Floyd Patterson vs Cleveland 'Big Cat' Williams

[dempseyfire]

Mr. Flump,

They said the same thing about George Foreman - 'That he beat a bunch of nododies' - before he 'demolished' Smokin Joe.

'One Fight' can make a career.........

Perhaps, but Williams was hardly Foreman. George The 1st beat Chuvalo, Frazier, Norton and Lyle. Who was the best guy Williams beat?

Big punchers are always over rated, and The Big Cat is the poster boy for over rated punchers.

Highly disagree. First off, IMO Williams beat Terrell twice, first by KO and I thought he deserved the decision in their rematch. Also drew with a prime Machen, who I felt would've could have Patterson also. And Williams wasn't just a big puncher; he had tremendous speed and athleticism to go with his punch, and was well schooled skill-wise and possessing a very long reach (over 80 inches) and body frame. That's a tough bag for any heavyweight to deal with.

And his point was that Foreman's ledger pre-Frazier wasn't very impressive, which it wasn't beyond Chuvalo and Peralta (who wasn't even a top HW). It's not Cleveland's fault he was avoided like the plague by Patterson and then he got riddled with bullets in Texas.

[The Great John L]

Highly disagree. First off, IMO Williams beat Terrell twice, first by KO and I thought he deserved the decision in their rematch. Also drew with a prime Machen, who I felt would've could have Patterson also. And Williams wasn't just a big puncher; he had tremendous speed and athleticism to go with his punch, and was well schooled skill-wise and possessing a very long reach (over 80 inches) and body frame. That's a tough bag for any heavyweight to deal with.

Well, please do disagree, but besides Terrell there are no stoppages of top HWs on Williams record. He wasn't completely one-dimensional, but there is nothing in the resume to indicate anything but a typical over rated puncher. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see him fight until he was pretty puch shot, but I always like to see accomplishments against world class opponents, and there is little of that on Williams record.

And his point was that Foreman's ledger pre-Frazier wasn't very impressive, which it wasn't beyond Chuvalo and Peralta (who wasn't even a top HW). It's not Cleveland's fault he was avoided like the plague by Patterson and then he got riddled with bullets in Texas.

demps, if you read my posts you know I seldom have much good to say about George's protected career, but the discussion is a hypothetical matchup and it's certainly relevant that after a relatively protected buildup George went on to stop a number of world class HWs while Williams did not. "In ring" accomplishments are always more relevant than opinion, and that's why I can't imagine anyone mentioning The Big Cat in the same sentence with George. While I think George is over rated, his career was a lot more than one fight.

BTW, I do think that WIlliams would have had a decent chance against Patterson.

[The Great John L]

Here is a Fact,

Ask George Foreman who hit him the 'hardest'.........and he says Cleveland Williams.....

During sparring sessions from 1967 thru 1971 - with an older and leg-injured Cleveland.

Hard to see Floyd escaping for 15-Rounds with Cleveland back in January 1958.

LOL. On any given day, George is capable of saying anything. Others on here have quoted him as saying that Cooney was the hardest puncher he faced.

[dempseyfire]

Highly disagree. First off, IMO Williams beat Terrell twice, first by KO and I thought he deserved the decision in their rematch. Also drew with a prime Machen, who I felt would've could have Patterson also. And Williams wasn't just a big puncher; he had tremendous speed and athleticism to go with his punch, and was well schooled skill-wise and possessing a very long reach (over 80 inches) and body frame. That's a tough bag for any heavyweight to deal with.

Well, please do disagree, but besides Terrell there are no stoppages of top HWs on Williams record. He wasn't completely one-dimensional, but there is nothing in the resume to indicate anything but a typical over rated puncher. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see him fight until he was pretty puch shot, but I always like to see accomplishments against world class opponents, and there is little of that on Williams record.

And his point was that Foreman's ledger pre-Frazier wasn't very impressive, which it wasn't beyond Chuvalo and Peralta (who wasn't even a top HW). It's not Cleveland's fault he was avoided like the plague by Patterson and then he got riddled with bullets in Texas.

demps, if you read my posts you know I seldom have much good to say about George's protected career, but the discussion is a hypothetical matchup and it's certainly relevant that after a relatively protected buildup George went on to stop a number of world class HWs while Williams did not. "In ring" accomplishments are always more relevant than opinion, and that's why I can't imagine anyone mentioning The Big Cat in the same sentence with George. While I think George is over rated, his career was a lot more than one fight.

BTW, I do think that WIlliams would have had a decent chance against Patterson.

But as an overall gauge of a fighter, we have enough to judge Williams on, and I think it judges him an excellent heavyweight. You are talking like he was Lamar Clark or something resume-wise. Yes he had a limited window of opportunities pre-shooting given how he was avoided by Patterson, but in the times he was able to step up (Terrell X2, Machen, Liston) he showed he belonged and then some. Many had him beating Machen as well (and are you seriously going to knock Williams for not knocking out Machen? Eddie was extremely durable and had great defense but Williams still hurt Eddie worse than Liston did in their fight) Yes he lost vs Liston but I think almost all HWs in history save 5 or so lose to a peak Liston, and he had his moments. Plus he has quality wins over 2nd tier guys like Miteff, Daniels and Lee, whose career he ended.

[keithmoonhangover]

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWynvBLJ4I

That's it, there isn't one.

All good videos Keith, but you really only needed to show the speed, reflexes, and athleticism he had in his fight with Folley, then show a Bonavena, Frazier, whoever post 70 tape.

Then anyone who refutes that there is a hugely noticable difference is either delusional, or in need of Specsavers.

Well said Foxy sir.

[misterpunch]

saad states that the post break ali "..was stronger and sturdier and could move when he wanted to..." thats just it, i'm sure ali wanted to move like he used to but his body would not allow that. so yes he became sturdier..i'm fairly sturdy but i'd have much prefered to dance away from heavy punchers than to absorb their attacks.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

saad states that the post break ali "..was stronger and sturdier and could move when he wanted to..." thats just it, i'm sure ali wanted to move like he used to but his body would not allow that. so yes he became sturdier..i'm fairly sturdy but i'd have much prefered to dance away from heavy punchers than to absorb their attacks.

He was fighting tougher opposition. An Ali never existed that could have avoided combat in the FOTC. I doubt Clay lasts the distance in that fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

saad states that the post break ali "..was stronger and sturdier and could move when he wanted to..." thats just it, i'm sure ali wanted to move like he used to but his body would not allow that. so yes he became sturdier..i'm fairly sturdy but i'd have much prefered to dance away from heavy punchers than to absorb their attacks.

He was fighting tougher opposition. An Ali never existed that could have avoided combat in the FOTC. I doubt Clay lasts the distance in that fight.

Utter rubbish.

[Flump]

Mr. Flump,

They said the same thing about George Foreman - 'That he beat a bunch of nododies' - before he 'demolished' Smokin Joe.

'One Fight' can make a career.........

Can only go with what I see Il Duce, and Williams has the proverbial punchers chance, but I fancy Patterson to stay out of trouble and to get inside with fast flurries enough to ground the Big Cat down. And I echo John L's assertion that Williams was no Foreman, and the film and stats bear this out.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

saad states that the post break ali "..was stronger and sturdier and could move when he wanted to..." thats just it, i'm sure ali wanted to move like he used to but his body would not allow that. so yes he became sturdier..i'm fairly sturdy but i'd have much prefered to dance away from heavy punchers than to absorb their attacks.

He was fighting tougher opposition. An Ali never existed that could have avoided combat in the FOTC. I doubt Clay lasts the distance in that fight.

Utter rubbish.

[yancey]

saad states that the post break ali "..was stronger and sturdier and could move when he wanted to..." thats just it, i'm sure ali wanted to move like he used to but his body would not allow that. so yes he became sturdier..i'm fairly sturdy but i'd have much prefered to dance away from heavy punchers than to absorb their attacks.

He was fighting tougher opposition. An Ali never existed that could have avoided combat in the FOTC. I doubt Clay lasts the distance in that fight.

Agree with this.

I don't think Keith realizes the force early '71 Frazier was.

We're not talking Chuvalo or Folley here.

[Ambling Alp II]

Still waiting for that list of fighters who came back after 3 years and were better when they came back.
120 years of boxing history and you can't come up with any but Ali? Maybe Saad can stop hiding behind the or and come up with some.

[yancey]

Still waiting for that list of fighters who came back after 3 years and were better when they came back.
120 years of boxing history and you can't come up with any but Ali? Maybe Saad can stop hiding behind the or and come up with some.

Wait on, bud.

I'm not wasting time with someone that plays word games.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Still waiting for that list of fighters who came back after 3 years and were better when they came back.
120 years of boxing history and you can't come up with any but Ali? Maybe Saad can stop hiding behind the or and come up with some.

Nobodies hiding, your question is stupid and was already addressed. Perhaps you would like to name me some of the other fighters besides Louis that made 25 straight defenses of an undisputed championship?

[Ambling Alp II]

The question isn't stupid and it has not been addressed. Come on, name some names of fighter in the 120 year plus history of boxing who were better after a three year layoff?
It strains credibility that you can't come up with several names yet somehow Ali was better after his. Quite a coincidence.

It's irrelevant to what we are talking about, but I won't duck your question like you have ducked mine. No one else made 25 straight successful defenses.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nobody else has held titles simultaneously in three divisions either. That's one reason why your question is stupid, exceptional fighters do exceptional things. The fact that you're hell bent on this crusade for names is beyond bizarre. How many great fighters had a 3 year layoff at that age? By the way you're carrying on it's quite a long list.

[misterpunch]

saad, that ice youre skating on has a big old crack down the middle...i'm sendin' out a rescue party

[misterpunch]

sorry, saad...there aint no rescue party..guess its the big

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No worries, I'm quite comfortable here. I've been on the after layoff island for many years and will never be changing my mind. I must admit I find it amusing how upset this makes many of you. Ali fanatics are a strange cult. I can't think of any other group of Boxing folks that can take complimentary situations and turn them into terrible slights against their master.

[Counter-puncher]

Just a simple question can anyone seriously be stupid enough to believe the Cassius Clay / Ali up until 67 would have needed to take those shots to prove his " sturdiness " or would have just danced and leaned away from them?

do you mean, would the Clay that faced (say) Liston have managed to dance away from the FOTC Frazier for 15 whole rounds?

I doubt it, myself.

[Ambling Alp II]

You don't just automatically get sturdier. Why would he have? (If anything he would be less so after being out of the ring for so long.)Where is is the proof of that? He never got knocked down or hurt in 10 championship fights from 1964-1967. If he wasn't as "sturdy" there would be something you could point to that shows that he wasn't as "sturdy".

I think anyone who has played or even watched sports closely knows what happens when you are off for that long. When you first comeback, you are very rusty and don't perform nearly as well. (like Ali vs Bonavena and Frazier I) After awhile you can gradually get better and prefrom at a reasonalbe level until you get too old. (Ali in 1972-1975)However, you are almost certainly probably never going to be as good as you once were.

What advice should trainers give to fighters? Don't fight for the next 3 and half years. Comeback in September of 2016. When you comeback you will magically be more sturdy and will be better than ever.

It's plain as day that he wasn't as fast with his hands, couldn't move as much, and didn't have near the stamina. In the FOTC he was dog tired by the middle rounds.

It's pretty obvious that anti-Ali people like to pretend he was at his best in the 1970s because he lost a couple of times. They skirt the issue of how good Ali was by talking about how good his opponents were.

So the haters come up with the "sturdiness" crap. It is total BS.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You don't just automatically get sturdier. Why would he have? (If anything he would be less so after being out of the ring for so long.)Where is is the proof of that? He never got knocked down or hurt in 10 championship fights from 1964-1967. If he wasn't as "sturdy" there would be something you could point to that shows that he wasn't as "sturdy".

I think anyone who has played or even watched sports closely knows what happens when you are off for that long. When you first comeback, you are very rusty and don't perform nearly as well. (like Ali vs Bonavena and Frazier I) After awhile you can gradually get better and prefrom at a reasonalbe level until you get too old. (Ali in 1972-1975)However, you are almost certainly probably never going to be as good as you once were.

What advice should trainers give to fighters? Don't fight for the next 3 and half years. Comeback in September of 2016. When you comeback you will magically be more sturdy and will be better than ever.

It's plain as day that he wasn't as fast with his hands, couldn't move as much, and didn't have near the stamina. In the FOTC he was dog tired by the middle rounds.

It's pretty obvious that anti-Ali people like to pretend he was at his best in the 1970s because he lost a couple of times. They skirt the issue of how good Ali was by talking about how good his opponents were.

So the haters come up with the "sturdiness" crap. It is total BS.

Anti-Ali? You need help. Seriously, not just typical internet banter. You're a bitterly sick individual when it comes to Ali. I'm a fan, in your world I'm a 'hater'.

I rate his loss to Frazier as a positive in his career. Nothing I've typed has been a negative. Except for to you as you swing wildly from Ali's balls and turn into a little child when you perceive some negativity that isn't even there.

[misterpunch]

ok, saad, youre a fan and i believe that. but you sure dont help your cause by dreaming up stuff that just cannot be true simply by the rules of nature.

me? i'm not as much a fan of ali as you are but i'm old enough to have seen his career from cooper onwards. and pretty closely. i'm also aware of his worth as a sportsman and a human being "warts and all" as they say. you're no mug about our sport as many of your posts show - but on this issue you may have to step back and re-evaluate your position on that lonely post lay-off island where you live.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

ok, saad, youre a fan and i believe that. but you sure dont help your cause by dreaming up stuff that just cannot be true simply by the rules of nature.

me? i'm not as much a fan of ali as you are but i'm old enough to have seen his career from cooper onwards. and pretty closely. i'm also aware of his worth as a sportsman and a human being "warts and all" as they say. you're no mug about our sport as many of your posts show - but on this issue you may have to step back and re-evaluate your position on that lonely post lay-off island where you live.

Or perhaps you'll just have to learn to live with the fact that I disagree with you. That's probably the easier option, my opinion has been the same for a couple decades. No message board scoldings will change that. It should be easy enough, I've never even told any of you 'experts' that you're wrong.

[hhaehre]

Let's not beat around the bush, the big problem with FOTC is that the wrong man won. It is so hard to stomach that Ali looked great in FOTC. Why couldn't he have looked like crap? On the back of FOTC one simply has to wonder whether prime Frazier was just plain better than prime Ali and that is just so very very painful. It hurts so much.