What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?

[JimStone]

2% water loss cuts your workrate by 20%: FACT

I know why he's produced that stat. There's a rule of thumb that for every 1% you are dehydrated you lose 10% in performance and it's actually not bad. We used to instil that idea into young soldiers to make sure they kept drinking fluids. Obviously if you pushed these guys that do huge cuts from the scales directly into the ring they'd perform terribly. That they've got adequate time to rehydrate and refuel though makes the point moot.

[JimStone]

Marciano has got fat legs

>>>Relatively<<< if he showed up at a bodybuilding contest with those legs they'd laugh him off the stage. I'm not suggesting for a moment he's a flubber, I'm merely saying he's got enough surplus to take off the few pounds that would put him within easy cutting distance of super middleweight.

[Senya13]

There's about 1/2 pounds og glycogen stored in the liver, and some not very big amount of it in the muscles. The water I have told you about already. And it's not 1% of dehydration reducing your performance by 10%, it's not as simple as that. You are not anywhere near 60% of your power if you suffer a 4% dehydration. At 6% a fighter would not even be able to walk straight to the scales or stand still without leaning on something or somebody, coordination is affected badly, and you can't speak normally. It requires more than 24 hours to completely rehydrate, so even if you managed to lose 4-5% of water, you wouldn't be strong enough in 24 hours even if you do nothing but drink all day. If you reduce your weight very quickly, it's mostly muscle tissue that you are losing, not fat, and it's not ounces, it's measured in pounds.

[palooka]

Marciano has got fat legs

>>>Relatively<<< if he showed up at a bodybuilding contest with those legs they'd laugh him off the stage. I'm not suggesting for a moment he's a flubber, I'm merely saying he's got enough surplus to take off the few pounds that would put him within easy cutting distance of super middleweight.

I can understand the point that you are making Aden; the thing is, Marciano was a boxer - in the time of 15 round bouts, that's 45 minutes of fighting in a hard era. A bodybuilder can strip to the bone to show tendons and veins and divisions of muscle but they have a posing routine to do - they don't have to fight. I know some bodybuilders who used to compete and they said they were always tired, hungry and bad tempered. He was known for his strength, power and stamina - cutting excess weight is a sensible thing to do but boiling down and then rehydrating isn't the best thing to do - no matter what current supplemement science says - he'd have been as well taking a couple of pounds of blood out of his veins and then reinjecting it after the weigh in ;;-)

[JimStone]

I'm not going to keep arguing over this. Guys who almost certainly have a lower bodyfat percentage than Rocky did currently cut more weight than he would have needed to do in order to make super middleweight today. They rehydrate and refuel and perform well.

Senya, have a look at this blog, it's quite interesting and a good starting point on this subject:

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/20 ... eight-ufc/

[Counter-puncher]

2% water loss cuts your workrate by 20%: FACT

I know why he's produced that stat. There's a rule of thumb that for every 1% you are dehydrated you lose 10% in performance and it's actually not bad. We used to instil that idea into young soldiers to make sure they kept drinking fluids. Obviously if you pushed these guys that do huge cuts from the scales directly into the ring they'd perform terribly. That they've got adequate time to rehydrate and refuel though makes the point moot.

indeed

[Senya13]

Senya, have a look at this blog, it's quite interesting and a good starting point on this subject:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/20 ... eight-ufc/

It didn't say how much muscles he lost. If his percentage of body fat was pretty low before he started, he must have lost 5-10 pounds of muscles. At 10% dehydration (12 pounds loss) heat regulation and chemical processes in the cells are affected, a man needs urgent medical help because just drinking water won't help anymore.

[dempseyfire]

There is (relatively) quite a lot of fat on him, especially in the hamstring and gluteus region. These areas are notoriously difficult to shift weight from if you are unfortunate enough to have a lot of fat cells in that area (it's a 'problem' women tend to have more than men) but taking off a few extra pounds would be a cinch with what we know about macros today.

A cut alone could bag him 12lbs so he'd only actually have to lose four additional pounds of tissue to be able to do super middleweight comfortably.

This is one of the most moronic posts I've ever seen in over 10 years on this website . . . .seriously.

[JimStone]

There is (relatively) quite a lot of fat on him, especially in the hamstring and gluteus region. These areas are notoriously difficult to shift weight from if you are unfortunate enough to have a lot of fat cells in that area (it's a 'problem' women tend to have more than men) but taking off a few extra pounds would be a cinch with what we know about macros today.

A cut alone could bag him 12lbs so he'd only actually have to lose four additional pounds of tissue to be able to do super middleweight comfortably.

This is one of the most moronic posts I've ever seen in over 10 years on this website . . . .seriously.

Great retort, thanks.

Maybe consider taking the blinders off for a moment though and take a look at how bigger guys than Marciano are fighting down as far as middleweight today.

[p4p1]

There is a lot of guys in this thread who have no idea how cutting weight works these days. Having done it and also having some very close mates who have done it let me say at 184lbs Marciano would cut to make 175 very easily and 168 is a real possibility. The guys who are very good at it use a lot of supplements and a lot of practice to rehydrate. Cutting weight is not healthy at all it is hell for your body but everyone does it now some guys much better than others. You can't tell me that someone with Marcianos will and work ethic would figure out how to become excellent at cutting weight and rehydrating properly.

[Senya13]

There is a lot of guys in this thread who have no idea how cutting weight works these days. Having done it and also having some very close mates who have done it

If you are willing to suffer considerable loss of muscles, you can cut that much.

It doesn't matter what supplements or practice you use, there's a certain limit of dehydration beyond which you won't be able to pass without ruining your health, with possible fatal results. It's human physiology.

The page also talks how he's eating meat and other foods that have low carbohydrates in large quantities. Anyone who studied different types of diets is aware of that kind of diet, what he's eating is not providing him with energy, the fats he intakes are just passing through his body, making him not feel hungry, but not breaking up, not transforming into energy. His body is receiving energy from the fat and muscle tissues already contained in his body. If his level of body fat was low, it was mostly muscles which were breaking up.

[evrenb]

He got a lot of energy out of a steak it seems as i have never witnessed any fighter with such energy in the ring. The 'science' doesnt always add up does it?

[p4p1]

There is a lot of guys in this thread who have no idea how cutting weight works these days. Having done it and also having some very close mates who have done it

If you are willing to suffer considerable loss of muscles, you can cut that much.

It doesn't matter what supplements or practice you use, there's a certain limit of dehydration beyond which you won't be able to pass without ruining your health, with possible fatal results. It's human physiology.

The page also talks how he's eating meat and other foods that have low carbohydrates in large quantities. Anyone who studied different types of diets is aware of that kind of diet, what he's eating is not providing him with energy, the fats he intakes are just passing through his body, making him not feel hungry, but not breaking up, not transforming into energy. His body is receiving energy from the fat and muscle tissues already contained in his body. If his level of body fat was low, it was mostly muscles which were breaking up.

No that kind of cut you don't need to lose any muscle 15 pounds is very doable for someone of Marcianos build using dehydration. I don't know if you have ever cut weight and then had 24 hours to rehydrate but 15 pounds is not that big of a cut. I won't lie I have never done that big of a cut but have still been on both sides and my worst cut was actually one where I took the least amount of weight off. If you do your homework and are disciplined(like Marciano was) 15 pounds for a sort stocky guy is no sweat(haha get it). I have seen mates take off 18lbs rehydrate properly go out there and still get the win and feel good while doing it. I have also seen the same mate fornicate up his cut and end up in hospital (and still win). There is wrestlers that do 8-10 lbs on the day of comp and be fine though obviously not 100% for their first match. So yes it is very doable and just because you're not sure how these guys do it properly it doesn't mean others don't.

[Senya13]

If you reduced 15 pounds, and if you were not fat at that time, you lost several pounds of muscles, no matter what anybody else told you. You just never measured it, that's why you don't know about that.

[p4p1]

If you reduced 15 pounds, and if you were not fat at that time, you lost several pounds of muscles, no matter what anybody else told you. You just never measured it, that's why you don't know about that.

No you do dehydrate your muscles but you do not burn 15lbs of muscle you can't burn that amount of calories in a few hours. You just don't know much about how fighters cut weight these days. You may lose a lb or to of muscle in the few days leading up to the weigh in but that is it. 15 lbs is easily don't by not eating or drinking 24 hours before the weigh in and the getting in a bath and taking off the rest just before the weigh in.

[Senya13]

He got a lot of energy out of a steak it seems as i have never witnessed any fighter with such energy in the ring. The 'science' doesnt always add up does it?

What are you talking about?

[Senya13]

If you reduced 15 pounds, and if you were not fat at that time, you lost several pounds of muscles, no matter what anybody else told you. You just never measured it, that's why you don't know about that.

No you do dehydrate your muscles but you do not burn 15lbs of muscle you can't burn that amount of calories in a few hours. You just don't know much about how fighters cut weight these days. You may lose a lb or to of muscle in the few days leading up to the weigh in but that is it. 15 lbs is easily don't by not eating or drinking 24 hours before the weigh in and the getting in a bath and taking off the rest just before the weigh in.

Read what I wrote. I said several pounds out of those 15 lbs were muscles, not all 15 were muscles. I may be not quite aware of how fighters cut weight today, but I'm aware of physiology, what our bodies receive energy from and how much water they can lose without too harmful results.

[evrenb]

The page also talks how he's eating meat and other foods that have low carbohydrates in large quantities. Anyone who studied different types of diets is aware of that kind of diet, what he's eating is not providing him with energy, the fats he intakes are just passing through his body, making him not feel hungry, but not breaking up, not transforming into energy. His body is receiving energy from the fat and muscle tissues already contained in his body. If his level of body fat was low, it was mostly muscles which were breaking up.[/quote]
This...? Or am I off the point..?

[p4p1]

If you reduced 15 pounds, and if you were not fat at that time, you lost several pounds of muscles, no matter what anybody else told you. You just never measured it, that's why you don't know about that.

No you do dehydrate your muscles but you do not burn 15lbs of muscle you can't burn that amount of calories in a few hours. You just don't know much about how fighters cut weight these days. You may lose a lb or to of muscle in the few days leading up to the weigh in but that is it. 15 lbs is easily don't by not eating or drinking 24 hours before the weigh in and the getting in a bath and taking off the rest just before the weigh in.

Read what I wrote. I said several pounds out of those 15 lbs were muscles, not all 15 were muscles. I may be not quite aware of how fighters cut weight today, but I'm aware of physiology, what our bodies receive energy from and how much water they can lose without too harmful results.

In that case go to am MMA gym a few days before the guys cut and just see what they do it will surprise you how the do it and how well they do it. It shocked me coming from boxing how they did it and how good you can feel the next day. These guys are not operating at 100% they all know that but the size disadvantage they would be at if they didn't would be too much and in the end puts everybody on a level playing field.

[Senya13]

This...? Or am I off the point..?

I remember what I wrote. I didn't understand who you wrote about.

[Senya13]

In that case go to am MMA gym a few days before the guys cut and just see what they do it will surprise you how the do it and how well they do it.

Do they measure the level of body fat and calculate the weight of their muscle mass before reducing and after? If they do, what numbers do they get, how much fat and muscles do they lose in the process? If they don't measure anything but their weight, I see no point going there.

[evrenb]

This...? Or am I off the point.

.?

I remember what I wrote. I didn't understand who you wrote about.

Okay now you are clear on that what is your view of this?

[SamWise72]

Senya was referring to the article about cutting which was posted, where the guy ate no carbs. Evenrb's response seemed to be about Marciano.

[Senya13]

Okay now you are clear on that what is your view of this?

I still have no idea who you are talking about, but the point is the fats we intake with food are not converted into energy directly. They pass through mouth and stomach virtually untouched, and then are broken down into fatty acids and glycerine in the intestines. Fatty acids, as well as excessive carbohydrates, are used to syntesize fat that is then stored in our body and broken down when necessary to produce energy. So if he ate a steak after the weigh-in, it was split into proteins and fatty acids (and a little of carbohydrates). It takes our organism some time to "process" those fatty acids (as I said, it happens after they left stomach), transport them to fat-producing tissues and liver and there with the help of insuline fatty acids are turned into fat. Then, when the quantity of glycogene in the organism is not enough for person's activity (there's no more than a pound of glycogene in human body at a time), fat is broken down into glycerol and fatty acids, the latter of which are used to produce energy. Fatty acids initially absorbed by intestines cannot be turned into energy directly, they must first be processed to create fat, and then they can be broken down.

[HomicideHenry]

There is a lot of guys in this thread who have no idea how cutting weight works these days. Having done it and also having some very close mates who have done it let me say at 184lbs Marciano would cut to make 175 very easily and 168 is a real possibility. The guys who are very good at it use a lot of supplements and a lot of practice to rehydrate. Cutting weight is not healthy at all it is hell for your body but everyone does it now some guys much better than others. You can't tell me that someone with Marcianos will and work ethic would figure out how to become excellent at cutting weight and rehydrating properly.

Here is Marciano's weight through the years he was an amateur and professional:

Amateur Career:

Totals: 9 wins, 4 losses, 8 knockouts

Debut- Versus Harry Lester (worse possible shape) 230 pounds*
Versus Coley Wallace- 190 pounds (loses a wildly controversial decision)

*Lester was a 3x golden gloves champion; Marciano allegedly smoked two packs of Camels per day and after this fight quit all smoking, drinking, and went on a serious diet program.

Professional Career:

Totals: 49 wins, 0 losses, 43 knockouts

Debut- 192 pounds (1943)

Fought twelve times in total in 1948, the lightest he weighed was 178 pounds; on average for these bouts he weighed in at 183 pounds

1949- Fought thirteen times, the lightest he weighed was 179.4 pounds; on average for these bouts he weighed in at 183 pounds

1950- Fought six times, the lightest he weighed was 183.4 pounds, the heaviest 190.5 pounds; on average he was 187 pounds

1951- Fought seven times, the lightest he weighed was 184 pounds, the heaviest 192.5 pounds; on average he was 187 pounds

1952- Fought five times, the lightest he weighed was 184.5 pounds, the heaviest 189.8 pounds; on average he weighed 187 pounds

1953-1956: Fought six times, the lightest he weighed was 184.5, the heaviest 189 pounds; on average he weighed 187 pounds

1969 Computer Simulated Fight w/ Muhammad Ali: Marciano lost 50 pounds to do the movie; according to the film script Marciano weighed in at 195 pounds, if this be the case then Marciano in post-career life weighed as high as 245 pounds at age 45. Compare this weight listing with his amateur boxing debut weight when he was in his 20's.

Conclusion: Marciano's weight pretty much stood at Cruiserweight even at his lightest (178) in his early career, and was a small heavyweight when in the amatuers. Is it possible he could have cut more weight and made LHW or SMW? Based on results of bouts he had at his lightest, it seems to me he struggled even against mediocre opposition---- at 178 pounds he went three rounds with a 3-4 opponent, had a heck of a time with Lee Savold, etc. his energy and power seemed zapped the lighter he was. Obviously he chose to stay 187 on average because it suited him perfectly for strength, endurance, conditioning, work rate, etc.