The forgotten story of...

[misterpunch]

i read that earlier and its a very well written and sound article, the match up though - you can hardly call it a fight, (although some of robin reids bouts have been less aggresive), was ridiculous. i saw it in the early 70s and i couldnt get my head around so pointless a spectacle.

[HomicideHenry]

I think the premise of the event wasn't ridiculous, the idea was innovative in many ways, and we use simulators almost in every facet of life today via PS3, XBox360, etc. however the computers are still far off the mark from making accurate predictions; remember the latest computers predicted that Hatton would go 11 rounds with Pacquiao before getting kayoed? The true result was a 2nd round kayo. The computer can only analyse numbers, it can't 'understand' the human element. The real experts in boxing will come closer to the truth than any machine, I'd personally love to see a panel of historians go up against the IBM system WATSON in predicting fights and I garuntee the human brain would probably defeat the machine 8/10 predictions. Take last nights fights for example, I think I was the only guy among my friends who predicted Johnathan Banks would kayo Seth Mitchell. I think a machine only knows what it is told, so therefore all it can see is that an undefeated record means more than someone with a loss or two and that isnt true; anyone who knows real boxing or real fighting can tell you there are alot of men and women in the sport with undefeated records who cant really fight worth a damn and thats something a machine can't understand. Now as for the validity of Woroner's entire series during 1967 and of course the 'Super Fight', I dont agree with many of the predictions considering many of the old-timers on the list fought with different conditions, rules, etc. than the more modern men and I can say that even though NCR was used to simulate for NASA it was well off the mark on some of these fights (Willard lasting 14 rounds with Louis for example). However, at the same time, same token, the Ali of that time was an unsettled question, outside of Liston and Patterson there was no real validity to his career in terms of great opposition and his style was so unorthodox people assumed his tactics to be out of fear rather than as a system, etc. Now of course we know different. HOWEVER, that all being said, even Ali admitted many years later on a couple occasions that in his opinion the man who would have given him his toughest fight would have been Marciano, and that it was possible Marciano could have out pointed him because of Rocky's high volume punching (averaging 80-110 punches a round) and this wasnt a biased opinion because Marciano was his friend it was based on Ali's assumptions and knowledge as a fighter himself, he truly did believe Marciano was better than Joe Frazier.

[misterpunch]

my point was that the idea of choreographing ali and rocky was ridiculous - your post about simulators is bang on however.
the big BUT, as you also say, is the human element. but if they could eliminate that then boxers would not be needed to fight. it could all be done with robots. maybe the whole idea is accurately predicting bouts that could never happen but the arguments we have about those are worth their weight in gold.

[HomicideHenry]

Alot of the choreography was average/mediocre at best; however its times like round 8, 10, 11 that you see the two guys actually rip into eachother. There were those moments where both men tested eachother just for the sake of it.

[Brutu]

Forgotten?forgotten by whom?
The Justin Beiver fans?
In 2005 a special 2 dvd set of it was released.
Although I think the footage from the original theatrical release was way overused in the other documenty segments
on the second dvd,it kind of spoiled the origianl version.
I think it was filmed at night at the Fifth street gym
about a month before Rocky Marciano was killed.
I also noticed that Marciano didnt really fight like he normally did
in it.
which was always moving his upper body around like a tank turrent.
But I figured out why he may have fought that way for the movie.
Vanity,he was sporting a toupe and Ali at one point was
obviosly trying to flick it up with a jab,which he did
in one of the rounds.
Thats what made Marciano angry,and years later Ali said that he could still feel those punches to his arms.
Marciano fought more like Artuo Godoy in it I think(both were trained by Charlie Goldman I believe
and had the same manager too, Al Weil back in the day).

[Ezzard]

The computer can only analyse numbers, it can't 'understand' the human element. The real experts in boxing will come closer to the truth than any machine, I'd personally love to see a panel of historians go up against the IBM system WATSON in predicting fights and I garuntee the human brain would probably defeat the machine 8/10 predictions.

Remember that all simulations are...are models of real life interaction. Whcih has been around for a long, long time. Bookies use such models and they usually end up beating the experts over time. But not always.

[HomicideHenry]

Forgotten?forgotten by whom?
The Justin Beiver fans?
In 2005 a special 2 dvd set of it was released.
Although I think the footage from the original theatrical release was way overused in the other documenty segments
on the second dvd,it kind of spoiled the origianl version.
I think it was filmed at night at the Fifth street gym
about a month before Rocky Marciano was killed.
I also noticed that Marciano didnt really fight like he normally did
in it.
which was always moving his upper body around like a tank turrent.
But I figured out why he may have fought that way for the movie.
Vanity,he was sporting a toupe and Ali at one point was
obviosly trying to flick it up with a jab,which he did
in one of the rounds.
Thats what made Marciano angry,and years later Ali said that he could still feel those punches to his arms.
Marciano fought more like Artuo Godoy in it I think(both were trained by Charlie Goldman I believe
and had the same manager too, Al Weil back in the day).

I did notice in the film footage of that too, he fought 60% like he did. I think in combination between the script, the age differentials, etc. Marciano fought a more 'stand up fight' than he would have. Marciano had a tactic where he would shove his shoulder into his opponent and come off with a hook, I didn't see that anywhere in the 'Super Fight'. Then again, it does make you wonder, considering the speed Ali had whether Marciano would have fought him like that; personally I dont think so, the flashes of heat now and then in the 'fight' showed how the two really would of fought eachother, and it would have been a war.

[Brutu]

I think the mistake was trying to make Marciano look like he was still 33 years old.
They should have had it as him 45 years old, making a comeback after 15 years to challenge Ali.
Also IMOP the cinematography on it looked mostly strickly rank amateur.
Looks like an intern at a local Miami television station did most of it.
Filmed from too high up of an angle looking down, it made Marciano look even shorter particularly his legs distorted.
There appears to have been a professional cinematographer used in the close up shots tho.
I like the shot of Marciano punching toward the camera.
You could sense the power of his punches.

[man]

i for one believe computers are great for many, many
things, boxing simulations not being among them. this
is all about the moment, the luck to land a certain punch
and so on and so forth.

couldn't care less about any of these ...

[macaca]

I think the premise of the event wasn't ridiculous, the idea was innovative in many ways, and we use simulators almost in every facet of life today via PS3, XBox360, etc. however the computers are still far off the mark from making accurate predictions; remember the latest computers predicted that Hatton would go 11 rounds with Pacquiao before getting kayoed? The true result was a 2nd round kayo. The computer can only analyse numbers, it can't 'understand' the human element. The real experts in boxing will come closer to the truth than any machine, I'd personally love to see a panel of historians go up against the IBM system WATSON in predicting fights and I garuntee the human brain would probably defeat the machine 8/10 predictions. Take last nights fights for example, I think I was the only guy among my friends who predicted Johnathan Banks would kayo Seth Mitchell. I think a machine only knows what it is told, so therefore all it can see is that an undefeated record means more than someone with a loss or two and that isnt true; anyone who knows real boxing or real fighting can tell you there are alot of men and women in the sport with undefeated records who cant really fight worth a damn and thats something a machine can't understand. Now as for the validity of Woroner's entire series during 1967 and of course the 'Super Fight', I dont agree with many of the predictions considering many of the old-timers on the list fought with different conditions, rules, etc. than the more modern men and I can say that even though NCR was used to simulate for NASA it was well off the mark on some of these fights (Willard lasting 14 rounds with Louis for example). However, at the same time, same token, the Ali of that time was an unsettled question, outside of Liston and Patterson there was no real validity to his career in terms of great opposition and his style was so unorthodox people assumed his tactics to be out of fear rather than as a system, etc. Now of course we know different. HOWEVER, that all being said, even Ali admitted many years later on a couple occasions that in his opinion the man who would have given him his toughest fight would have been Marciano, and that it was possible Marciano could have out pointed him because of Rocky's high volume punching (averaging 80-110 punches a round) and this wasnt a biased opinion because Marciano was his friend it was based on Ali's assumptions and knowledge as a fighter himself, he truly did believe Marciano was better than Joe Frazier.

Wanna play chess dickface?

[HomicideHenry]

I think the mistake was trying to make Marciano look like he was still 33 years old.
They should have had it as him 45 years old, making a comeback after 15 years to challenge Ali.
Also IMOP the cinematography on it looked mostly strickly rank amateur.
Looks like an intern at a local Miami television station did most of it.
Filmed from too high up of an angle looking down, it made Marciano look even shorter particularly his legs distorted.
There appears to have been a professional cinematographer used in the close up shots tho.
I like the shot of Marciano punching toward the camera.
You could sense the power of his punches.

I know myself ages ago I wrote a thread assuming that very same ideal, of had Rocky lived to of seen the result of the computer fight and heard that Ali said "That computer was made in Alabama", and the two men ended up squaring off on the Dick Cavett Show and Marciano saying 'Put your money where your mouth is' and the real fight of the century takes place, with Marciano training three months getting down to 195 pounds to fight Ali, who 'to save face' doesn't train much at all for the fight, which is scheduled for ten rounds; in the end, Marciano gets cut up and shows alot of heart and courage, and even had some flashes of his former self, doing much better than the critics would have thought and Ali giving Marciano praise. Then Marciano dies in the plane crash. The debate of 'Who Was The Greatest' still continues with people saying "Well Marciano came back after fifteen years and went eight rounds with Clay, in his prime he coulda killed this kid", etc.

[Brutu]

Didnt Marciano and Ali appear together on the Merv Griffin show shortly after it was filmed?
How the movie was going to end was still unknown,as several alternative endings had already been filmed
as to not give away what the computer had chosen.
I wonder why the clip from the Merv Griffin show wasnt on the bonus DVD.

[man]

prime for prime this would have been a sad to watch fight
with ali being out of reach all night. if not marciano's, whose
style would be better for the butterfly and bee routine?

of course i am talking about the ali prior to the layoff. not the
one who stood in front of frazier and eat left hooks like cheese
cake. the other day i looked at the cleveland williams fight. man,
what a boxer, and he basically did the same thing to liston.

i see a more and more desperate marciano swinging wilder and
wilder against a slightly out of reach ali, who stings the "0" out
of rocky. that famous "0" is blinding IMHO ...

[HomicideHenry]

Didnt Marciano and Ali appear together on the Merv Griffin show shortly after it was filmed?
How the movie was going to end was still unknown,as several alternative endings had already been filmed
as to not give away what the computer had chosen.
I wonder why the clip from the Merv Griffin show wasnt on the bonus DVD.

They both appeared, at seperate times, on the Dick Cavett Show. I think it should have been used in the DVD bonus features too.

[Brutu]

Im guessing the Merv Griffin and Dick Cavett estate archives wanted to much $$$$$$$$ for the clips.

[HomicideHenry]

I wouldnt even know who the proud owner of those tapes would even be today.

I think what's also missing from the SUPERFIGHT bonus features is the post-story of it all, how Woroner went on a tirade suing Muhammad Ali for defamation, and then later claiming the computer system could put to rest all debates not just boxing, but presidential elections, philosophers vs philosophers, military versus military (Ancient Rome vs George Patton), etc. and how it all blew up in Woroner's face when the computer picked Bob Foster to defeat Joe Frazier.

[Brutu]

When Ali did the trailer for the SUPERIGHT,it looked to me like he was at the lowest point
in his professional career,he looked so depressed.
I remember when there was talk of him actually boxing again either the current HW Champions,Jimmy Ellis,Joe Frazier as regonized by the belts out on
a oil rigg platform or some kind of sea platform out in the Gulf of Mexico or somewhere.

[Adamj1987]

in america rocky won and in the UK where ali was more popular he won on the UK version

[Brutu]

Im America ,people stood in line at the movie houses to watch this"One Night Only"event to see it.
In England they got to watch it on the telly if im not mistaken.

[HomicideHenry]

When Ali did the trailer for the SUPERIGHT,it looked to me like he was at the lowest point
in his professional career,he looked so depressed.
I remember when there was talk of him actually boxing again either the current HW Champions,Jimmy Ellis,Joe Frazier as regonized by the belts out on
a oil rigg platform or some kind of sea platform out in the Gulf of Mexico or somewhere.

There was also talk of a fight between Ali and Joe Frazier on a super carrier aircraft, and I think that was the most logical result considering Ali's passport was revoked, so the oil rig/off shore fights wouldnt of worked. What's so amazing to me is that it took three years before someone realized the state of Georgia had no athletic commission, which paved the way to Ali/Quarry.