Middleweight Top 10

[raylawpc]

It is when you start naming guys with no case.

Who are the guys with "no case?"

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Jose Torres is a good place to start.

[raylawpc]

Jose Torres is a good place to start.

That's one . . .

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Clabby
Thil
McGoorty
Klaus
Conn

That's the only ones I would say are totally out of line.

[klompton]

Jose Torres was a hellacious MW who had to go up to LHW just to get a shot at a title. Torres only has three losses on his record and two of those (Tiger) are highly disputed. The other, to Fernandez (who a lot of people thought beat Fullmer, in another of Fullmers many gift decisions) was via KO, something he wouldnt have had to fear from the light hitting Fullmer. Torres was able to go up and compete HW despite being a natural MW, Fullmer never once even seriously considered trying a move up to LHW much less HW were in both divisions his one asset (if you dont include friendly officiating) his strength would have been neutralized. We can agree to disagree but Id pick Torres over Fullmer.


Irregardless its easy to pick more than 25 MWs that were better in Fullmer in various ways and its not difficult to pick several fighters during his career and reign that were better than him. Take away all of the B.S. decisions he won and draws he got, factor in his ugly as hell style and the fact that the guy could literally not fight without fouling (headbutts, elbows, rabbit punches, low blows, wrestling, excessive holding, holding and hitting, etc etc) and you have a guy who is so overrated based on a few wins over aging ex welterweights that it would be ridiculous to boost his rating.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm quite aware of torres, he doesn't rate over Fullmer at Middleweight. Not even close to it.

[klompton]

Clabby
Thil
McGoorty
Klaus
Conn

That's the only ones I would say are totally out of line.

Uhh out of line how? Clabby was a virtuoso boxer/puncher. One of the great unsung fighters of history. Thil is one of the most criminally underrated MW champs who would have eatin Fullmer alive. If Fullmer thought Robinson's left hook was hard Id hate to see what he thought he when he tried to muscle around Eddie McGoorty. Nobody fought on the inside like Klaus. Fullmers strength and dirty tactics would have made Klaus right at home. He would have Fullmer crying for a Utah ref by the fifth round. Conn was a terrific MW who moved up prematurely. The fact that you discount guys like Torres and Conn makes me wonder if you know anything about their time as a MW at all. The idea that you would put Klaus on there is laughable. Fullmer was a very very very poor mans Klaus. Everything Fullmer did Klaus did better with the exception that at the end of Klaus' career he didnt train.

[klompton]

I'm quite aware of torres, he doesn't rate over Fullmer at Middleweight. Not even close to it.

Why?

Im always curious as to what people see in Fullmer past his record? Because once you actually start watching those fights hes pretty hard to reconcile as being anywhere near the top of the MW ladder. We are talking about the deepest division in history.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Clabby
Thil
McGoorty
Klaus
Conn

That's the only ones I would say are totally out of line.

Uhh out of line how? Clabby was a virtuoso boxer/puncher. One of the great unsung fighters of history. Thil is one of the most criminally underrated MW champs who would have eatin Fullmer alive. If Fullmer thought Robinson's left hook was hard Id hate to see what he thought he when he tried to muscle around Eddie McGoorty. Nobody fought on the inside like Klaus. Fullmers strength and dirty tactics would have made Klaus right at home. He would have Fullmer crying for a Utah ref by the fifth round. Conn was a terrific MW who moved up prematurely. The fact that you discount guys like Torres and Conn makes me wonder if you know anything about their time as a MW at all. The idea that you would put Klaus on there is laughable. Fullmer was a very very very poor mans Klaus. Everything Fullmer did Klaus did better with the exception that at the end of Klaus' career he didnt train.

One thing Klaus didn't do better than Fullmer was compile his resume. You're obviously biased against Fullmer and are tossing out any name that you can think of. I wouldn't pick Gen3e over Billy in a fight, but he was the more accomplished Middleweight by a wide margin. If you think I don't know anything about the names I mentioned, feel free to stop quoting me.

[Goodnight, Irene]

How many family members of yours did Fullmer murder?

Some of these criticisms smack of contempt.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm quite aware of torres, he doesn't rate over Fullmer at Middleweight. Not even close to it.

Why?

Im always curious as to what people see in Fullmer past his record? Because once you actually start watching those fights hes pretty hard to reconcile as being anywhere near the top of the MW ladder. We are talking about the deepest division in history.

I rate fighters based on their record, not on my opinion of what would happen in a mythical fight. Gene is underrated to begin with, talking to you he is the most underrated fighter in Boxing history.

[klompton]

I'm quite aware of torres, he doesn't rate over Fullmer at Middleweight. Not even close to it.

Why?

Im always curious as to what people see in Fullmer past his record? Because once you actually start watching those fights hes pretty hard to reconcile as being anywhere near the top of the MW ladder. We are talking about the deepest division in history.

I rate fighters based on their record, not on my opinion of what would happen in a mythical fight. Gene is underrated to begin with, talking to you he is the most underrated fighter in Boxing history.

Thats fine if your basing it on his record, but a record is a piece of paper. It doesnt tell the whole story. Go watch some of those fights you obviously havent seen where Fullmer is getting every advantage, every benefit of the doubt, and still cheating to win then tell me where he ranks...

[beaujack]

Frank Klaus
Mike O'Dowd

Someone needs to slap me for neglecting to mention those two...

Your slapped !

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Why?

Im always curious as to what people see in Fullmer past his record? Because once you actually start watching those fights hes pretty hard to reconcile as being anywhere near the top of the MW ladder. We are talking about the deepest division in history.

I rate fighters based on their record, not on my opinion of what would happen in a mythical fight. Gene is underrated to begin with, talking to you he is the most underrated fighter in Boxing history.

Thats fine if your basing it on his record, but a record is a piece of paper. It doesnt tell the whole story. Go watch some of those fights you obviously havent seen where Fullmer is getting every advantage, every benefit of the doubt, and still cheating to win then tell me where he ranks...

I've seen everything that's available. It's always cute when someone resorts to the the you obviously haven't seen fights argument to back their biased takes.

You're far too irrational to begin trying to rank Fullmer. Take a deep breath and move onto a different topic where you have something to offer.

Torres having a greater Middleweight resume than Fullmer is beyond hilarious.

[Boilermaker]

I rate fighters based on their record, not on my opinion of what would happen in a mythical fight. Gene is underrated to begin with, talking to you he is the most underrated fighter in Boxing history.

Thats fine if your basing it on his record, but a record is a piece of paper. It doesnt tell the whole story. Go watch some of those fights you obviously havent seen where Fullmer is getting every advantage, every benefit of the doubt, and still cheating to win then tell me where he ranks...

I've seen everything that's available. It's always cute when someone resorts to the the you obviously haven't seen fights argument to back their biased takes.

You're far too irrational to begin trying to rank Fullmer. Take a deep breath and move onto a different topic where you have something to offer.

Torres having a greater Middleweight resume than Fullmer is beyond hilarious.

So what is his best filmed performance then?

[klompton]

In my opinion it would be the second Basilio bout or the Paret bout. But once again those are opponents who are clearly smaller than him which allowed him to control them easier than a full fledged MW. The second Basilio bout was also a horrible stoppage. He was going to win that bout but he was never going to stop Basilio.

[Ambling Alp]

I never understood the notion that Basilio was not a full fledged middleweight. He lookes almonst exactly the same size as Fullmer. He was an inch shorter. Basilio proved in two fights againsrt Robinson that he was great a t middleweight. Fullmer almso beat guys like Spider Webb, Rocky Castellani,Florentino Fernandez, and Tiger Jones at middleweight. He alos had draws against Giardello and Dick Tiger, who most people would have easily in their top 25. Don't see how anybody can watch the Robinson and Basilio fights and not think Fullmer was a great fighter.

btw-Jose Torres beat a grand total of zero middleweight contenders in his career. Don Fullmer was the only one that was even notable. He did fight Paret and only got a draw. Torres got stopped by Fernandez. Fullmer beat both of these guys.

[Ambling Alp]

Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight.

Greb has plenty of wins under the limit.

[klompton]

Skeeter McClure and Jose Gonzalez were both contenders, as were Don Fullmer and Gomeo Brennan (although this was fought at catchweights as Torres moved up).


"Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight."

This is a weak argument to begin with when discussing natural middleweights, however, one doesnt need to qualify the greatness of Greb, and Fitz over Fullmer based on what they accomplished above MW. I never rated McTigue. Furthermore I dont know ANYONE who wouldnt rate Fitz and Greb ahead of Fullmer. That notion is almost laughable.

And no, Basilio was not a full fledged or great MW. And no his win over Robinson did not prove that. He went 50/50 in two fights against a past his prime (THIRTY SIX YEAR OLD) ex WW. In fact Basilio had only 10 fights at MW. Not including Robinson 5 of those fights were against current welterweights. If you include Robinson that makes seven fights against current or former WWs. His only three fights against natural MWs were Fullmer and Pender. All of which he lost, all of which he was either dropped or stopped.

You can say Fullmer "also beat" but dont put Webb and Fernandez in that sentence as he had to win gift decisions over those two. Lets also not pretend that Webb, Fernandez, Castellani, and Jones were great fighters either. Castellani was at the tail end of his career and Jones had lost 9 of his previous fifteen before his first Fullmer fight and would win one out of seven beginning with next Fullmer fight. That one victory came against a washed up Gavilan. Hardly stuff of legends to build up Fullmers resume. As for those "draws" against Tiger and Giardello: Those, along with that BS draw against Robinson were garbage and another example of Fullmers wonderfully friendly officiating out west. Against Giardello Fullmer butted a good 4 or 5 times in the first three rounds with nothing done by the ref. When Fullmer came in for another but Giardello got in under him and Fullmer essentially ran his head into Giardellos then turned around crying to the ref. After that all Fullmer would do was grab and rabbit punch without a warning. What a joke. Against Tiger Fullmer KNEW he was getting a gift. He was scared shitless and ran the entire time. Tiger made the fight, landed the punches, and beat Fullmer at every aspect of the game and they called it a draw. Afterwards Tiger was so angry he complained Gene knew exactly what he was doing by running and refusing to fight.

The thing is that the people who talk all this garbage about Fullmer havent seen half of what exists on him. Go watch the above fights and tell me he wasnt beaten by Webb, Fernandez, Robinson (in the draw, or that he shouldnt have been DQd for unbelievably flagrant fouling in the first fight), Giardello, and Tiger. Tell me his second fight with Basilio wasnt stopped prematurely. You cant.

Now tell me again how Fullmer was better than Greb and Fitz...

[Boilermaker]

Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight.

From memory, Dick Ellis, Bill Slavin and Mick Dooley are good heavyweights who were beaten by the middleight Fitz. The results of Paddy Slavin and Tom Lees fights are not ever listed anywhere but it seems clear that at the very least, Fitz didnt lose these figths and he certainly wasnt over the middleweight limit for them. Boxrec, seems to list the Ruhlin fight as a middleweight result, although this would seem doubtful if their other weights are correct. Quite a few of fitz other wins were over heavyweights, including one win over the South African Heavyweight champion (whose name escapes me at the moment) and I am fairly sure that Joe Godfrey was the World Coloured Heavyweight champion when Fitz KOd him as a middleweight. In reality, there was no weigh in recorded for most of these fights and we are guessing which fights were and werent over the limit but one thing is for sure, Fitz was capable of trimming down to the middleweight limit if he had to (same goes for McTigue and Greb if they had to). Fitzsimmons, by the way, weighed 158 lbs against Corbett according to the only person who actually weighed him for the fight that we know of, although there are quite a few who guessed by eye that he might weight 5 or 6 lbs more than this. They could have had better eyes back in the day and been able to guess weights more accurately by looks, but i tend to think it is better to go with the estimate by the person who actually weighed him, even if that person is biased (although is there a real reason for him to be biased in relation to weights, one way or the other).

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Fullmer certainly wasn't better than Greb. But I would rate him over Fitzsimmons at 60 without hesitation.

The Fernandez fight wasn't a gift, very grueling and close fight. Much closer than the demolition job Florentino did on Torres.

[raylawpc]

Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight.

From memory, Dick Ellis, Bill Slavin and Mick Dooley are good heavyweights who were beaten by the middleight Fitz. The results of Paddy Slavin and Tom Lees fights are not ever listed anywhere but it seems clear that at the very least, Fitz didnt lose these figths and he certainly wasnt over the middleweight limit for them. Boxrec, seems to list the Ruhlin fight as a middleweight result, although this would seem doubtful if their other weights are correct. Quite a few of fitz other wins were over heavyweights, including one win over the South African Heavyweight champion (whose name escapes me at the moment) and I am fairly sure that Joe Godfrey was the World Coloured Heavyweight champion when Fitz KOd him as a middleweight. In reality, there was no weigh in recorded for most of these fights and we are guessing which fights were and werent over the limit but one thing is for sure, Fitz was capable of trimming down to the middleweight limit if he had to (same goes for McTigue and Greb if they had to). Fitzsimmons, by the way, weighed 158 lbs against Corbett according to the only person who actually weighed him for the fight that we know of, although there are quite a few who guessed by eye that he might weight 5 or 6 lbs more than this. They could have had better eyes back in the day and been able to guess weights more accurately by looks, but i tend to think it is better to go with the estimate by the person who actually weighed him, even if that person is biased (although is there a real reason for him to be biased in relation to weights, one way or the other).

1. You are thinking of George Godfrey. Joe Godfrey was a run-of-the-mill middleweight.

2. The idea Fitz weighed 158 v. Corbett is a myth perpetrated by Fitz (you know, the same guy who told us he had 300 fights - 200 of which we have not found a trace of evidence). The person who weighed him became his biographer and friend.

[Boilermaker]

Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight.

From memory, Dick Ellis, Bill Slavin and Mick Dooley are good heavyweights who were beaten by the middleight Fitz. The results of Paddy Slavin and Tom Lees fights are not ever listed anywhere but it seems clear that at the very least, Fitz didnt lose these figths and he certainly wasnt over the middleweight limit for them. Boxrec, seems to list the Ruhlin fight as a middleweight result, although this would seem doubtful if their other weights are correct. Quite a few of fitz other wins were over heavyweights, including one win over the South African Heavyweight champion (whose name escapes me at the moment) and I am fairly sure that Joe Godfrey was the World Coloured Heavyweight champion when Fitz KOd him as a middleweight. In reality, there was no weigh in recorded for most of these fights and we are guessing which fights were and werent over the limit but one thing is for sure, Fitz was capable of trimming down to the middleweight limit if he had to (same goes for McTigue and Greb if they had to). Fitzsimmons, by the way, weighed 158 lbs against Corbett according to the only person who actually weighed him for the fight that we know of, although there are quite a few who guessed by eye that he might weight 5 or 6 lbs more than this. They could have had better eyes back in the day and been able to guess weights more accurately by looks, but i tend to think it is better to go with the estimate by the person who actually weighed him, even if that person is biased (although is there a real reason for him to be biased in relation to weights, one way or the other).

1. You are thinking of George Godfrey. Joe Godfrey was a run-of-the-mill middleweight.

2. The idea Fitz weighed 158 v. Corbett is a myth perpetrated by Fitz (you know, the same guy who told us he had 300 fights - 200 of which we have not found a trace of evidence). The person who weighed him became his biographer and friend.

George Godfrey (the coloured champion) campained as Joe Godfrey at the time that Fitz fought Joe Godfrey. There was though apparently a middleweight Joe Godfrey (a white fighter from philadelphia from memory) as well, so it isnt 100% clear, although i have seen mention of Fitz defeating the coloured champion also. It is a little unclear and could go either way but i think it more likely than not that it was the coloured champion.

We have been around the Fitz argument. Fitz knew what he weighed and he said he weighed 158. Some papers reported him below 160, some above. none more so than a couple of pounds. no one would ahve known better than Fitz, i doubt he got that wrong. NOt much point in boring everyone with teh same argument, when neither knows and there is only one definite known first hand source, isnt there.

As for the 300 fights, i think it crazy to think that there were no unreported fights. If you think that he only fought a couple of fights in his first couple of years in Timaru for example, i really think you are kidding himself. From memory there is a tour of Rockhampton which remains unrecorded. And again, you surely dont think that their were not a lot of fights unrecorded at Foleys Hotel. Obviously it is hard to know what were exhibitions and what were real fights. As for the actual number, well it is probably most likely that fitz himself didnt keep exact counts. However it is interesting to note that without counting them all up there seems pretty close to 300 fights (probably more) listed on his record at Cyberboxing Zone and they left off a lot of "exhibitions" that are regularly discovered. I dare say that quite a few of those exhibitions were indeed considered real fights even if Fitz probably did ease up from time to time. I do think the number is nothing more than estimate that was probalby a little high.

[Ambling Alp]

Skeeter McClure and Jose Gonzalez were both contenders, as were Don Fullmer and Gomeo Brennan (although this was fought at catchweights as Torres moved up).


"Wanted to comment on Fitzsimmons, Greb, and McTigue at middleweight.
Many of Greb and Mctigues wins over lightheavyweights and heavyweights took place when they were well over the middlweight limit. All of Fitzsimmons wins of note over heavyweights or light heavyweights were when he himself was well over the middleweight limit.

When a fighter is 4, 5,6 pounds or more over 160, he is not really a middleweight at that time.
It should count when rating Fitz, Greb or McTigue in a pound for pound sense, or if you are rating them at lightheavyweight, or even heavyweight if they beat a heavyweight. However, these wins should not be factored in when rating them as a middleweight."

This is a weak argument to begin with when discussing natural middleweights, however, one doesnt need to qualify the greatness of Greb, and Fitz over Fullmer based on what they accomplished above MW. I never rated McTigue. Furthermore I dont know ANYONE who wouldnt rate Fitz and Greb ahead of Fullmer. That notion is almost laughable.

And no, Basilio was not a full fledged or great MW. And no his win over Robinson did not prove that. He went 50/50 in two fights against a past his prime (THIRTY SIX YEAR OLD) ex WW. In fact Basilio had only 10 fights at MW. Not including Robinson 5 of those fights were against current welterweights. If you include Robinson that makes seven fights against current or former WWs. His only three fights against natural MWs were Fullmer and Pender. All of which he lost, all of which he was either dropped or stopped.

You can say Fullmer "also beat" but dont put Webb and Fernandez in that sentence as he had to win gift decisions over those two. Lets also not pretend that Webb, Fernandez, Castellani, and Jones were great fighters either. Castellani was at the tail end of his career and Jones had lost 9 of his previous fifteen before his first Fullmer fight and would win one out of seven beginning with next Fullmer fight. That one victory came against a washed up Gavilan. Hardly stuff of legends to build up Fullmers resume. As for those "draws" against Tiger and Giardello: Those, along with that BS draw against Robinson were garbage and another example of Fullmers wonderfully friendly officiating out west. Against Giardello Fullmer butted a good 4 or 5 times in the first three rounds with nothing done by the ref. When Fullmer came in for another but Giardello got in under him and Fullmer essentially ran his head into Giardellos then turned around crying to the ref. After that all Fullmer would do was grab and rabbit punch without a warning. What a joke. Against Tiger Fullmer KNEW he was getting a gift. He was scared shitless and ran the entire time. Tiger made the fight, landed the punches, and beat Fullmer at every aspect of the game and they called it a draw. Afterwards Tiger was so angry he complained Gene knew exactly what he was doing by running and refusing to fight.

The thing is that the people who talk all this garbage about Fullmer havent seen half of what exists on him. Go watch the above fights and tell me he wasnt beaten by Webb, Fernandez, Robinson (in the draw, or that he shouldnt have been DQd for unbelievably flagrant fouling in the first fight), Giardello, and Tiger. Tell me his second fight with Basilio wasnt stopped prematurely. You cant.

Now tell me again how Fullmer was better than Greb and Fitz...

Klompton-I did not say that I rated Fullmer over Greb, Fitzsimmons, and McTigue. More than one person had mentioned them and I just wanted to make a seperate point.
btw- don't rate Fullmer over Greb. I do rate him over Fitzsimmons, but I think that is debatable. McTigue is not remotely arguable.

I am not pretending that Webb, Fernandez, Castellani, and Jones were great fighters. However they were all good fighters who were in the top 10 (in a very strong era for middleweights) at the time that Fullmer fought them.
Yes Robinson was past his best when he fought Basilio. However he was still a great fighter (still the champion) and was still a world class fighter for several more years. Basilio showed that he could adapt to middleweight. In a weak era, he could have been the middleweight champion for several years.

I don't disagree that the referee could have let Basilio continue in the 2nd fight. But it was not really that big a difference if he would had let it continue. Fullmer was ahead and would have won the decision. (Though I suppose you would have said it was a bad decision.)

Obviously you don't like Fullmer. That is clouding your judgement. Sometimes the guys we don't like were great.