wasn't - at least not outside of Nevada, Utah and Colorado. I don't know or care if Les Darcy ever sparred with Fred Fulton.

[Giancarlo]

Calm down, mate.

Try to inject a bit of humour when you slam someone; trust me, they hate it.

You mean all this time you thought you were being humorous?

Apart from when I got granberry banned, yes, Tom, of course.

You don't think I actually care about any of this rubbish do you?

It's light entertainment to start the day in the office for me.

It's particularly enjoyable when Nancy or Elmo are on the hook.

[raylawpc]

Calm down, mate.

Try to inject a bit of humour when you slam someone; trust me, they hate it.

You mean all this time you thought you were being humorous?

Apart from when I got granberry banned, yes, Tom, of course.

You don't think I actually care about any of this rubbish do you?

It's light entertainment to start the day in the office for me.

It's particularly enjoyable when Nancy or Elmo are on the hook.

Hmm. Who would have known?