Martinez v. Kalambay.

[Rover]

Sumbu's often overlooked; unfortunately for him, he got caught with that Nunn left, and that's what he's most remembered for; however, he was quite good. Beat McCallum, Barkley, Graham, etc. I think Martinez would take a competitive fight on points.

[Rover]

if it's the Kalambay from the first McCallum fight then I gotta side with him. never saw McCallum im his prime be beaten that easily

Martinez faster, though; I think he'd be harder to outbox than a McCallum (more skilled) or a Barkley.

[Rover]

i'm a huge Martinez fan (#2 current favorite fighter behind B-Hop) but he's struggled against Williams (first fight), Pavlik (middle rounds), Barker & Macklin. he struggles against fighters who can box well behind straight punches.

i really cannot see (if they're both on their best night) see sergio winning. think he'd make it very competitive but he's never faced some one as skilled and well-rounded as a prime Kalambay (great movement with feet, shoulder movement, glove positioning, great use of the jab, good timing with counters, good use of combinations).

michael nunn KO'ing kalambay in the first round is still one of the most shocking results ive ever witnessed in the sport's history.

Williams had far more volume than Kalambay, and Martinez didn't struggle in the rematch.
I disagree that he struggled with Barker; had it 8-2 or 9-1.
He lost four rounds to Pavlik; Kalambay lost 4 rounds to Barkley.
As for Macklin, Martinez took over after the seventh; he has the ability to take fights over. Kalambay also never faced anyone with that type of speed--except Nunn.

[giacomino]

Was a huge fan of Kalamby at the time and thought he was terribly underrated, but have to agree with Rover and would favor Marinez to win a UD something like 7-5 or 8-4 on speed and volume punching.

[fatcity69]

I think Martinez is an excellent boxer and admire the way he has clawed his way to the top of the tree but I think Kalambay would just be too tricky for Sergio. The way to beat Sergio is to outbox him. If you think Kalambay never fought anyone of Sergios speed then watch his fights with Herol Graham, whose style was actually very simular to Sergios, but who had greater speed than Martinez. Kalambay was the only man along with Mccallum who could handle a peak Graham who was like greased lightnin in his prime and avoided by the champions of his time like the plague.

[Rover]

I think Martinez is an excellent boxer and admire the way he has clawed his way to the top of the tree but I think Kalambay would just be too tricky for Sergio. The way to beat Sergio is to outbox him. If you think Kalambay never fought anyone of Sergios speed then watch his fights with Herol Graham, whose style was actually very simular to Sergios, but who had greater speed than Martinez. Kalambay was the only man along with Mccallum who could handle a peak Graham who was like greased lightnin in his prime and avoided by the champions of his time like the plague.

Jackson also handled Graham.
What champions avoided Graham? Not Kalambay, Jackson, or McCallum.
And I think Martinez was faster than Graham and hit harder also.

[fatcity69]

Hagler wanted no part of Graham, the only world champion to fight Grham in his prime was Maccallum, who was himself avoided. Graham fought Kalambay for the Europeon title not world title.
You think Martinez is faster than Graham? how many fights of Graham have you seen? he was far more slippery and had more body movement than Martinez. Back to Kalambay, his record speaks for itself, Collins, Mccallum, Graham, Barkley, Kalule, Dewitt, etc I think his opposition ranks above Martinez over all and he could deal wthl all styles. Also I think Kalambay aside from his loss to Nunn had the sturdier chin compared to Martinez... against Barkley he at times went toe to toe and out punched the blade... and this was a peak Barkley. Kalambay definately edges Martinez for me, but thats no disgrace.

[Rover]

i'm a huge Martinez fan (#2 current favorite fighter behind B-Hop) but he's struggled against Williams (first fight), Pavlik (middle rounds), Barker & Macklin. he struggles against fighters who can box well behind straight punches.

i really cannot see (if they're both on their best night) see sergio winning. think he'd make it very competitive but he's never faced some one as skilled and well-rounded as a prime Kalambay (great movement with feet, shoulder movement, glove positioning, great use of the jab, good timing with counters, good use of combinations).

michael nunn KO'ing kalambay in the first round is still one of the most shocking results ive ever witnessed in the sport's history.

Williams had far more volume than Kalambay, and Martinez didn't struggle in the rematch.
I disagree that he struggled with Barker; had it 8-2 or 9-1.
He lost four rounds to Pavlik; Kalambay lost 4 rounds to Barkley.
As for Macklin, Martinez took over after the seventh; he has the ability to take fights over. Kalambay also never faced anyone with that type of speed--except Nunn.

i didn't keep a card but if i probably would have had it even or barker slightly ahead before the stoppage. martinez looked highly ineffective in that one

Barker ahead of Martinez?
Haven't heard anyone with that score before. (I know it's an estimation--either that or a draw--but still...

[Rover]

Hagler wanted no part of Graham, the only world champion to fight Grham in his prime was Maccallum, who was himself avoided. Graham fought Kalambay for the Europeon title not world title.
You think Martinez is faster than Graham? how many fights of Graham have you seen? he was far more slippery and had more body movement than Martinez. Back to Kalambay, his record speaks for itself, Collins, Mccallum, Graham, Barkley, Kalule, Dewitt, etc I think his opposition ranks above Martinez over all and he could deal wthl all styles. Also I think Kalambay aside from his loss to Nunn had the sturdier chin compared to Martinez... against Barkley he at times went toe to toe and out punched the blade... and this was a peak Barkley. Kalambay definately edges Martinez for me, but thats no disgrace.

Aside from the loss to Nunn? I'd say you can't discount that fight in the chin department.
Hagler had one thing on his mind at the end of his career: Leonard.
You said champions avoided Graham. I understand that Kalambay beat him for the Euro title (and then fought for the world title). He was still a champion who didn't avoid Graham.
There was no difference between the Graham of the McCallum fight and the Graham of the Jackson fight--except that Graham got caught by a bomb.

[fatcity69]

Barker did well against Martinez because he boxed him and didnt give him much to counter against, I think he was probably ahead on points at halfway through the fight but not by the end. Barker hasnt really got the credit he deserves for his performance against Sergio, not as fan freindly as Macklins performance but I think he gave Sergio more of a headache overall...

[fatcity69]

Hagler wanted no part of Graham, the only world champion to fight Grham in his prime was Maccallum, who was himself avoided. Graham fought Kalambay for the Europeon title not world title.
You think Martinez is faster than Graham? how many fights of Graham have you seen? he was far more slippery and had more body movement than Martinez. Back to Kalambay, his record speaks for itself, Collins, Mccallum, Graham, Barkley, Kalule, Dewitt, etc I think his opposition ranks above Martinez over all and he could deal wthl all styles. Also I think Kalambay aside from his loss to Nunn had the sturdier chin compared to Martinez... against Barkley he at times went toe to toe and out punched the blade... and this was a peak Barkley. Kalambay definately edges Martinez for me, but thats no disgrace.

Aside from the loss to Nunn? I'd say you can't discount that fight in the chin department.
Hagler had one thing on his mind at the end of his career: Leonard.
You said champions avoided Graham. I understand that Kalambay beat him for the Euro title (and then fought for the world title). He was still a champion who didn't avoid Graham.
There was no difference between the Graham of the McCallum fight and the Graham of the Jackson fight--except that Graham got caught by a bomb.

The Nunn loss is something that can happen to any fighter, Sumbu was caught cold imo also he was at the end of his career. Aside from that it was a great punch. But to judge his chin fairly you need to look at his career overall and Kalambay showed a far better chin than Martinez, in fact I dont think he had ever been floored prior to the Nunn fight, while Martinez has been floored quite a few times in his career. Kalambay fought a lot of good and great punchers and was never bothered in the chin department by any of them.
I could go on for days bout Graham. Against Jackson he was giving a boxing lesson but was underorders by his manager to box in a more 'fanfreindly' manner which saw him take the role of the aggressor more and ultimatley get tagged in a manner that had he stuck to his earlier blueprint style he never would have been touched by Jackson imo.

[Bricks]

if it's the Kalambay from the first McCallum fight then I gotta side with him. never saw McCallum im his prime be beaten that easily

Totally agree. In the late 80s Kalambay seemingly hit an indian summer late in his career and anyman that could outbox guys like Herol Graham and Mike Mccallum and score wins over Barkley and Collins is something to be reckoned with.

Like you say a real shame that he was humiliated with one perfect punch on the biggest stage of his life plus he was inconsistent earlier in his career so cant really be compared with the mid level big guns

[Rover]

Hagler wanted no part of Graham, the only world champion to fight Grham in his prime was Maccallum, who was himself avoided. Graham fought Kalambay for the Europeon title not world title.
You think Martinez is faster than Graham? how many fights of Graham have you seen? he was far more slippery and had more body movement than Martinez. Back to Kalambay, his record speaks for itself, Collins, Mccallum, Graham, Barkley, Kalule, Dewitt, etc I think his opposition ranks above Martinez over all and he could deal wthl all styles. Also I think Kalambay aside from his loss to Nunn had the sturdier chin compared to Martinez... against Barkley he at times went toe to toe and out punched the blade... and this was a peak Barkley. Kalambay definately edges Martinez for me, but thats no disgrace.

Aside from the loss to Nunn? I'd say you can't discount that fight in the chin department.
Hagler had one thing on his mind at the end of his career: Leonard.
You said champions avoided Graham. I understand that Kalambay beat him for the Euro title (and then fought for the world title). He was still a champion who didn't avoid Graham.
There was no difference between the Graham of the McCallum fight and the Graham of the Jackson fight--except that Graham got caught by a bomb.

The Nunn loss is something that can happen to any fighter, Sumbu was caught cold imo also he was at the end of his career. Aside from that it was a great punch. But to judge his chin fairly you need to look at his career overall and Kalambay showed a far better chin than Martinez, in fact I dont think he had ever been floored prior to the Nunn fight, while Martinez has been floored quite a few times in his career. Kalambay fought a lot of good and great punchers and was never bothered in the chin department by any of them.
I could go on for days bout Graham. Against Jackson he was giving a boxing lesson but was underorders by his manager to box in a more 'fanfreindly' manner which saw him take the role of the aggressor more and ultimatley get tagged in a manner that had he stuck to his earlier blueprint style he never would have been touched by Jackson imo.

Kalambay had beaten McCallum approximately a year before the Nunn fight, but he was at the end of his career then? He'd won his title in October 1987, but he was at the end of his career a year and a half later (not having taken any beatings in his three defenses)?
As for Graham/Jackson, the "under orders" line cracks me up. Graham was fighting for the world title. It was Graham's choice to fight as he did, and he got KO'd. Three rounds do not a fight make.
I've never seen Martinez KO'd like Kalambay was.

[fatcity69]

Its well known that Graham changed his style under Barney eastwood, again I ask how many of Herols fights have you seen?. Again regarding the Nunn loss you cant judge a fighters chin by one result... would you say roberto Duran was chinny beacuse he was koed by Hearns in 2 rounds?. You need to look at the whole career... Kalambay fought many big punchers during his career and was I believe never floored till the nunn fight... (he certainly wasnt floored in any of the fights I have of him)
Martinez has been floored in a number of fights by lesser punchers than Kalambay faced. Im not just picking fault with Martinez, simply stating why Id give Kalambay an edge if he fought Martinez. Overall he fought better competition in his career and was the stonger more complete fighter imo. Anyone who handled a peak Mccallum and Graham like Kalambay did does not deserve to be dismissed as you seem to be doin.

[fatcity69]

And Graham was koed in the 5th not the 3rd!.
How many fights have you actually seen of Kalambay and Graham?.

[Rover]

Its well known that Graham changed his style under Barney eastwood, again I ask how many of Herols fights have you seen?. Again regarding the Nunn loss you cant judge a fighters chin by one result... would you say roberto Duran was chinny beacuse he was koed by Hearns in 2 rounds?. You need to look at the whole career... Kalambay fought many big punchers during his career and was I believe never floored till the nunn fight... (he certainly wasnt floored in any of the fights I have of him)
Martinez has been floored in a number of fights by lesser punchers than Kalambay faced. Im not just picking fault with Martinez, simply stating why Id give Kalambay an edge if he fought Martinez. Overall he fought better competition in his career and was the stonger more complete fighter imo. Anyone who handled a peak Mccallum and Graham like Kalambay did does not deserve to be dismissed as you seem to be doin.

Dismissed? I've done nothing of the sort.
I've seen Graham v. Kalambay I, McCallum and Jackson (the relevant fights here--I also saw Graham/Brewer).
To answer your Duran question, I wouldn't consider Duran chinny at lightweight or welterweight to be sure. Also, Hearns, unlike Nunn, was known as a huge puncher.
Martinez's KD's that I've seen (Macklin, Williams, Pavlik) were all flash KD's like those of Hamed. He didn't appear hurt at any time during them.
As for Graham and style, that has nothing to do with prime. Graham didn't appear to have slowed down at all against Jackson until he got caught with that right.
What was Graham's best victory, BTW?

[Bricks]

Herol Graham was just as fast as Martinez. Hagler didnt avoid Graham Lol there was just no money in such a fight. Hagler at that time wanted Hearns and Sugar Ray. What did he want with a Graham. he would have outboxed and stopped Graham similar to what Hopkins did to a prime Eastman he would have exposed him and gone one step higher and stopped him.

Kalambay takes Martinez on points for sure. His slick footwork and feints were classical. A beautiful boxer in full flight. Martinez is not in the league of a McCallum

[Rover]

Herol Graham was just as fast as Martinez. Hagler didnt avoid Graham Lol there was just no money in such a fight. Hagler at that time wanted Hearns and Sugar Ray. What did he want with a Graham. he would have outboxed and stopped Graham similar to what Hopkins did to a prime Eastman he would have exposed him and gone one step higher and stopped him.

Kalambay takes Martinez on points for sure. His slick footwork and feints were classical. A beautiful boxer in full flight. Martinez is not in the league of a McCallum

Not a jr. middle McCallum. A middle McCallum wasn't as good; barely got by Collins, Graham, and Kalambay (in the rematch). Should have lost both fights to Toney.
Granted, McCallum faced better comp at middle than did Martinez, but McCallum at middle was not McCallum at jr. middle. He had one dominant performance: Watson (where I thought he nearly shut Watson out).
I actually would favor McCallum over Martinez; Sergio likes to trade, and I think McCallum's bodywork would net him a decision by winning the late rounds.
But Martinez was faster than McCallum, and that would serve him well v. Kalambay. He also has a high volume and can really crack. (No one ever did that to Williams.)

[fatcity69]

I dont really think you can knock Mccallum at 160 becasuse he had close fights with Collins, Kalambay Graham and Toney... look at the fighters these men were. Also the Watson fight was at 160 not 154. Collins is another from that era who was and is crinimally underrated and would give anyone around now (including Martinez) a very very tough night. I rate Collins a better boxer than both Barker and Macklin. One thing we have to consider with these present vs past matchups is that the talent pool has on the whole vastly diluted over the past 10 years... the fighters of the 80s and 90s had to be special just to make it into the top 10... the competition was that much tougher.

[Rover]

I dont really think you can knock Mccallum at 160 becasuse he had close fights with Collins, Kalambay Graham and Toney... look at the fighters these men were. Also the Watson fight was at 160 not 154. Collins is another from that era who was and is crinimally underrated and would give anyone around now (including Martinez) a very very tough night. I rate Collins a better boxer than both Barker and Macklin. One thing we have to consider with these present vs past matchups is that the talent pool has on the whole vastly diluted over the past 10 years... the fighters of the 80s and 90s had to be special just to make it into the top 10... the competition was that much tougher.

I know the Watson fight was at 160; sorry if I insinuated somehow it was at jr. middle.
You're reminding me now of Reggie Johnson.

[Bricks]

Absolutely spot on fatcity back in the 70's and 80s and very early part of the 90s the MW talent pool was phenomenal. of course in the early 90s the 168 division took off and that diluted things somewhat.

iron man Hagler crushed all dissent like some middlweight dictator but guys like hamsho and obelmejias were good fighters. Still the superfights with the Fab 4 aside I think Hagler beat some of his toughest men in the late 70s on the way up.

look at the post Hagler shake up 87-89
Nunn, Tate, McCallum,Kalambay,Graham,Olajide,J Jackson,Hearns,barkley,roldan,Duran and good guys like Sims,Benn, Watson and Dewitt & Hilton were on the outside frindges. You also had world class top 20-25 guys like Sanderline Williams and Jorge Amparo who gave everyone a fight. Than in 90-91 Mclellan,Collins, Eubanks, Toney, Johnson and Roy Jones Jnr emerged.....there is no where near the depth or talent today or since the late 90s.

[Rover]

Absolutely spot on fatcity back in the 70's and 80s and very early part of the 90s the MW talent pool was phenomenal. of course in the early 90s the 168 division took off and that diluted things somewhat.

iron man Hagler crushed all dissent like some middlweight dictator but guys like hamsho and obelmejias were good fighters. Still the superfights with the Fab 4 aside I think Hagler beat some of his toughest men in the late 70s on the way up.

look at the post Hagler shake up 87-89
Nunn, Tate, McCallum,Kalambay,Graham,Olajide,J Jackson,Hearns,barkley,roldan,Duran and good guys like Sims,Benn, Watson and Dewitt & Hilton were on the outside frindges. You also had world class top 20-25 guys like Sanderline Williams and Jorge Amparo who gave everyone a fight. Than in 90-91 Mclellan,Collins, Eubanks, Toney, Johnson and Roy Jones Jnr emerged.....there is no where near the depth or talent today or since the late 90s.

Hilton never did much above jr. middle though, did he?

[Ezzard]

Nunn's first round KO was amazing!

But if they fought 100 times it would never have happened again. Reminds me a little of Carter KO1 Griffith...

[Bricks]

Absolutely spot on fatcity back in the 70's and 80s and very early part of the 90s the MW talent pool was phenomenal. of course in the early 90s the 168 division took off and that diluted things somewhat.

iron man Hagler crushed all dissent like some middlweight dictator but guys like hamsho and obelmejias were good fighters. Still the superfights with the Fab 4 aside I think Hagler beat some of his toughest men in the late 70s on the way up.

look at the post Hagler shake up 87-89
Nunn, Tate, McCallum,Kalambay,Graham,Olajide,J Jackson,Hearns,barkley,roldan,Duran and good guys like Sims,Benn, Watson and Dewitt & Hilton were on the outside frindges. You also had world class top 20-25 guys like Sanderline Williams and Jorge Amparo who gave everyone a fight. Than in 90-91 Mclellan,Collins, Eubanks, Toney, Johnson and Roy Jones Jnr emerged.....there is no where near the depth or talent today or since the late 90s.

Hilton never did much above jr. middle though, did he?

True. he had that damn attitude all the talented but lazy Hiltons had, and once he won the title so young at 154 and had already destroyed a legend like Wilfred Benitez, the hunger wasnt there and he retired very young after losing to Dewitt (was doing coke for that fight).....but the point being, a peak 154 Hilton today would he be any less of a hype job than Saul Alvarez. He used to kill himself to make 154 coming from 190 so thats why i include him in the 160 ranks of talented MWs of that day.

[Rover]

Absolutely spot on fatcity back in the 70's and 80s and very early part of the 90s the MW talent pool was phenomenal. of course in the early 90s the 168 division took off and that diluted things somewhat.

iron man Hagler crushed all dissent like some middlweight dictator but guys like hamsho and obelmejias were good fighters. Still the superfights with the Fab 4 aside I think Hagler beat some of his toughest men in the late 70s on the way up.

look at the post Hagler shake up 87-89
Nunn, Tate, McCallum,Kalambay,Graham,Olajide,J Jackson,Hearns,barkley,roldan,Duran and good guys like Sims,Benn, Watson and Dewitt & Hilton were on the outside frindges. You also had world class top 20-25 guys like Sanderline Williams and Jorge Amparo who gave everyone a fight. Than in 90-91 Mclellan,Collins, Eubanks, Toney, Johnson and Roy Jones Jnr emerged.....there is no where near the depth or talent today or since the late 90s.

Hilton never did much above jr. middle though, did he?

True. he had that damn attitude all the talented but lazy Hiltons had, and once he won the title so young at 154 and had already destroyed a legend like Wilfred Benitez, the hunger wasnt there and he retired very young after losing to Dewitt (was doing coke for that fight).....but the point being, a peak 154 Hilton today would he be any less of a hype job than Saul Alvarez. He used to kill himself to make 154 coming from 190 so thats why i include him in the 160 ranks of talented MWs of that day.

And Benitez, of course, was shot by then. I just think that if you're going to be included as part of middleweight talent, you should've accomplished something at middle. That's like calling Khaosai one of the best bantams of the 80s.