Clay v Liston I : Comments

[gilgamesh]

yancey, I don't disagree completely. However it was all on Sonny and the choices he made. Unless he was really discombobulated, and then it's about a punch that is simply difficult to understand. However the forensic review of that punch does not rule out discombobulation. Nor does it confirm same.

That punch wouldn't have knocked out my mother.

Don't even act like the 2nd fight was legit. That's the most obvious dive in all of Boxing history.

I don't know why Liston did it, I've heard the "Death threat" theories that he was afraid somebody was going to shoot either him or Ali and he just wanted to get the hell out of there. I've heard mob connection theories. I've heard a lot of stuff. I don't know what the real deal was or why he took a dive that night, but I know for damn sure that he took a dive.

All you have to look at to know this is the way he started to rise, realized the count wasn't done yet, and rolled back over like a Dog told to "Roll over boy". It was a dive as sure as the Sun will come up tomorrow.



I'll defend again and again that I think the first Clay-Liston fight was on the level (except for the substance in eyes thing), but I think Clay's victory that night was legitimate. I'll also repeat again and again to anyone that thinks otherwise that the rematch was a dive, because it absolutely was.

[Ezzard]

Damn...I used to be able to make my point rather articulately when I was younger....now I just sort of blather and mumble about.

This thread is our very own teeny tiny homage to "when we were kings...keyboard warriors uncut version"

[BoxBuzz]

Gilga.....I am a head injury specialist. I promise you, in a clinical fashion.....this can not be ruled out.

It snapped the head of it's victim in such a way that the inner ear could have been rather affected. It would have manifested just as it played out. Temporary loss of balance. This is not a particularly "low probability" outcome.

Notice Liston is moving forward at the time. I think there is a slow motion version of this somewhere. Sweat was flying off the noggin.

I realize that the real time version looks comical. But forensics are forensics.....The odds of this being temporarily discombobulating are actually higher than all these wonderfully dramatic and enticing, imagined theories. Only problem is it is boring. Though Ali himself (if he was honest with himself) likely had no idea what he had done. No way was it a KO punch.

Add to this that Liston wanted none of this serious opponent, was not interested at all in taking a beating .....and you don't have to look to every conspiracy in the book for answers. I'm good with Sonny had no heart for this fight, and could have continued. But I don't think he liked that moment, and just gave up. And cmon, Walcott completely goofed it.....and things went haywire in other ways.

I do believe this was mostly Lack of Heart on Sonny's behalf. Combined with a very dizzy feeling, and perhaps a lot of embarrassment. With completely hapless officiating.

The incidents of incompetence far outpace the incidents of ill intent.

So there is room for every option. Look to Occams razor combined with forensics for the high probability answer.

It's right there in front of you. Even if a bit counter intuitive.

[ThatOne]

I watched it last night for the first time in ages and while I'm sure it's been discussed before I thought it would be interesting to bring it up for the many new posters.

In particular I'd like to get your comments on
1. The substance in Clay's eyes.
2.Liston's alleged shoulder injury.

In my opinion, Liston came in over confident, but soon found out the hard way that Clay was for real. When Clay was a sitting duck for Liston in the 5th rd, and still managed to weather the storm in good shape I think it broke Sonny mentally. The ointment on the gloves hadn't worked, he'd been hurt in the 2nd, his face was getting busted up and he had no answer for Clay's hand and footspeed. Plus, in the 3rd I think, Liston had caught Clay flush with a lefthook to the jaw with little effect. The last round was all Clay, though it appeared there was nothing wrong with Liston's shoulder. In short, I believe Liston knew he was going to be stopped at some point and so quit on his stool.

Liston did quit. I'm sure others will chime in and disagree.

I wonder if it ever bothered Ali that both of his Liston victories, especially the second fight, were tainted quite a bit.

You mean Ali jumping about in hysteria & screaming at Liston to get up in the rematch didn't indicate to you he was, "bothered?"

Roy Jones Junior was also a very unorthodox fighter who "violated" boxing sacred rules. The difference between RJJ and Ali is he didn't have Ali's heart, chin, or footwork.

[ThatOne]

yancey, I don't disagree completely. However it was all on Sonny and the choices he made. Unless he was really discombobulated, and then it's about a punch that is simply difficult to understand. However the forensic review of that punch does not rule out discombobulation. Nor does it confirm same.

That punch wouldn't have knocked out my mother.

Don't even act like the 2nd fight was legit. That's the most obvious dive in all of Boxing history.

I don't know why Liston did it, I've heard the "Death threat" theories that he was afraid somebody was going to shoot either him or Ali and he just wanted to get the hell out of there. I've heard mob connection theories. I've heard a lot of stuff. I don't know what the real deal was or why he took a dive that night, but I know for damn sure that he took a dive.

All you have to look at to know this is the way he started to rise, realized the count wasn't done yet, and rolled back over like a Dog told to "Roll over boy". It was a dive as sure as the Sun will come up tomorrow.








I'll defend again and again that I think the first Clay-Liston fight was on the level (except for the substance in eyes thing), but I think Clay's victory that night was legitimate. I'll also repeat again and again to anyone that thinks otherwise that the rematch was a dive, because it absolutely was.

Sonny Liston was in the joint. Ask anybody who has spent time there who is the most feared guy in the joint and they will say it's the prisoner who has convinced other prisoners he's crazy. Sonny Liston bought into Ali's pre fight antics and thought he was crazy.

He said he could have got up in the second fight but didn't because he was in a defenseless position, having to put one hand on the canvas to get up. He was afraid Ali, who refused to go to a neutral corner, would hit him as he tried to stand up.

He saved himself an embarrassing beating, much like Roberto Duran in his second fight with Ray Leonard.

Ali was younger, bigger, faster, and much more athletic.

Again, what fighters with Liston's style bothered Ali?

Cutesy fighters and swarmers bothered the post exile Ali and that's it.

[ThatOne]

Sonny Liston was afraid of Cassius Clay, because he was 'crazy'.

Then why did he get in the ring with him.........

For the money.


He did act accordingly, as I demonstrated, didn't he?

[BoxBuzz]

Mr. Box-Buzz,

You forgot to mention the "J & B Scotch' that Sonny Boy had been sucking down in
a frightening fashion up at the Mansion House in Poland Spring, Maine.

The man was 'boozed out', and could care less about putting in any effort to fight.

Besides, the cash {I-C-P} was 'guaranteed'.

Any evidence? He is dead and gone...so you are safe from any libel action on this accusation.

[gilgamesh]

Gilga.....I am a head injury specialist. I promise you, in a clinical fashion.....this can not be ruled out.

It snapped the head of it's victim in such a way that the inner ear could have been rather affected. It would have manifested just as it played out. Temporary loss of balance. This is not a particularly "low probability" outcome.

Notice Liston is moving forward at the time. I think there is a slow motion version of this somewhere. Sweat was flying off the noggin.

I realize that the real time version looks comical. But forensics are forensics.....The odds of this being temporarily discombobulating are actually higher than all these wonderfully dramatic and enticing, imagined theories. Only problem is it is boring. Though Ali himself (if he was honest with himself) likely had no idea what he had done. No way was it a KO punch.

Add to this that Liston wanted none of this serious opponent, was not interested at all in taking a beating .....and you don't have to look to every conspiracy in the book for answers. I'm good with Sonny had no heart for this fight, and could have continued. But I don't think he liked that moment, and just gave up. And cmon, Walcott completely goofed it.....and things went haywire in other ways.

I do believe this was mostly Lack of Heart on Sonny's behalf. Combined with a very dizzy feeling, and perhaps a lot of embarrassment. With completely hapless officiating.

The incidents of incompetence far outpace the incidents of ill intent.

So there is room for every option. Look to Occams razor combined with forensics for the high probability answer.

It's right there in front of you. Even if a bit counter intuitive.

I've heard this explanation from you many times BoxBuzz, I ain't buying it. I respect that you're a head injury specialist, and I realize sometimes it doesn't take a big punch to knock out some people, but this wasn't "some people" this was Sonny Liston, a man who was known to take a pretty good punch, and has been seen taking MANY bigger punches than that.

Even if the knockdown itself was legit (which it wasn't, don't kid yourself)...the delay in getting up was absolutely fake, no way in hell he could've been that hurt.

He gets up on his knees, was clearly in a position to stand up, realizes the referee's count is not finished, and rolls back over like a dog doing a trick.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out it's bullsh*t. I respect your position as a Head Specialist BoxBuzz and I understand it gives you a different perspective on this, but I've said it before and I'll say it again. The punch was nothing, he could've hit Liston with 1000 shots just like that and he wouldn't have budged him if he didn't want to be budged. The knockout WAS NOT legit. It was a dive, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.





And P.S. Il Duce, no I'm not halfway there on your theories and you won't be winning me over to Liston-Clay I was a dive. I've always known Liston-Clay II was a dive, because I've seen it and I have eyes. You didn't convince me of anything there that I didn't already know long before I ever spoke to Il Duce.

Liston-Clay I, was legit. Liston just quit because he had no heart.

[ThatOne]

Gilga.....I am a head injury specialist. I promise you, in a clinical fashion.....this can not be ruled out.

It snapped the head of it's victim in such a way that the inner ear could have been rather affected. It would have manifested just as it played out. Temporary loss of balance. This is not a particularly "low probability" outcome.

Notice Liston is moving forward at the time. I think there is a slow motion version of this somewhere. Sweat was flying off the noggin.

I realize that the real time version looks comical. But forensics are forensics.....The odds of this being temporarily discombobulating are actually higher than all these wonderfully dramatic and enticing, imagined theories. Only problem is it is boring. Though Ali himself (if he was honest with himself) likely had no idea what he had done. No way was it a KO punch.

Add to this that Liston wanted none of this serious opponent, was not interested at all in taking a beating .....and you don't have to look to every conspiracy in the book for answers. I'm good with Sonny had no heart for this fight, and could have continued. But I don't think he liked that moment, and just gave up. And cmon, Walcott completely goofed it.....and things went haywire in other ways.

I do believe this was mostly Lack of Heart on Sonny's behalf. Combined with a very dizzy feeling, and perhaps a lot of embarrassment. With completely hapless officiating.

The incidents of incompetence far outpace the incidents of ill intent.

So there is room for every option. Look to Occams razor combined with forensics for the high probability answer.

It's right there in front of you. Even if a bit counter intuitive.

I've heard this explanation from you many times BoxBuzz, I ain't buying it. I respect that you're a head injury specialist, and I realize sometimes it doesn't take a big punch to knock out some people, but this wasn't "some people" this was Sonny Liston, a man who was known to take a pretty good punch, and has been seen taking MANY bigger punches than that.

Even if the knockdown itself was legit (which it wasn't, don't kid yourself)...the delay in getting up was absolutely fake, no way in hell he could've been that hurt.

He gets up on his knees, was clearly in a position to stand up, realizes the referee's count is not finished, and rolls back over like a dog doing a trick.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out it's bullsh*t. I respect your position as a Head Specialist BoxBuzz and I understand it gives you a different perspective on this, but I've said it before and I'll say it again. The punch was nothing, he could've hit Liston with 1000 shots just like that and he wouldn't have budged him if he didn't want to be budged. The knockout WAS NOT legit. It was a dive, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.





And P.S. Il Duce, no I'm not halfway there on your theories and you won't be winning me over to Liston-Clay I was a dive. I've always known Liston-Clay II was a dive, because I've seen it and I have eyes. You didn't convince me of anything there that I didn't already know long before I ever spoke to Il Duce.

Liston-Clay I, was legit. Liston just quit because he had no heart.

Look at the fight as a prelude to Leoanrd-Duran ll . Liston saved himself from a monumental ass beating. Losing to a boxer like Ali is worse than losing to a boxer like Foreman because the punishment is prolonged instead of quick. Ali would have pot shotted that lumbering rummy him all evening.

I could see Ali carrying him into the late rounds, just moving around him, and hitting him at will.

[ThatOne]

I disagree on all counts,

Unless you were there to hear all the behind closed door dealings, to assume that everything was on
the 'up-and-up' is ridiculous.

This is in no way to say that Cassius Clay wasn't a super talented boxer, which he was.

And, this is in no way to say that Sonny Liston would have beaten the 'Young Cassius'
in a fair boxing match, without the 'attached amendments' and personal agreements.

The argument, is that it was 'Just Good Business' for Sonny Liston to lose in Miami Beach in February 1964.

'Always Follow The Money With Sonny'................Legacy and Belts meant nothing to him.

Does anybody really believe that Sonny couldn't have gone the distance if he wanted to. Cassius was
'gassed' in Round 4, and his punches had nothing on them. The only thing he had left, was a medium
left jab which was not even fast, and good legs, but nothing else.

Clay was gassed after four rounds????

He could have went fifteen...

It was Liston who aged twenty years in those seven rounds.

[gilgamesh]

I disagree on all counts,

Unless you were there to hear all the behind closed door dealings, to assume that everything was on
the 'up-and-up' is ridiculous.

This is in no way to say that Cassius Clay wasn't a super talented boxer, which he was.

And, this is in no way to say that Sonny Liston would have beaten the 'Young Cassius'
in a fair boxing match, without the 'attached amendments' and personal agreements.

The argument, is that it was 'Just Good Business' for Sonny Liston to lose in Miami Beach in February 1964.

'Always Follow The Money With Sonny'................Legacy and Belts meant nothing to him.

Does anybody really believe that Sonny couldn't have gone the distance if he wanted to. Cassius was
'gassed' in Round 4, and his punches had nothing on them. The only thing he had left, was a medium
left jab which was not even fast, and good legs, but nothing else.

Cassius was 'gassed' in Round 4? You realize that's the round in which the substance got in his eyes right?

You're just grasping at straws now.

You and Yancey are the only ones around here waving a relentless "We hate Ali" Flag. You should just start PM'ing each other.

[yancey]

I disagree on all counts,

Unless you were there to hear all the behind closed door dealings, to assume that everything was on
the 'up-and-up' is ridiculous.

This is in no way to say that Cassius Clay wasn't a super talented boxer, which he was.

And, this is in no way to say that Sonny Liston would have beaten the 'Young Cassius'
in a fair boxing match, without the 'attached amendments' and personal agreements.

The argument, is that it was 'Just Good Business' for Sonny Liston to lose in Miami Beach in February 1964.

'Always Follow The Money With Sonny'................Legacy and Belts meant nothing to him.

Does anybody really believe that Sonny couldn't have gone the distance if he wanted to. Cassius was
'gassed' in Round 4, and his punches had nothing on them. The only thing he had left, was a medium
left jab which was not even fast, and good legs, but nothing else.

Cassius was 'gassed' in Round 4? You realize that's the round in which the substance got in his eyes right?

You're just grasping at straws now.

You and Yancey are the only ones around here waving a relentless "We hate Ali" Flag. You should just start PM'ing each other.

I don't hate Ali. Never did.

You are a simple minded fool for tossing around a statement like that.

Go F yourself, simple minded fool.

[ThatOne]

Yancey is ok. He is much too knowledgeable about boxing to believe that Clay/Ali was "gassed" in the fourth round.

[gilgamesh]

Yancey is ok. He is much too knowledgeable about boxing to believe that Clay/Ali was "gassed" in the fourth round.

He does strike me as a knowledgeable boxing fan about the guys from the past, but he does definitely have a negative bias towards Ali.

Of course that could have more to do with the fact that he adores Joe Frazier, and I don't blame him for adoring Frazier. Frazier was the sh*t!!! One of my all time favorite Heavyweights.

[BoxBuzz]

I disagree on all counts,

Then I suggest we all stop counting.

[evrenb]

I disagree on all counts,

Then I suggest we all stop counting.

I agree with boxbuzz and ThatOne's view on this. Has anybody seen the alternative angle replay of the knockout? Side on slo-mo.....? Very interesting and seldom shown.....

[BoxBuzz]

It's a fun forensics study...and well worth the time spent.

[gilgamesh]

I disagree on all counts,

Then I suggest we all stop counting.

I agree with boxbuzz and ThatOne's view on this. Has anybody seen the alternative angle replay of the knockout? Side on slo-mo.....? Very interesting and seldom shown.....

I watched it repeatedly the other day upon the suggestion of BoxBuzz. The punch did look like it could've caused a legitimate knockdown...I still think Liston could've gotten up, but just decided to quit.

[BoxBuzz]

If your taking some time watching that fight.....look at Listons facial expresssions......he gets more frustrated by the round.....he "aint getting no traction"....lol.....even when he's got a blinded fighter in front of him.....he is the one whos gassing big time.....he's lookin like a balloon that's losing it's air.

His look of confidence is out the window as the rounds progress.

[gilgamesh]

I still don't 'see' a dominant Cassius Clay in this bout half-way thru
Round 5 and Round 6.

Medium-power left jabs, and Sonny not doing anything much but allowing
Cassius to jab him without much return.

Sonny was not being 'slammed' all over the Ring, and the pace of both was
damn near 'Snail-Speed'.

Eddie Machen who was at Ringside, was laughing through all of this.........

Eddie Machen, "I've seen better fights in the psychiatric ward."

I don't think anybody ever said it was one of the greatest fights of all time or nothing, but it was a damn good performance from Ali against a feared Heavyweight Champion who most picked over him at the time.

[BoxBuzz]

I watched this thing on a very big screen one time and wrote this while watching it.

Round 1. First of all the body language and the facial expressions tell me a story. Ali looks hopeful and energetic but may not be as confident as he has been talking. Sonny is not kidding around, and he's got the body language and looks of a man who means business and intends and believes he is about to deliver a beating. And in these first three minutes he is forced off balance, he's lunging and knows he's looking bad, and he almost shows embarrassment. I counted 3 shots that he fully put his hopes on to end the fight and they landed on thin air and nothing more. They took the wind out of his sails. You can see in his eyes on the third shot that he is frustrated. The skirmish after the bell is interesting

Round 1 Clay

Round 2. Okay I'll give this round to Liston, he hits some pay dirt twice with his big jab...not quite a hook but I'd call it a power shot anyway and it got Clay's attention. I see Clay studying and measuring. I see Clay as the boss in this round, but on pure points I will give this to Sonny...he is the champion. Liston did land the more meaningful punches but if you read these men and not purely the fighting, Clay has the upper hand mentally between these two. He is gaining confidence and Liston is deflating.

Round 2. Liston

Round 3 Clay is slipping masterfully or else Liston just can't be read wrong...you pick it. First two minutes are Clay's and he completely gets Liston's respect. I'll give the last minute to Liston but not enough to carry the round. Liston has a cut and a mouse on the left side of his face and he appears to be confused, he has no answers but he's far from giving up, his body language is clearly telling me he is searching for answers and hoping they might come. He is NOT his typical confident self. He has now gone farther than his last two fights combined, and it's a whole different world for him. He may have rang Clay's bell a bit in the last minute. But Clay rang Liston's in the earlier going. Clay knows this guy can hit now. But it does not win Liston the round IMHO.

Round 3 Clay

Round 4. Now Liston's other eye is puffy and he looks like he's aged in the last round. I called this round even there is back and forth action in this round and Liston has a few good moments as does Clay. One gets the sense that Clay is in charge but that alone does not carry the round in my opinion.

Round 4 Even....

Round 5. In between rounds Clay complains about his eyes, it looks like the sponge may have made things worse as the corner tries to wash his eyes out. It seems to take Liston by surprise that something has changed. Liston looks like he knows he must end this now, and somehow Clay manages to punt this round.. It's not a 10 8 round but it comes close because all Clay is doing is attempting to survive. The first 2 minutes are completely lopsided but Clay never loses composure and senses how to keep in the game. He gets tagged but keeps angles nicely and manages to avoid a deadly moment. Keeping distance, and coming in close and clinching when needed. Clays reaction time is stupefying in retreat. Liston doesn't seem to quite trust that Clay is helpless and that may have sewn his fate. Nevertheless there is no forensic body language that tells me that this is anything but fight and flight. There is NO indication that either man is NOT giving everything they have to end it on one hand, and to survive on the other. If this fight has any "fix" in it...it's the liniment moment and it did not pan out. Still Liston appears to have hit Clay with a shot or two that would have taken out lesser men.

Round 5 Liston

Round 6. You can see in Liston's facial expressions that he feels he blew his chance. And shockingly he is LOSING the battle of the Jabs. How about that? And it aint cause Liston aint tryin. Anyone with an ounce of ability to read these guys body language knows they are both intent on victory, one smells it and the other is feeling it slip away. In this round Liston tends to look confused and tentative and a bit embarrassed.

Round 6 Clay.

I think Liston or his corner chooses not to take the beating he/they know is coming here. He shakes his head negatively, right as he arrives at his corner. His cornermen are nearly silent and looking sullen. If Liston hurt his left shoulder, you could never have guessed it by the last very powerful left Jab he threw in the 6th, Was it his right that he claimed was injured I thought it was the left? I forget. You COULD make a case that his right shoulder was bugging him in that last round. Missing throwing big punches can give you all kinds of misery I suppose. We are told that his corner and not Liston made this decision. So Liston should not be held in contempt here. He wanted to come back out.


And that's all folks.

[BoxBuzz]

Thanks, I was reporting using my knowledge of body language. As you say, Liston may have had a poor self image. But in the ring, I think he had fleeting moments of very certain self confidence. But Clay's persona turned out to be intimidating to him, according to how I am interpreting what I see in this fight.

The "future" exploitation of the Junior fighter? Honestly?

No one had an inkling of the fighter formerly known as "Clay" was to become. No one could have had designs on something that did not exist. He was a flash in the pan as far as anyone knew.

The only thing he was good for then was a meal ticket on that day, but the meal ended up eating the predator.

[BoxBuzz]

In truth, Cassius was good, but not that good.

You appear to be awkwardly mendacious with this statement. YOU have rated him the #5 greatest HW of all time.
Which is it? Was he "good"... or "not that good"? It is difficult to appreciate your documented duplicitous statements on this matter.

[BoxBuzz]

Just trying to pin down the context is all. In our conversations I find it can be a moving target.

[ThatOne]

If your taking some time watching that fight.....look at Listons facial expresssions......he gets more frustrated by the round.....he "aint getting no traction"....lol.....even when he's got a blinded fighter in front of him.....he is the one whos gassing big time.....he's lookin like a balloon that's losing it's air.

His look of confidence is out the window as the rounds progress.

Go to the 1.40 mark. It will make you think of Liston:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... swGuyJLMUM