Forty-one year ago today . . .

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ah, silly me, that was unforgettable. I did just read a proposal of Mayweather/Hagler. Even past the fact that you would need a Pride of Lions to chase Floyd into the ring. To expect that of him would be slightly ambitious.

[Giancarlo]

Frazier was a beast in that fight. He was devil possessed. I wish sometimes instead of Ali as an opponent that night should have been the great George Foreman. Would Foreman beat Smoking Joe the same way he did 2 years later in Jamaica? I think not. Frazier was a machine!

[BoxBuzz]

If Ali would have followed his defeat to Frazier with nothing more accomplished, he would not be a legend. He would have been looked at as pretty much a loudmouth only, and a greater fighter in Frazier came along and shut his mouth for good. He would not be considered in the league with Jeffries, Jackson, Dempsey, Louis and Marciano. IMHO.

[yancey]

Amiably disagree, BoxBuzz.

SI had it right that Ali was already a legend going into the FOTC. Of course they were wrong in calling it "the end" of the legend.

Ali going into the FOTC was widely considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, heavyweight champions of all time. My college circle at the time, all fairly knowledgeable sports fans, all thought I was way out on a limb for picking Frazier to win on a fairly late knockout. Maybe it was my generation growing up and seeing all those 60's TV bouts plus his over the top personality, but Ali had a really big following in lots of different circles.

Enough for "legendary" status going into the FOTC? Yes, definitely. IMNSHO.

If he had retired immediately after the FOTC, sure, his reputation would have taken a hit, but I'm quite sure his place in heavyweight boxing history would have advanced back over time. If nothing else, his apologists would have made it so. After all, in their eyes, Ali was indeed "The Greatest" and got taken down by "The Man".

It is not like Frazier annihilated him in the FOTC. Ali fought an extremely creditable fight that night.

[BoxBuzz]

Possibly, but for my money, and for many who weren't impressed with his yakking, it was what he accomplished from the Frazier Knockdown, forward that cemented it. I really think his "legendary" status would have been pretty well wrapped up and put away if he would have retired at that time. He would have a lop sided reputation as a very good fighter who could talk a bit better than he could fight. At the end of his career, I think it became a dead heat between those two talents. lol

[Ambling Alp]

"I'm not a big Ali fan but people rarely mention his inactivity as possibly being a factor in this result, didn't he only have something like 2 fights in 4 years when they fought?" Controversial

I don't see how you can say that the layoff is RARELY mentioned.

The layoff gets mentioned ALL the time. It is talking point NUMERO UNO by Ali fans on why Ali got whipped on 3/8/71.

The fact is that in the six months leading up to the FOTC, Ali had 18 rounds of activity in the ring, Frazier had 2.

6 months is not really that big of a layoff. Actually it was less than 5 months since Frazier's last fight. That is pretty normal between title defenses.
When you are off for more than 3 and a half years, it is going to take you quite a while (if ever) to be as sharp as you were before.

In the last 4 years before Ali-Frazier, Ali had 18 rounds (2 fights)
Frazier had 67 rounds. (12 fights.)
Little reason why Frazier would not be sharp as ever. Little reason to expect Ali to be.

[hhaehre]

Little reason why Frazier would not be sharp as ever. Little reason to expect Ali to be.

Yet he was, as evident by the actual fight.

[yancey]

Little reason why Frazier would not be sharp as ever. Little reason to expect Ali to be.

Yet he was, as evident by the actual fight.

[BoxBuzz]

It wasn't until Ali was knocked down by Joe, that he genuinely returned to boxing.

[yancey]

It wasn't until Ali was knocked down by Joe, that he genuinely returned to boxing.

It took Joe knocking Ali on his ass to fully get Ali's attention to the matter and reinstate his resolve, right?



Too bad Jerry Quarry, Ringo Bonavena, and the great Joe Frazier aren't still around so you could inform them that Ali was just going through the motions with them.

[raylawpc]

It wasn't until Ali was knocked down by Joe, that he genuinely returned to boxing.

It took Joe knocking Ali on his ass to fully get Ali's attention to the matter and reinstate his resolve, right?



Too bad Jerry Quarry, Ringo Bonavena, and the great Joe Frazier aren't still around so you could inform them that Ali was just going through the motions with them.

Excellent post. Buzz is a great guy, but, when it comes to the Lip, he has definitely drank the kool-aide!

[jezzamundo]

That last image is extreme. Not that Frazier looked or felt any healthier, mind.

I know this is a minority view, but I found this a more exciting, greater clash than Manila. The skill level was higher, and the scores very tight on my card.

I agree wholeheartedly. I personally have the fight even going into the 15th, unless I score one of the earlier rounds a 10-8 to Frazier. I have Ali up 9-5 in rounds after the 14th in Manilla, which while being action packed, is in my opinion the least competitive (although still very competitive and action packed) fight of their trilogy.

[Goodnight, Irene]

That last image is extreme. Not that Frazier looked or felt any healthier, mind.

I know this is a minority view, but I found this a more exciting, greater clash than Manila. The skill level was higher, and the scores very tight on my card.

I agree wholeheartedly. I personally have the fight even going into the 15th, unless I score one of the earlier rounds a 10-8 to Frazier. I have Ali up 9-5 in rounds after the 14th in Manilla, which while being action packed, is in my opinion the least competitive (although still very competitive and action packed) fight of their trilogy.

I scored exactly the same way (1st fight). It was closer on my card than the official ones. Winning the final round wouldve given Ali the victory for me, although it would have been against the run of momentum, which was totally with Frazier in the latter stages of the battle.

[raylawpc]

That last image is extreme. Not that Frazier looked or felt any healthier, mind.

I know this is a minority view, but I found this a more exciting, greater clash than Manila. The skill level was higher, and the scores very tight on my card.

I agree wholeheartedly. I personally have the fight even going into the 15th, unless I score one of the earlier rounds a 10-8 to Frazier. I have Ali up 9-5 in rounds after the 14th in Manilla, which while being action packed, is in my opinion the least competitive (although still very competitive and action packed) fight of their trilogy.

I scored exactly the same way (1st fight). It was closer on my card than the official ones. Winning the final round wouldve given Ali the victory for me, although it would have been against the run of momentum, which was totally with Frazier in the latter stages of the battle.

I scored the fight on March 8, 1971 from my seat at the Oklahoma City Civic Center Auditorium watching it on closed circuit TV: Frazier - 9; Ali - 6. Under a 10-point must system, 144-140, Frazier (I would have scored round 15 as 10-8, Frazier).

So it wasn't that close to me.

P.S.: I have two rules for scoring fights:

1. I only score fights that I see live. (That way, I'm not influenced by what I see and read post-fight, and the scores are MY scores, not some politically correct BS).

2. I don't rescore fights. (The judges don't get to . . . why should I?)

[Goodnight, Irene]

Dont like either rule, personally, but to each his own.

[raylawpc]

Dont like either rule, personally, but to each his own.

Fair enough. Yet you still felt the need to comment and criticize it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You posted it.

Isnt that what its up there for? To be commented on, and possibly criticised?

[Giancarlo]

You posted it.

Isnt that what its up there for? To be commented on, and possibly criticised?

and if necessary followed up with the offer of a "straightener"

[raylawpc]

You posted it.

Isnt that what its up there for? To be commented on, and possibly criticised?

Actually, no. I put it up there to keep some Bozo from saying, "Yeah, but how do you score it now?"

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'll have to remember to use my powers of telepathy before I post next time, then D

In all seriousness though, that is a very monastic approach to the fight game. You're not ever tempted to score any bout you didnt catch live, or to do one over? How do you even recall scores over the years and decades?

[raylawpc]

I'll have to remember to use my powers of telepathy before I post next time, then D

In all seriousness though, that is a very monastic approach to the fight game. You're not ever tempted to score any bout you didnt catch live, or to do one over? How do you even recall scores over the years and decades?

Please do . . .

In answer to your questions:

Nope.

Nope . . . never.

I don't always remember the scores. (The last fight I scored was Pac-Marquez, and I can't remember how I scored that except I scored it for Pac.) But I remember Ali-Frazier I . . . in fact, I even remember how I scored it round by round. (Of course, it helps that I never threw away the envelope I wrote my round-by-round scores on while watching the fight . . . )

It just occurred to me . . . that envelope is older than you!

[Goodnight, Irene]

If it was made the year of the FOTC, thirteen years older.

The last time I scored the FOTC mustve been around 2-3 years ago, and oddly enough, I think I can recall most of the rounds as well. Definitely recall giving the first five to Ali in a sweep, but then only two of the next ten. That was still enough to make it dead-even going into the fateful 15th...

[raylawpc]

If it was made the year of the FOTC, thirteen years older.

The last time I scored the FOTC mustve been around 2-3 years ago, and oddly enough, I think I can recall most of the rounds as well. Definitely recall giving the first five to Ali in a sweep, but then only two of the next ten. That was still enough to make it dead-even going into the fateful 15th...

You scored it more than once? Did you think you got it wrong the other times?

I scored it:

1 - Ali
2 - Ali
3 - Frazier
4 - Frazier
5 - Ali
6 - Frazier
7 - Frazier
8 - Frazier
9 - Ali
10 - Ali
11 - Frazier
12 - Frazier
13 - Frazier
14 - Ali
15 - Frazier

Frazier, 9-6.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Well I remember all my scores being close to one another --- this was the only way I scored it twice, and the most recent, from about four scorings.

It was quite clearly a Frazier win, yet I could not see it so wide as the judges.

[yancey]

I agree wholeheartedly. I personally have the fight even going into the 15th, unless I score one of the earlier rounds a 10-8 to Frazier. I have Ali up 9-5 in rounds after the 14th in Manilla, which while being action packed, is in my opinion the least competitive (although still very competitive and action packed) fight of their trilogy.

I scored exactly the same way (1st fight). It was closer on my card than the official ones. Winning the final round wouldve given Ali the victory for me, although it would have been against the run of momentum, which was totally with Frazier in the latter stages of the battle.

I scored the fight on March 8, 1971 from my seat at the Oklahoma City Civic Center Auditorium watching it on closed circuit TV: Frazier - 9; Ali - 6. Under a 10-point must system, 144-140, Frazier (I would have scored round 15 as 10-8, Frazier).

So it wasn't that close to me.

P.S.: I have two rules for scoring fights:

1. I only score fights that I see live. (That way, I'm not influenced by what I see and read post-fight, and the scores are MY scores, not some politically correct BS).

2. I don't rescore fights. (The judges don't get to . . . why should I?)

Ray, do you recall how much a closed-circuit ticket was for the FOTC?

I was a nearly broke college student back on 3/8/71 and just couldn't afford a ticket.

Seems to me a closed-circuit ticket was somewhere around 35 bucks in Baton Rouge, LA that night. I could be off a bit one way or the other.

I did see a condensed replay in a local theatre a week or two later for somewhere around 4 to 5 bucks.