How Good was Norton's Chin?

[SenorPipino]

Always wondered what most fans thought of Ken Norton's chin?
Was it a decent chin? After all, even though he wasn't in there with fistic dynamite, he stood up to Ali for 39 rounds without wavering. Maybe stunned on several occasions but never in any real danger.
And what about his legendary battle with Holmes? In that razor-close slugfest, he took the best Holmes had to offer and never hit the canvas. Let's not forget that after that fight Holmes reeled off 8 straight KOs in title defenses.
Norton also stepped in there with rugged punchers Quarry, Kirkman and even Bobick, surviving without much difficulty.

But what about his KO losses to Garcia, Foreman, Shavers and Cooney?
All were legitimate punchers, including the wiry Garcia, who was really only a cruiserweight (at least he would be today) at the time he stopped Norton in 1970.
The other 3 are regarded as a few of the best heavyweight punchers in history, so getting bombed out by them is no disgrace.
But you wonder why they KO'd Norton so convincingly and quickly. It seems Norton had previously demonstrated the ability and grit to at least compete evenly with these punchers and not self-destruct early.
Okay, maybe the Cooney fight came far too late for the then-aging Norton. He was also dropped hard 2 fights earlier by LeDoux.
But against Garcia, Foreman and Shavers, shouldn't we have expected better?
Was it his chin or did he simply freeze mentally when hurt leading to his rapid demise in these bouts?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I thought Garcia stopped him later in the fight and he was completely shot when he fought Cooney.

His chin was solid(I laugh when I read insert name KO1 because Norton had a china chin), but he was susceptible to uppercuts and he happened to get drilled with them by two of the most powerful men to ever enter a ring. I'd call his chin above average, he was an excellent defensive fighter so that aided him from getting caught clean too often.

[yancey]

He had a good chin, I reckon.

He could freeze up, too. Haven't seen that Foreman fight in a long time, but I seem to recall some freeze up there.

I don't blame him.

[SenorPipino]

What about his so-called "foot-in-the-bucket" movement, where he dragged his right foot slowly behind him, almost perpendicularly?
Supposedly he had sustained a leg injury in college that caused him to drag it in his boxing career.
Because of it, it seemed Norton could advance well, but when hurt, he moved too slowly, either backward or laterally, to succesfully retreat from further damaging shots.
His Archie Moore cross-armed defense worked well, unless he was seriously stunned.

(BTW---any updates on Norton's current health?)

[SenorPipino]

Wasn't aware of Norton's early career knockdowns. Not always a sign of a poor chin but sometimes flawed balance and technique
It adds to questions about the ex-Marine's chin and why it let him down badly at certain times while it absorbed some great shots against others.

[loaded_gloves]

He had a good chin. Ali, Holmes, and Quarry could all hit and had plenty of knockouts, never budged him.

Lots of great fighters have an early stoppage on their records. Look at Sergio Martinez. Ken Norton's great crime was that he took on a rampaging Foreman at the peak of his powers and Shavers, possibly the hardest hitting heavyweight of all-time.

And neither guy was able to lay him out with one punch either.

Kenny's chin was fine.

[dempseyfire]

I concur with Saad and loaded gloves; Ken's chin weakness gets badly overblown. He showed a very good chin throughout the wide majority of his career, especially since he was an aggressive fighter and thus would got hit with his style more than a straight lateral boxer would.

[Rover]

I thought Ken Norton had a very good chin..........

But, should evaluate his career from the start, to see where the 'cracks' developed.

Ken had that tendency to lean-in with his chin hanging out there to be hit, and the low left-hand
invited head punches.
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In Kenny's '3rd-Bout' of his career {February 6, 1968} he was dropped by Harold Dutra 11-0-0 {11 KO's},
who was a pretty decent 'banging' Club-Fighter.

Kenny got floored in Round 2, but came back to "Knockout' Harold in the next Round {KO 3}.
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And in his next bout {March 26, 1968} he was dropped in Round 3, by {274 lbs.} 'Fat Jimmy' Gilmore.

But again Kenny got up, and then wore down the 'Fat Man' and stopped him by 'Knockout' in Round 7.
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At the time, a 24 1/2 year-old Kenny was a 'muscular-but-lean' 6' 3" 205 lb. Heavyweight.

Thanks Duce.
Fat Jimmy? Does another boxer have that nickname?

[Rover]

He had a good chin. Ali, Holmes, and Quarry could all hit and had plenty of knockouts, never budged him.

Lots of great fighters have an early stoppage on their records. Look at Sergio Martinez. Ken Norton's great crime was that he took on a rampaging Foreman at the peak of his powers and Shavers, possibly the hardest hitting heavyweight of all-time.

And neither guy was able to lay him out with one punch either.

Kenny's chin was fine.

x2

[Rover]

Mr. Rover

Mr. Jumbo........'Fat' Jimmy Abbott........South African Heavyweight.........He could punch though.

I remember Jumbo Cummings, but I'd never heard of a fighter nicknamed Fat before.

[Giancarlo]

At the time, Kenny was regarded as a better prospect than George Foreman

You making stuff up again, Benito?

[Chuck1052]

If I was the manager of Ken Norton, I would have kept him away from the likes of George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle and Gerry Cooney because he was destroyed in short order when facing the hardest punchers of his era.

- Chuck Johnston

[Rover]

If I was the manager of Ken Norton, I would have kept him away from the likes of George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle and Gerry Cooney because he was destroyed in short order when facing the hardest punchers of his era.

- Chuck Johnston

But Foreman was the champ and expected to remain there for a while. Before that, Frazier had been, so you're saying that his manager should've kept him from fighting for the title.

[Ambling Alp II]

It was Kenny's birthday on Friday; he celebrated the big "Seven O"
Hope it was a good one.

As for his chin,getting blown out by Foreman shows it was not great. The Ali, Holmes and Quarry fights shows it certainly was not bad.

[Rover]

It was Kenny's birthday on Friday; he celebrated the big "Seven O"
Hope it was a good one.

As for his chin,getting blown out by Foreman shows it was not great. The Ali, Holmes and Quarry fights shows it certainly was not bad.

Happy 70th.
As for being destroyed by George, no shame in that. He still had a fine chin.

[SenorPipino]

Garcia's KO record in 17 fights indicates he wasn't seen as a huge puncher when he faced Norton.
Most of his fights had been against ordinary opposition in Venezuela, although he had dropped a decision to future world champ Vicente Rondon.
Appeared to be merely an opponent when he entered the ring against Norton.

[Rover]

&?

[SenorPipino]

Seems like referee Dick Young was in his rights to stop the fight, despite Futch's rant.
The referee can stop the fight whenever he pleases. He wasn't obliged to give Norton the full minute to recover. Futch must have known that.
It was interesting that Garcia wasn't awarded the fight in round 1 when a downed Norton's corner rushed into the ring at the bell.
Remember, you can only be saved by the bell in the final round. Norton's cornermen entering the ring during the count should have prompted an immediate DQ.
I suppose it's a moot point since Garcia went on to win the fight, but if Norton had rallied and pulled out the bout, I'm certain Ketcham would have filed an official protest with the California State Athletic Commission. Hard to imagine that such a protest wouldn't have been upheld.

[Giancarlo]

I can barely wait to hear the crapola you'll be spouting about this guy, Benito.

Don't hold back.

[Giancarlo]

Note: You may have seen Giancarlo at this bout, he was the Coliseum Men's Room Attendant....

I remember you now!

I found you and another fat sweaty geek in a cubicle together.

You were good at telling stories even then and you had me half believing he was just helping you as you'd got yourself stuck in there.

But what I never understood was why he had decided to take his trousers off too.

[SenorPipino]

June 12, 1971

Civic Auditorium - Santa Monica, California

Ken Norton ~ 20-1-0 {19 KO's}
vs.
Victor Brown ~ 22-16-0 {16 KO's}

Victor Brown, veteran 31 1/2 year-old Buffalo, New York Heavyweight and former {1963}
National AAU Champion with 'Trail-Horse' status.

Victor, a 6' 0" 198 lbs. southpaw with good power in his right-hook, is called the 'Buffalo K.O. King'.

Victor's career had sputtered by November 1967 with a record of 9-11-0, but Victor has had a
mild surge during the last 3 1/2 years by going 13-5-0 {9 KO's}.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newspaper Account,

The 6' 0" 198 lbs. Victor Brown caught the 27 1/2 year-old 6' 3" 211 lbs. Ken Norton early in the 1st-Round
with a hard right-hook, and Kenny went spraddle-legged as he was badly staggered.

The 'Buffalo K.O. King' followed up with several hard punches, and Kenny went down on his right-side after
getting tagged with a wide right-hook from Victor Brown.

Kenny was up at the '5-Count' and was able to withstand the oncoming wild-bombs from Victor, and by
the end of the 1st-Round Kenny had cleared the 'cob-webs' out of his head.

By the middle of Round 3, Kenny had taken complete control and was dominating Victor with a heavy barrage
of body-punches, forcing Brown to back up to the ropes.

Brown was wilting under the pressure in Round 4, and several hard whacks to the body by Kenny had Victor looking
for cover while he was on the run trying to survive.

In Round 5, Kenny smashed Victor with a couple of brutal left hooks to the jaw, sending Victor down and to the canvas,
to be counted out by Referee - Lew Grossman.

Victor Brown was taken to the Hospital, as he had suffered a 'broken jaw' and '3' broken ribs........
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After '22-Bouts',

Kenny Norton had been sent to the canvas '6-Times', KO'd once, and staggered several times in compiling
a 21-1-0 {20 KO's} record.

The chin was being 'questioned'.......... :??

The more I read about Norton's early career and his "taste" for the canvas, the fewer questions I have.
His chin simply wasn't that good.

[SenorPipino]

I'm sure by the early 70's, Team Norton was wary of putting its fighter in with anyone who could whack. Too much evidence that Norton's chin was suspect.
When did Eddie Futch begin training Norton? Did his arrival help mask any weakness in Norton's chin?
Norton did fight a lot of smallish heavies, but to be fair, in the late 60's and early 70s, heavyweights over 210 lbs. were considered big. Overall, they didn't have the size of today's combatants.

[SenorPipino]

Interesting that Futch was fired just a few months before Norton fought Foreman for the heavyweight title.
The fight must have been signed by January 1974 for the March 1974 battle, so it's strange they would dismiss Futch with the biggest fight of Norton's career looming.
It couldn't have helped Norton's preparation for the match in Caracas.

[loaded_gloves]

Are Pipino and Duce the same person?

They both seem eager to swallow a lot of unverified crap.