The best fighter of the 1940s

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 06 May 2011, 18:21

Who was the best fighter pound per pound of the 1940s?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 06 May 2011, 18:22

I believe that it should be the great Willie Pep

Idisagree · Post by **Idisagree** » 06 May 2011, 18:50

I went with Ezzard Charles and close and I mean very close second Robinson.

Charles: Moore, Maxim, Burley, Marshall, Bivins, and Walcot.

Robinson: LaMotta, Armstrong, Gavilan, Zivic, Angott, and Levine.

Idisagree · Post by **Idisagree** » 06 May 2011, 19:24

BarryWashington wrote:
Idisagree wrote:I went with Ezzard Charles and close and I mean very close second Robinson.

Charles: Moore, Maxim, Burley, Marshall, Bivins, and Walcot.

Robinson: LaMotta, Armstrong, Gavilan, Zivic, Angott, and Levine.
for robinson you forgot california jackie wilson ('43)

So you could add Teddy Yarosz to Charles resume.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 06 May 2011, 20:23

Jesus, that's a hell of a list.

Idisagree · Post by **Idisagree** » 06 May 2011, 21:21

BarryWashington wrote:
Idisagree wrote:
BarryWashington wrote: for robinson you forgot california jackie wilson ('43)
So you could add Teddy Yarosz to Charles resume.
no . . . you couldn't teddy wasnt much by the time charles beat him in '41.

california jackie wilson on the other hand (in the '43 bout) was rated very highly as a welterweight.

Maybe you are overrating him too much. He was coming off a loss vs LaMotta and after the loss to Robinson he never won a meaningful fight after that. He best win should be against Cocoa Kid. Ceferino Garcia, Kid Azteca, and Arizmendi were pretty much done by the time he fought them. I don't consider him in the same league as the one I mention first.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 May 2011, 21:47

Robinson edges out Pep.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 06 May 2011, 23:39

Is this is best fighter in a pure sense lb for lb I go with a prime Robinson at welterweight . . but if we are talking about who had the best resume of the 40s, it's Charles.

tonydevino · Post by **tonydevino** » 08 May 2011, 10:36

how about bobby ruffin. sammy angott allie stolz robinson and pep.ike williams.

tonydevino · Post by **tonydevino** » 09 Jul 2013, 17:03

My vote Willie the wisp best of the 1940s.

RadioElRadar · Post by **RadioElRadar** » 10 Jul 2013, 07:08

Charles for me:

2-0 v Burley
3-0 v Maxim
1-1 v Marshall
3-1 v Bivins
3-0 v Moore
1-0 v Walcott

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 10 Jul 2013, 16:54

It has to be the great Willie Pep for me.

And these are the facts:

Won his first 62 bouts, and after losing to a lightweight Sammy Angott, Pep went 72-0-1. Seventy-three fights without a loss. By the time he fought the great Sandy Saddler, Pep was 134-1-1. Beating along the way Abe Denner (for New England Featherweight Title), Chalky Wright (NY World Featherweight Title),

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 10 Jul 2013, 17:08

It has to be the great Willie Pep for me.

And these are the facts:

Won his first 62 bouts, and after losing to a lightweight Sammy Angott, Pep went 72-0-1. Seventy-three fights without a loss. By the time he fought the great Sandy Saddler, Pep was 134-1-1. Beating along the way Abe Denner (for New England Featherweight Title), Chalky Wright (NY World Featherweight Title, beat Chalky 4 times!), Allie Stolz, Sal Bartolo (twice, the second for the world feather crown), Willie Joyce, Manuel Ortiz, Lulu Constantino, Phil Terranova, Eddie Giosa, Humberto Sierra (twice), Jock Leslie, Paddy DeMarco, Teddy "Red Top" Davis (twice), Eddie Compo, Harold Dade, and of course, the rematch with Saddler, which was his greatest triumph.

Held the world featherweight crown for 6 years, with 7 title defenses.

Pep was a master boxing machine. The Ring Fighter of the Year in 1945. A top 5 great fighter of all time, no doubt.

The greatest fighter of the '40s? To me, no doubt about that.

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 11 Jul 2013, 12:34

Man! It is a tough task to select the best fighter of the 1940s. Sugar Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles and Manuel Ortiz may be the greatest fighters ever in their respective weight divisions. I personally would rank Robinson as the best of the 1940s because he was at his peak at the time in addition to being generally as the best pound-for-pound fighter ever.

- Chuck Johnston

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 12 Jul 2013, 14:29

The problem I got with the great Sugar Ray Robinson is that he really did not fight the top tough men of his era, which were black figthters like Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Ezzard Charles, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Archie Moore, Tony Zale and others. I would not say that he would not win those fights, but he did not face them. At least, the great Jake LaMotta fought Williams.

In the other hand, the great Willie Pep FOUGHT THE VERY BEST of his time and division. By the end of the 1940s decade, he had aobut 140 wins!

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 12 Jul 2013, 14:38

And let's not forget that the Sugar Man had these two dubious decisions against the great Kid Gavilan. Many people at the fight booed the decisions.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 17 Jul 2013, 13:04

Charles

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 18 Jul 2013, 07:49

It's between Charles and Robinson.
Charles has some major wins -Archie Moore, (3x)Maxim (3x), Walcott, Burley, Bivins. Robinson had wins over Angott, Zivic, 4-1 vs a much bigger LaMotta.Both had several wins over fighters a notch or two below these guys as well. I would give Charles a slight edge here.
However, Charles also lost to Marshall, Bivins, a much bigger Elmer Ray and on his way up to Ken Overlin. Robinson's only loss was a great fighter who was much bigger than him. So overall, I would have to give Robinson an overall edge here.

As for the comment earlier about who Robinson did not fight, they were mainly bigger fighters. Seldom were they in the same weight class at the same time as Robinson. You might as well rip Willie Pep for not fighting eau Jack,Bob Montgomery,or Ike Williams.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 18 Jul 2013, 14:27

Ambling Alp II wrote:It's between Charles and Robinson.
Charles has some major wins -Archie Moore, (3x)Maxim (3x), Walcott, Burley, Bivins. Robinson had wins over Angott, Zivic, 4-1 vs a much bigger LaMotta.Both had several wins over fighters a notch or two below these guys as well. I would give Charles a slight edge here.
However, Charles also lost to Marshall, Bivins, a much bigger Elmer Ray and on his way up to Ken Overlin. Robinson's only loss was a great fighter who was much bigger than him. So overall, I would have to give Robinson an overall edge here.

As for the comment earlier about who Robinson did not fight, they were mainly bigger fighters. Seldom were they in the same weight class at the same time as Robinson. You might as well rip Willie Pep for not fighting eau Jack,Bob Montgomery,or Ike Williams.

At least Pep fought Sammy Angott and Willie Joyce. Two guys bigger than he was. Robinson did not fight greats like Charley Burley, a welterweight contender of his era that was avoided by top men. Also Robinson missed Cocoa Kid, another welterweight and Holman Williams, another great welterweight. They were in Sugar Ray's time. Let's stop making EXCUSES for Robinson.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 18 Jul 2013, 16:43

By the time SRR established himself as a WW, Burley and Williams were fighting primarily as middlewieghts. He could have fought them, but is there really a need for a WW to fight all of the top MWs?

I don't think anyone needs to make excuses for Ray Robinson, as any rational person wouldn't be questioning his accomplishments.

giacomino · Post by **giacomino** » 18 Jul 2013, 18:08

I would go with Charles by a hair, but great shout out for Ortiz in the poll. Dude held the bantamweight title for nearly the entire decade. Amazing collection of fighters in the poll.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 18 Jul 2013, 18:44

elmersalsa wrote:
Ambling Alp II wrote:It's between Charles and Robinson.
Charles has some major wins -Archie Moore, (3x)Maxim (3x), Walcott, Burley, Bivins. Robinson had wins over Angott, Zivic, 4-1 vs a much bigger LaMotta.Both had several wins over fighters a notch or two below these guys as well. I would give Charles a slight edge here.
However, Charles also lost to Marshall, Bivins, a much bigger Elmer Ray and on his way up to Ken Overlin. Robinson's only loss was a great fighter who was much bigger than him. So overall, I would have to give Robinson an overall edge here.

As for the comment earlier about who Robinson did not fight, they were mainly bigger fighters. Seldom were they in the same weight class at the same time as Robinson. You might as well rip Willie Pep for not fighting eau Jack,Bob Montgomery,or Ike Williams.
At least Pep fought Sammy Angott and Willie Joyce. Two guys bigger than he was. Robinson did not fight greats like Charley Burley, a welterweight contender of his era that was avoided by top men. Also Robinson missed Cocoa Kid, another welterweight and Holman Williams, another great welterweight. They were in Sugar Ray's time. Let's stop making EXCUSES for Robinson.

Giancarlo · Post by **Giancarlo** » 18 Jul 2013, 18:50

Making excuses for Robinson????

I've heard it all now!!!!

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 18 Jul 2013, 20:26

I guess that is one thing that is interesting about this Forum, almost everyday you will see something crazy like this. A fighter rolls up a phenomenal record like Robinson and one poster laughs at it and another rips him for not fighting more fighters above his weight class. Unbelievable.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 19 Jul 2013, 17:22

There is no need to try and talk to Elmer when he is on one of his rants. Laughing is all I can do at a post like that. Pep is probably overrated from a resume stand point. No way in hell does he approach Robinson or Charles decade with his entire career.