Is Calzaghe in your top 5 super middleweights?

[Bricks]

if not where would you rank him amongst the all-time super middleweights? He definitely makes mine with great wins over hopkins, kessler, roy jones, bika, and lacy

Hopkins and Jones were at 175.

I rank him #1. All considered (and there aint that much to consider, in terms of either his CV or the divisions history), I think he deserves it.

Jones and Toney would have pretty handily beaten him, though. Jones would border on an ass kicking.

Toney wouldnt beat Calzaghe clearly, at his best he was far too inconsistent to have an easy time with Joe. In fact if James fought Joe like he did some of his opponents back in the day, I could see Joe taking a close decision. A volume puncher with decent defence and a good chin like Joe would trouble James

Respectfully Iran Barkley at his swarming best was a volume puncher and so was Prince Charles Williams....Toney clinically took them out...the Toney of 160-168lbs at his absolute best systematically takes apart Calzaghe. He was just too fast, razor quick reflexes, skills that Calzaghe never ever faced in the ring.

I agree the sheer volume of time as champ and his overall Cv make him a no1 based on accomplishments but that kind of criteria has always been bogus to me. Ive always gone with rating no 1 which man on his best night would beat the other one on his best night.The number of defences etc should be a reflection somewhat of that fact.

I could see on their night, the Hearns of 168, Toney, Jones jnr,all beating Joe.

Barkley was a tough more skilled than people think guy and I think he would have given Joe a world of trouble. I could see Joe breaking his hands on Iran's tough head. The Calzaghe of pre 2002 whose hands werent mortally damaged might have been able to land a major bomb early on the tough New Yorker, but the more experienced and gutsy later Calzaghe would have to rely on his workrate and Iran was a man able to match anyones work rate. Still think Joe wins though.

Benn its difficult to say....when u remember Collins making him quit twice in what were two short yet tough brawls you can see Joe doing the same with greater ease. Of course that Benn we are led to beleive was shot. I never beleived that to be the case physically, more mentally he was shot. Who knows with a 1994 Benn. Its difficult to compare guys like a mid 40s Hopkins, Kessler, Brewer, Lacey with a Benn , Toney, Jones jnr of 1994

[keithmoonhangover]

What did Toney do at Super Middle? Beat a washed up Iran Barkley, a Chris Eubank victim and a weight drained Charles Williams.

Am I missing something, other than getting him completely dominated by Roy Jones.

Eubank did much more at super middle.

[Roco]

Hopkins and Jones were at 175.

I rank him #1. All considered (and there aint that much to consider, in terms of either his CV or the divisions history), I think he deserves it.

Jones and Toney would have pretty handily beaten him, though. Jones would border on an ass kicking.

Toney wouldnt beat Calzaghe clearly, at his best he was far too inconsistent to have an easy time with Joe. In fact if James fought Joe like he did some of his opponents back in the day, I could see Joe taking a close decision. A volume puncher with decent defence and a good chin like Joe would trouble James

Respectfully Iran Barkley at his swarming best was a volume puncher and so was Prince Charles Williams....Toney clinically took them out...the Toney of 160-168lbs at his absolute best systematically takes apart Calzaghe. He was just too fast, razor quick reflexes, skills that Calzaghe never ever faced in the ring.

I agree the sheer volume of time as champ and his overall Cv make him a no1 based on accomplishments but that kind of criteria has always been bogus to me. Ive always gone with rating no 1 which man on his best night would beat the other one on his best night.The number of defences etc should be a reflection somewhat of that fact.

I could see on their night, the Hearns of 168, Toney, Jones jnr,all beating Joe.

Barkley was a tough more skilled than people think guy and I think he would have given Joe a world of trouble. I could see Joe breaking his hands on Iran's tough head. The Calzaghe of pre 2002 whose hands werent mortally damaged might have been able to land a major bomb early on the tough New Yorker, but the more experienced and gutsy later Calzaghe would have to rely on his workrate and Iran was a man able to match anyones work rate. Still think Joe wins though.

Benn its difficult to say....when u remember Collins making him quit twice in what were two short yet tough brawls you can see Joe doing the same with greater ease. Of course that Benn we are led to beleive was shot. I never beleived that to be the case physically, more mentally he was shot. Who knows with a 1994 Benn. Its difficult to compare guys like a mid 40s Hopkins, Kessler, Brewer, Lacey with a Benn , Toney, Jones jnr of 1994

I could also see a 160lb Hagler besting a 168/175 Joe.

[flatnoseflynn]

Top 3 without a doubt.

[elmersalsa]

if not where would you rank him amongst the all-time super middleweights? He definitely makes mine with great wins over hopkins, kessler, roy jones, bika, and lacy

Hopkins and Jones were at 175.

I rank him #1. All considered (and there aint that much to consider, in terms of either his CV or the divisions history), I think he deserves it.

Jones and Toney would have pretty handily beaten him, though. Jones would border on an ass kicking.

I totally agree

This division is weak and young to begin with. At the time of the 90s, where the 168lbs division was at its peak, there were some fights in there, but not enough fights that the public wanted to see. The great Roy Jones, Jr should have fought more quality guys in there.

[Bricks]

What did Toney do at Super Middle? Beat a washed up Iran Barkley, a Chris Eubank victim and a weight drained Charles Williams.

Am I missing something, other than getting him completely dominated by Roy Jones.

Eubank did much more at super middle.

Barkley became washed up after this beatdown....the Barkley he beat was still very dangerous. Likewise Prince Charles who had been such a long term champion at a higher weight became washed up after such a hard beating from Toney....

I guess it comes down to how we interpret these things. Id interpret Toney putting on such an incredible show of skills and speed against a bigger and long reigning champ in Williams as mighty impressive....you choose to interpret as a weight drained shot fighter losing to some nondescript guy as if the fact Toney fought sensationally in the fight had little to do with the outcome...thats your choice and many others may agree with you and disagree with the interpretation I have chosen.
Eubank imo did not do so much more at SM he didnt beat anyone of the ilk of those two foes right there..... and I say that although Eubanks is one of my favourites . Guys like Close, Rocchigiani, Wharton and Watson do not compare to Prince Charles and Barkley, and Chris only drew with Benn and I had him losing that rematch by a point much as I had him losing a few more of those "wins".

If anyone was weight drained in a fight it was Toney against Jones....that was a zombie in there no semblance of the real Toney and its no suprise he was fighting at 190-200 lbs not too long after.

[keithmoonhangover]

What did Toney do at Super Middle? Beat a washed up Iran Barkley, a Chris Eubank victim and a weight drained Charles Williams.

Am I missing something, other than getting him completely dominated by Roy Jones.

Eubank did much more at super middle.

Barkley became washed up after this beatdown....the Barkley he beat was still very dangerous. Likewise Prince Charles who had been such a long term champion at a higher weight became washed up after such a hard beating from Toney....

I guess it comes down to how we interpret these things. Id interpret Toney putting on such an incredible show of skills and speed against a bigger and long reigning champ in Williams as mighty impressive....you choose to interpret as a weight drained shot fighter losing to some nondescript guy as if the fact Toney fought sensationally in the fight had little to do with the outcome...thats your choice and many others may agree with you and disagree with the interpretation I have chosen.
Eubank imo did not do so much more at SM he didnt beat anyone of the ilk of those two foes right there..... and I say that although Eubanks is one of my favourites . Guys like Close, Rocchigiani, Wharton and Watson do not compare to Prince Charles and Barkley, and Chris only drew with Benn and I had him losing that rematch by a point much as I had him losing a few more of those "wins".

If anyone was weight drained in a fight it was Toney against Jones....that was a zombie in there no semblance of the real Toney and its no suprise he was fighting at 190-200 lbs not too long after.

Barkley was washed up, but yes, still dangerous if your name was Darrin Van Horn - this is the same guy that Nigel Benn completely stuffed in one round.

Charles Williams was a very good operator, but he was was weghing the lightest he had in 14 years!

But yer these two were better than the unbeaten and very skilled Rocchigiani? Give your head a shake.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

[BoxBuzz]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

Your tone.....it's unkind, and lacking in any socially redeeming nuances.


Perhaps you should reflect on your wicked mannerisms, and donate to a local charity, in order to atone for your insensitivity.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

Your tone.....it's unkind, and lacking in any socially redeeming nuances.


Perhaps you should reflect on your wicked mannerisms, and donate to a local charity, in order to atone for your insensitivity.

If you notice the wild fluctuations in my tone, you may begin to see a pattern...to uniformly blanket it as indiscriminately unpleasant is lesser thinking.

It may appear unpleasant to you, and some others --- that does not mean it is unpleasant period. I just happen to have been raised believing respect is earned, not dolled out arbitrarily like candy at a School Fete.

[keithmoonhangover]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

Your tone.....it's unkind, and lacking in any socially redeeming nuances.


Perhaps you should reflect on your wicked mannerisms, and donate to a local charity, in order to atone for your insensitivity.

If you notice the wild fluctuations in my tone, you may begin to see a pattern...to uniformly blanket it as indiscriminately unpleasant is lesser thinking.

It may appear unpleasant to you, and some others --- that does not mean it is unpleasant period. I just happen to have been raised believing respect is earned, not dolled out arbitrarily like candy at a School Fete.

Don't flatter yourself Irene, I don't want your respect. On these boards, you are childish, petty and rude. If you hadn't heard, manners don't cost anything. I'm guessing doing a good impression of a complete twat, if so, keep it up.

[keithmoonhangover]

Your tone.....it's unkind, and lacking in any socially redeeming nuances.


Perhaps you should reflect on your wicked mannerisms, and donate to a local charity, in order to atone for your insensitivity.

If you notice the wild fluctuations in my tone, you may begin to see a pattern...to uniformly blanket it as indiscriminately unpleasant is lesser thinking.

It may appear unpleasant to you, and some others --- that does not mean it is unpleasant period. I just happen to have been raised believing respect is earned, not dolled out arbitrarily like candy at a School Fete.

Don't flatter yourself Irene, I don't want your respect. On these boards, you are childish, petty and rude. If you hadn't heard, manners don't cost anything. I'm guessing you like doing a good impression of a complete twat, if so, keep it up.

[Goodnight, Irene]

In addition to learning (if thats what we can call it) about Boxing, you answer posts directed at other people, and quote yourself?

Quite the multi-tasker, arent you? I have manners a-plenty (like Buzz, you are self-absorbed enough to believe how you're treated applies to everyone), but if you post something stupefyingly moronic, steeped in a festering stew of ignorance and idiocy, well, dont complain about swimming with sharks if you throw chum into the water.

[keithmoonhangover]

In addition to learning (if thats what we can call it) about Boxing, you answer posts directed at other people, and quote yourself?

Quite the multi-tasker, arent you? I have manners a-plenty (like Buzz, you are self-absorbed enough to believe how you're treated applies to everyone, but if you post something stupefyingly moronic, steeped in a festering stew of ignorance and idiocy, well, dont complain about swimming with sharks if you throw chum into the water.

Really classy post Irene. Top class.

[BoxBuzz]

G.I. I was only taking aim at one sole solitary comment when I spouted.

As you've noted, you can often add quite positively to the ambiance of any setting.

You go especially well with beige spackle backdrops.

[keithmoonhangover]

In addition to learning (if thats what we can call it) about Boxing, you answer posts directed at other people, and quote yourself?

Quite the multi-tasker, arent you? I have manners a-plenty (like Buzz, you are self-absorbed enough to believe how you're treated applies to everyone), but if you post something stupefyingly moronic, steeped in a festering stew of ignorance and idiocy, well, dont complain about swimming with sharks if you throw chum into the water.

Ever thought about using a boxing forum to talk about boxing and not slinging personal insults?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

I thought they were one in the same for quite a while.

[Bricks]

What did Toney do at Super Middle? Beat a washed up Iran Barkley, a Chris Eubank victim and a weight drained Charles Williams.

Am I missing something, other than getting him completely dominated by Roy Jones.

Eubank did much more at super middle.

Barkley became washed up after this beatdown....the Barkley he beat was still very dangerous. Likewise Prince Charles who had been such a long term champion at a higher weight became washed up after such a hard beating from Toney....

I guess it comes down to how we interpret these things. Id interpret Toney putting on such an incredible show of skills and speed against a bigger and long reigning champ in Williams as mighty impressive....you choose to interpret as a weight drained shot fighter losing to some nondescript guy as if the fact Toney fought sensationally in the fight had little to do with the outcome...thats your choice and many others may agree with you and disagree with the interpretation I have chosen.
Eubank imo did not do so much more at SM he didnt beat anyone of the ilk of those two foes right there..... and I say that although Eubanks is one of my favourites . Guys like Close, Rocchigiani, Wharton and Watson do not compare to Prince Charles and Barkley, and Chris only drew with Benn and I had him losing that rematch by a point much as I had him losing a few more of those "wins".

If anyone was weight drained in a fight it was Toney against Jones....that was a zombie in there no semblance of the real Toney and its no suprise he was fighting at 190-200 lbs not too long after.

Barkley was washed up, but yes, still dangerous if your name was Darrin Van Horn - this is the same guy that Nigel Benn completely stuffed in one round.

Charles Williams was a very good operator, but he was was weghing the lightest he had in 14 years!

But yer these two were better than the unbeaten and very skilled Rocchigiani? Give your head a shake.

Perhaps I ought to repeat it ... Barkley was coming off a long layoff, and major detached retina surgery when he took on Nigel Benn. Barkley was a far superior fighter to any SM Eubanks beat including Rocchigiani.

Yeah Barkley was dangerous if your name was Darn Van Horn..... and he was also very dangerous around the same time against a fella named Tommy Hearns....I'm sure you have heard of him Keith? the Hearns of late 92 although fading was no one's patsy.

Roccigiani may have been unbeaten around that time but he hadnt fought anyone with a heartbeat and was protected in Germany...the guy was beating c list americans, in one of the weakest divisions in boxing before a b level guy like Eubanks turned up to ruin his unbeaten record....

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think Joe would give Roy trouble on his best day if he got out of the early rounds upright and confident.

[Bricks]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

Making fun of those competing in the Special Olympics is not very smart, than again none of us should expect any different from an ill educated loutish online thug,who I have it on good authority was conceived when his father fell out of the dunnie after too many tinnies and mistook a kangaroo for a sheila!! D

On a more serious note I think it's time Boxbuzz did something about this troll and his best friend who derail normal thread debate on any thead they see in BOTP and insult those with an opinion different to theirs.

Look at Keith and I, we disagree but there are no insults or name calling.Just a debate.

The membership of this forum has dwindled massively since the Urine and Saad show was allowed to take over , and other members are routinely insulted and bullied away by these two keyboard warriors....while Boxbuzz sits there and does nothing.

[NazNaci1]

There are some special insults flying around today. Quality stuff.

[Bricks]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

I thought they were one in the same for quite a while.

Yes because you are a unhinged paranoid individual with nothing better to do than imagine things two different people to be the same person! Get a life!

[Bricks]

Mugabi vs Keith. Its like BoxRec's own Special Olympics.

Your tone.....it's unkind, and lacking in any socially redeeming nuances.


Perhaps you should reflect on your wicked mannerisms, and donate to a local charity, in order to atone for your insensitivity.

If you notice the wild fluctuations in my tone, you may begin to see a pattern...to uniformly blanket it as indiscriminately unpleasant is lesser thinking.

It may appear unpleasant to you, and some others --- that does not mean it is unpleasant period. I just happen to have been raised believing respect is earned, not dolled out arbitrarily like candy at a School Fete.

@ a piss stained crocodile dundee type bushman going on about higher and lesser thinking! Your idea of higher thinking is when your sheila leaves an extra can of 4xxx in the fridge for you when you come home from a days work in the bush!

[BoxBuzz]

G.I. We indeed are diverse here! With many different "value systems" from which we base our communication.

I come from the school where humanity is revered first. And any conversationalist is assumed to be at the least "benign" unless proven otherwise. So communication can be engaged respectfully at most any level. Regardless of degree of passion, knowledge or...even edge.

Once reverence is out of the way, it makes sense to me that our respect for others may wax and wane, as we assess the nimble mindedness, degree of passion, demonstration of courtesy, ability to engage, degree of focus.....and willingness to allow others to be.....well, different, eccentric, perhaps even erroneous (in our opinions). etc.

A mean spirit?....well that's a matter for opinion as well. And can certainly have an impact on the degree of respect someone may or may not be able to earn with others, along the way.

For the record: I don't think you are mean spirited, haven't seen too many of that sort around. But your willingness to throw out personal barbs is what it is. And hard for some to ignore. Your not alone, and I have dabbled in the art myself. I'll ask to be forgiven if I think I've gone too far, here and there.

It takes all kinds.

And we have a rule about personal attacks. I always encourage everybody to wrap your brain around the meaning of the rule....and observe it as much as possible.

.......Oh.....and Ottke......don't forget him........he shouldn't be so disrespected. A perfect record he had! Perhaps the Rolls Royce of the division?

[Bricks]

Sven Ottke will always hold a special place amongst my days as a boxing fan. I remember coming home from my first days working after university and watching an ottke fight back in those far off days of 1999-2002.

Coverage of boxing was all but dead on free to air British TV so those Tuesday nights every other month when they showed Ottke take on a quality foe in front of a packed out Arena in Germany were special.

He was a great technician, a lot of posters in the British forum dislike my respect for him but how not to respect a man who turned pro so very very late and after such a glorious amateur career, and than wins the title after a couple of handfuls of fights and defends it so often against the best of a admittedly poor division at the time and than retires undefeated.

The so called robberies against Reid and Glen Johnson and Brewer were not robberies at all to those who actually watched them.

No he didnt fight Lucas, Beyer or Calzaghe or go after a RJ jnr. But Sven was a small SM and Joe apart Lucas and Beyer were not going to beat him.