Joe Frazier in the 1980s

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Frazier I never rated that high either. He was Ali's kryptonite, but that was the extent of his powers. He was brutally destroyed by Foreman twice, he failed to meet Norton at all, he got a gift over Bonavena in one of their encounters. He could be hurt, he could be outboxed, etc. by even the most fringe of contenders. Stander buckled Frazier's knees momentarily. In his career, his best wins came over Quarry, Foster, Ellis and Mathis. Not too shabby considering the 1970s was arguably the best era in heavyweight history, but Frazier wasn't this incredible fighter that many have made him out to be. I would put Frazier below the top ten, maybe at 11-15. I think its fair to say that Dempsey, Marciano, Louis, Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Holmes, Foreman, were definately ahead of him.

I think it's safe to say that Frazier is definitely ahead of Dempsey. I rate him ahead of Lewis & marciano but I think they're arguable.

I almost agree with you. Here's the issue I have with Dempsey, he wasn't the Jack Dempsey who tore up the division on the way up. When he became champion, he was dominate but he didn't fight the same kind of threats, or as often, as he done prior to winning the championship. Basically it comes down to stats and figures and the inevitable question, if Dempsey wasn't the dominate man in the division in his time, then who was? I pick Dempsey over any man in the division in his era, except for one, and that was Sam Langford.

Now let's look at Joe Frazier. He couldn't beat Foreman, he couldn't beat Ali in the trilogy, we never will know whether he could have beaten Norton, etc. He was certainly not "the man" of his times. Dempsey was, save for Langford. I think because Dempsey has the stronger argument for dominance in his time over Frazier, he is ranked ahead of Joe Frazier.

Competition means much more to me than dominance. Dempsey would have been 0-5 against Ali & Foreman.

[yancey]

'Smokin Joe' is a Certified All-Time Great.

Placing a number position on him is disrespectful, (ie; Top 10, Top 15, Top 20)

The man was great, and 'over-achieved'. He gave his all in every single fight,
except for his last '2' when he was just going through the motions.

That's all I need to know.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd also add that I'd rate his two losses to Ali higher than any wins that many other Heavyweights had. Is it really possible to rate the Thrilla as a negative in his career? How the hell does that even work?

[SamWise72]

Maybe so; the last fight I have to base Frazier on that I've seen is the Thriller, so I could be wrong. Bruno was as strong as almost any heavy, and hit hard enough to do a Foreman on Frazier, if he landed, but he was never a fan of being under pressure and fighting on the back foot. If Joe couldn't bring that any more, he'd have no chance.

[SenorPipino]

Frank Bruno? Frank Bruno??? Are you guys kidding or all Brits? Frazier would destroy the weak chinned, self-doubting Bruno? Remember how he crossed himself repeatedly before facing Tyson a second time? No different against Frazier. Big time freeze.
I don't remember the 80's being looked at fondly in terms of heavyweight talent. A lot of overweight, poorly conditioned alphabet champions.
Frazier would destroy all of them, except for Holmes and Tyson. Holmes wins a split decision, pumping his jab to build up a pretty good lead. Frazier comes on, but falls short in either a 12 or 15 rounder.
Tyson, however, blitzes the slow-starting Frazier in 2 rounds. But he better hope that Smokin' Joe isn't still around after 5.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Senior Pipino,,,,,,,

33 1/2 year-old Joe Frazier "ain't" beating 25 1/2 year-old Frak Bruno.

'Smokin Joe' an 'All-Time Great', but not after Age 32.

At Age 34, he turned down 'big bucks' to fight Kallie Knoetzee, after he got
'lumped up' in Gym Sessions in Philadelphia.

I got news for you, prime Frazier isn't getting knocked down 5 times by Michael Dokes either.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If the nearly 29 year-old Joe Frazier came into the ring the same 'pudgy self' at 215 lbs. like he did against
George Foreman - when he was '29'.

The 24 year-old Michael Dokes, at 6' 2" and 220 lbs. - would 'rattle' Joe early and often. 'Dynamite' with a
record of 26-0-1 (15 KO's) was at his 'peak' - and hand speed would be the 'problem' for Joe - who was
always a slow starter.

After Dokes slows down {Round 8}, 'Smokin Joe' would come roaring back like a Runaway Freight Train,
only to get edged out by a single-point.

Computer Program "Heavyweights of the 60's thru 80's"

Michael Dokes scores Flash Knockdowns in Rounds 1, 2, 3 (2x) and 5.
Joe Frazier has a big scores in Rounds 13 and 15.

Scorecard

Joe Frazier..............8 - 8 - 7 - 10 - 8 ...... 9 - 9 - 10 - 10 - 10 ....... 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 ===== {139}
Michael Dokes........10 -10-10 -10 -10 .....10-10 -- 9 -- 9 --- 9 ........ 9 --- 9 -- 8 --- 9 -- 8 ===== {140}

The 24 year old Dokes was much more of a mover than he was a banger. Joe could weigh 260 pounds and Dokes isn't bouncing him off of the canvas like a ball. That draw was an absolute ass whipping at the hands of Ossie Ocasio. Frazier would have eaten young Dokes alive.

[gilgamesh]

I can't believe I'm seeing a thread where somebody is trying to make a case for Frank Bruno and Michael Dokes beating Joe Frazier. He's leaps and bounds beyond either of those two, and would beat the hell out of them both. They may have their moments, but Joe was on a whole other level than either of them and would knock them both out in less than 10 rounds.

[HomicideHenry]

Competition means much more to me than dominance. Dempsey would have been 0-5 against Ali & Foreman.

That can never be proven, but by you saying so, you rank Dempsey virtually the same as Frazier as Smokin' Joe went 1-4 with Ali and Foreman; and weren't you arguing with me a month or so ago that Ali was so ring rusted, slow, and pitiful when he fought Bonavena? The Bonavena match happened just a few short months before the FOTC. So, by your logic then, Frazier's win over Ali doesn't mean much at all. Or does it, since your using it as a weapon against Jack Dempsey?

[gilgamesh]

Ah...I got you. I get the feeling if he had won the title in 1978 he would've lost it to Larry Holmes by 1979, but that's another debate for another time. Your theory that Frazier would've been shot because he would've been the same age as he was when his career went downhill in his own time. But in this era, he wouldn't have had Ali to compete with (at least not a dangerous one) and he wouldn't get his ass handed to him by George Foreman. Larry Holmes I think would outbox Joe, but I don't see him giving him any kind of vicious beating. It's very conceivable that Joe would've had more years at or near the top had he fought in the 1980's as he wouldn't have had nearly as much stiff competition around him.

[hhaehre]

Senior Pipino,,,,,,,

33 1/2 year-old Joe Frazier "ain't" beating 25 1/2 year-old Frak Bruno.

'Smokin Joe' an 'All-Time Great', but not after Age 32.

At Age 34, he turned down 'big bucks' to fight Kallie Knoetzee, after he got
'lumped up' in Gym Sessions in Philadelphia.

I got news for you, prime Frazier isn't getting knocked down 5 times by Michael Dokes either.

Dokes is just about the most overrated of the 80's fat, strung out, unmotivated "talent" pool of heavy weights. Dokes was not much of a puncher and I doubt he could have dropped even the 81 Frazier that fought Cummings.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Competition means much more to me than dominance. Dempsey would have been 0-5 against Ali & Foreman.

That can never be proven, but by you saying so, you rank Dempsey virtually the same as Frazier as Smokin' Joe went 1-4 with Ali and Foreman; and weren't you arguing with me a month or so ago that Ali was so ring rusted, slow, and pitiful when he fought Bonavena? The Bonavena match happened just a few short months before the FOTC. So, by your logic then, Frazier's win over Ali doesn't mean much at all. Or does it, since your using it as a weapon against Jack Dempsey?

This post is all over the place.

No it can't be proven, that's just the logic that people are using against Frazier. Dempsey never faced competition that great. Tight losses to a fighter like Ali count as a plus in a resume for me. Those two results are as good as any of jack's wins. I'd call it more like 3-2.

No again, I rate Frazier definitively ahead of Dempsey. Pretty funny trying to minimize the "1" when it came against one of the two greatest Heavyweights in history.

No, for a third time, I've never said a word about Ali being rusty. I think he was as good as he ever was in the FOTC and he lost to the better man. Try and use my actual words if you want to bitch about "my logic".

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ah...I got you. I get the feeling if he had won the title in 1978 he would've lost it to Larry Holmes by 1979, but that's another debate for another time. Your theory that Frazier would've been shot because he would've been the same age as he was when his career went downhill in his own time. But in this era, he wouldn't have had Ali to compete with (at least not a dangerous one) and he wouldn't get his ass handed to him by George Foreman. Larry Holmes I think would outbox Joe, but I don't see him giving him any kind of vicious beating. It's very conceivable that Joe would've had more years at or near the top had he fought in the 1980's as he wouldn't have had nearly as much stiff competition around him.

Joe also might have been able to get something done about his eyes.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The (28 1/2 year old) 'Smokin Joe' turned himself into a 'wide swinging / wide open brawler', who left
himself 'wide open' for fast counters.

It wouldn't be Michael Dokes power that dropped Joe, but the speed of the punch. Plus, Dokes would
have a reach advantage - and he was good sized heavyweight at 6' 2" 216 lbs. And, Dokes also
took Mike Weavers hardest punches better than Larry Holmes did.

This ain't Ron Stander (5' 11" and 218 lb.) that 'Smokin Joe' would be fighting.

Tale of the Tape

Joe Frazier
Age....... 28 years, 11 months
Height... 5' 11 1/2"
Weight.. 216 lbs.
Reach.... 73"

Michael Dokes
Age....... 24 years, 3 months
Height... 6' 2"
Weight... 216 lbs.
Reach.... 78"

You can keep trying to sell it, I ain't buying that Dokes puts him anywhere near the canvas. He would be using his legs and speed to avoid combat. You must love that computer.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That thing should be junked. A flash knockdown early? Possible 5 spread out over the first 5 rounds? Not in a million fights.

[yancey]

This the 1,000,001-th fight.

And, nobody would believe that an awkward and clunky 5' 10" - 205 lb. Argentinian, who was slower
than Molasses during a Canadian Winter would drop 'Smokin Joe' 'twice', and come within
a flash of a '3-Knockdown' 2nd Round TKO.

A 'flash knockdown' is no big deal

Those knockdowns of Frazier in the first Bonavena fight get way too much significance. As I recall, the first knockdown was a good right hand, the second knockdown came right after and it was pretty iffy as to what caused it, and Bonavena never got a sniff of a third knockdown. Frazier wasn't hurt that bad at any time.

All this coming in Frazier's 12th fight. Bonavena was a pretty stiff challenge for anybody fighting their 12th fight.

[yancey]

Correct Mr. Yancey,,,,,,,,

Hopefully nobody is taking this Computer Program Bout as a 'knock' on All-Time Great 'Smokin Joe'.

Just that Joe got a little 'too wide open' in 1972 at Age 28+, thinking that he could just blow everybody
away with a few well-placed Philadelphia left hooks.

Instead of working on perfecting his style, he let his head get into show business, with
'Smokin Joe and his Musical Revue'................

Just think that Michael Dokes was at his 'pinnacle' in December 1982.

Definitely agree that post-FOTC Frazier got fat and happy, lost his edge and desire, and was more into his music then boxing.

He was really just hanging around waiting for one more payday with Ali.

That is why I never could quite understand why his camp would risk it all against a guy who had really serious power. Foreman may have been fighting some bums, but he was wrong for fat and happy Joe. I knew that fight had trouble written all over and was none too surprised when I heard the bad news that night on the radio.

[SenorPipino]

All of this is simply conjecture and fantasy. Il Duce, you're not taking into account what Frazier might have been if he didn't take the beatings from Foreman, and Ali. Not the washed-up fantasy Ali of 1979 you present, but the real thing of '71,' 74, and '75. You can only speculate what kind of fighter Frazier might have been at 33+ years. Bruno, Dokes were both decent fighters but hardly anything special. I'm sure most agree that Frazier was an all-time top 20 heavyweight. But Bruno and Dokes? Top 1,000? Maybe. Old Joe whips these guys even if he comes out smokin' in a wheelchair.

[SenorPipino]

I would agree with your time frame of Frazier's best years. I'd throw in '71 just for the hell of it. He did win the Fight of the Century. But don't you think you give too much creedence to a computer forecast? Didn't one computer have Marciano knocking out Ali in 1970, but a different computer in England had the opposite result? I remember Angelo Dundee saying about Ali's loss to Rocky in the American Superfight version, that the match looked ridiculous. Ali never threw that many body shots in his entire career (up to '67). Nor did he lay on the ropes that much pre-1970.
The thing about computers when it comes to these dream fights is that we'll never know how right or how wrong these analysis' are.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

This the is "1,000,001-th" fight.

And, nobody would believe that an awkward and clunky 5' 10" - 205 lb. Argentinian, who was slower
than Molasses during a Canadian Winter would drop 'Smokin Joe' 'twice', and come within
a flash of a '3-Knockdown' 2nd Round TKO.

A 'flash knockdown' is no big deal

Check out 217+ pound 'Smokin Joe' against Ron Stander in May 1972.
1st Round at the (1:22 Mark), Ron buckles 'Smokin Joe' with a mediocre left hook, and
then backs him up.

Styles make Fights. Fast Hands cane be more effective then power in scoring a knockdown.

I have Joe's career on DVD, I've seen them all. First off, you didn't match Frazier with Dokes in his twelfth fight. Secondly, Bonavena was a bigger puncher than Dokes and he didn't drop him FIVE times. Stander didn't drop him at all.

Styles do make fights, that's precisely what makes that result so preposterous. For the third time, young Dokes was a mover, what about that makes you think he's going to stand and slug and use his overwhelming speed to smash Joe all over the ring? Sorry man, Dokes wasn't George Foreman. You're the one that should be checking out some footage.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I guess the Michael Dokes who went 'wicked awesome' crazy on Mike Weaver 'I' was just a 'mirage'.

Or flattened Las Vegas 'Tough Guy' Lynn Ball - had 'no power'.

Michael Dokes of 1982 was 'an excellent fighter', with power.

Again, no disrespect to the All Time Great 'Smokin Joe Frazier'.

Prime vs. Prime, Smokin Joe 'defuses' Dynamite by TKO 10.

The Weaver fight was a wicked awful stoppage. The rematch was much more in line.

Never said he had no power.

Just because you're making a silly argument doesn't mean you're being disrespectful. You're just woefully wrong defending some computer.

[MEISINGER]

I guess the Michael Dokes who went 'wicked awesome' crazy on Mike Weaver 'I' was just a 'mirage'.

Or flattened Las Vegas 'Tough Guy' Lynn Ball - had 'no power'.

Michael Dokes of 1982 was 'an excellent fighter', with power.

Again, no disrespect to the All Time Great 'Smokin Joe Frazier'.

Prime vs. Prime, Smokin Joe 'defuses' Dynamite by TKO 10.

The Weaver fight was a wicked awful stoppage. The rematch was much more in line.

Never said he had no power.

Just because you're making a silly argument doesn't mean you're being disrespectful. You're just woefully wrong defending some computer.

awful stoppage is right.
weaver was knocked down or at least around early in every fight.

that fight was a travesty

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Saad,,,,,,

You're letting your Heart make your decision, which I understand. You should 'expand' and look at all the aspects
and possible scenario's.

You're letting a computer skew your sense of reason. Dokes flooring Frazier 5 times is an impossible scenario. 0% chance.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The best Dokes ever fought was against Holyfield.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Saad,,,,,,,

Joe Frazier knocked himself down in Las Vegas in April 1970 at Caesar's Palace.

Ever wonder why Yank Durham kept Joe away from Zora Folley in 1966 and 1967.

Straight right hands,,,,,,,,,'Down Broadway',,,,read up on it.

After the age of 28+, just who did Joe put 'down-and-out'............