Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[BoxBuzz]

Question,

Were the Louisville Sponsoring Group Boys looking out for the best interests of Boxing or
the best interests of their investment.

William Faversham Jr. ran the show, and he was the 'brains' of the operation.

Fair question....and of course they were looking out for their paychecks. But in spite of that, in hindsight, history still took a pretty equitable path for all concerned. Including the various contenders.

[BoxBuzz]

Perhaps a "good fight" was missed.....but with wins over McNeely and Green and losses to Daniels and Chuvalo that year....not sure a fight with Doug would have been an earth shattering event of any kind.

I would have liked to have seen it because it was a chance to address some ambiguity....something you took issue with in the case of Cooper.

It's hard to find your "core principles" at times.

[BoxBuzz]

Duce....I was around when the Pharoes ruled Egypt....lol. Prize fighting has often been about the "Prize". My favorite fighter of my lifetime has been Archie Moore. Watched him several times in "real time"

Anyway....to my odd and admittedly quirky way of thinking, I just made a whole bunch of sense......it's linear, it's logical, it has context and objective info. I'm simply challenging some of your statements by adding some counterpoint and additional data that you felt perhaps "superflous" to the point you postulated. Many of your points seem centered around Ali's "Carnera like" aspects.

But honestly regardless of the various compromising facts surrounding Ali's career, to pretend he was some sort of a "sham" is just whole cloth nonsense.

He's controversial, and he's not everyone's "cup o' tea", but to suggest this guy was some sort of "bad performer" in the very serious art of pugilism.....well it smacks of politics or some sort of personal agenda. And he "engaged" in far more serious options of defense than just about any other historical holder of the belt. Your latest passion has been to attempt to say that any/every contender that he did not get around to, were THE keys to his potential undoing....and he managed to hide from every one. If it is a serious point, I'm simply offering a serious rebuttal.

[BoxBuzz]

Yeah I remember when they brought dirt to the market. I'm still thinkin' it's just a phase...gardener's will eventually turn to Black Magic or Cow manure once they figure out dirt's drawbacks.

Speakin' of dirt, you've been dishin' it out.

Duce, I didn't know that it was clearly documented beyond a doubt that Liston was given such marching orders. I did hear from a very good source that "everyone on the east coast knew" about what you are referring to. Alas....I was near San Diego in those days. On the west coast, we didn't get the memo.

[BoxBuzz]

That's a pretty compelling case. I give up. You have conclusively proven something here beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Just what you have proven will be known only to the eye of the thoughtful readers.

[scallum]

Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............

Do you think Frazier wins if he was the one who didn't fight for 3.5 years?

[evrenb]

Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............

Do you think Frazier wins if he was the one who didn't fight for 3.5 years?

Its a bit in between Ali was back but nowhere near his best.....Ali would have won if there wasnt a lay off...I dont understand all this Ali bashing....sad really....Il Duce you should work as a divorce lawyer representing the female party...
evrenb

[yancey]

Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............

Do you think Frazier wins if he was the one who didn't fight for 3.5 years?

Ali had 18 rounds in the ring in the 6 month run-up to the FOTC.

Frazier had 2 rounds and was coming off a fractured ankle and had BP issues.

Only when he lost, did the Ali camp start the lay-off excuse. Their allies in the media then carried the drumbeat and sure enough the propaganda eventually filtered down to the non-critical thinker, low information class.

That class has representation here on BoxRec.

Ali lost The Big One, fair and square.

Man up and deal with it.

Jesus bless.

[loaded_gloves]

Everyone has dealt with it, Yance. It seems you still haven't dealt with it, forty long years later.

Duce, if only you could spread the news of the Ali/Liston fix. You seem to be the last man living who knows the truth. Stop wasting your time on an obscure forum and take it to the media, please!

[evrenb]

This not 'Muhammad Ali Bashing',

Just one persons opinion.

It seems to me, you can't have an objective view when discussing Muhammad Ali.

Ali - 2 wins over frazier
frazier - 1 win (highly contentious) over ali...I thought Ali won easy...

evrenb

[loaded_gloves]

Ali - 2 wins over frazier
frazier - 1 win (highly contentious) over ali...I thought Ali won easy...

evrenb

Evren... you surely must accept you are in a very small minority to call Frazier/Ali I 'highly contentious' and say Ali won easy?

You do your credibility no favours taking such an untenable position, every bit as silly as the two Ali Bashers on the opposite end of the spectrum.

[evrenb]

Ali - 2 wins over frazier
frazier - 1 win (highly contentious) over ali...I thought Ali won easy...

evrenb

Evren... you surely must accept you are in a very small minority to call Frazier/Ali I 'highly contentious' and say Ali won easy?

You do your credibility no favours taking such an untenable position, every bit as silly as the two Ali Bashers on the opposite end of the spectrum.

lol

I have no credibility left :-(
Just being controversial - Frazier won okay..im sorry. But it wasnt the best Ali. That must be admitted too ....

evren

[yancey]

Everyone has dealt with it, Yance. It seems you still haven't dealt with it, forty long years later.

Duce, if only you could spread the news of the Ali/Liston fix. You seem to be the last man living who knows the truth. Stop wasting your time on an obscure forum and take it to the media, please!

Everyone has "dealt with it", right?

Then why the constant "lay-off" excuse?

That excuse only got started after Ali lost.

If you enter the ring, then you discard the excuses.

[evrenb]

Correct me if I'm wrong,

But when Muhammad Ali returned to the Ring on October 26, 1970 against Jerry Quarry,

It was "Mr. Ali" who wanted the bout scheduled for 15-Rounds, not 10 or 12.

As he claimed, "I am the Champion and have been ready to go 15-Rounds with anybody,
as I am the best Muhammad Ali ever."

Now, who would call Muhammad Ali a 'liar'.

....god this is pathetic....you can make arguments against any human that ever existed and denegrate them....
Its like this ; Ali was the greatest thing that ever happened to boxing....along with robinson the greatest fighter that ever lived ...
For goodness sake he beat Frazier twice, Foreman, Liston twice, patterson twice, Shavers, Lyle, Quarry twice, chuvalo twice, jimmy ellis, norton twice, bonavena, mathis and most importantly rudi lubbers...i could go on and on.....ali talked and talked and talked and put a lot of people off him....he was clearly a phenomenon...he had charisma, good looks, longevity and the 'game' was alive when he fought....as for Ali being a 'liar' you are obviously using his 'gob' to hype up....I just watched ali frazier 1 again for the first time in years...I must contradict myself again.....ali won that fight in my opinion...

[p4p1]

And Ali wasn't past his best or faded in all of their fights?

[scallum]

Correct me if I'm wrong,

But when Muhammad Ali returned to the Ring on October 26, 1970 against Jerry Quarry,

It was "Mr. Ali" who wanted the bout scheduled for 15-Rounds, not 10 or 12.

As he claimed, "I am the Champion and have been ready to go 15-Rounds with anybody,
as I am the best Muhammad Ali ever."

Now, who would call Muhammad Ali a 'liar'.

Quarry is not Frazier. What would have happened if Ali fought Frazier first fight back

[p4p1]

And Ali wasn't past his best or faded in all of their fights?

I agree with your accurate statement......

Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

[yancey]

And Ali wasn't past his best or faded in all of their fights?

I agree with your accurate statement......

Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

So if someone does not necessarily think post-exile Ali was "past his best" then that automatically makes that someone a "hater", right?

Is that the extent of your reasoning abilities?

Pitiful.

[p4p1]

I agree with your accurate statement......

Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

So if someone does not necessarily think post-exile Ali was "past his best" then that automatically makes that someone a "hater", right?

Is that the extent of your reasoning abilities?

Pitiful.

No, maybe I should of just called him a fool. Considering many of his other responses in this thread I would say he has some kind of hate for Ali. While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that. Frazier put on a hell of a performance that night and I am not saying he didn't but you can't take that amount of time off from any sport and still come back as good or better than you were when you left it.

[Senya13]

While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that.

How does being a different fighter (different stylewise) make post-exile Ali worse than pre-exile? Both versions had their advantages and disadvantages.

[p4p1]

While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that.

How does being a different fighter (different stylewise) make post-exile Ali worse than pre-exile? Both versions had their advantages and disadvantages.

He had to be a different fighter because he lost some of his physical gifts, He adapted like a great fighter does.

[Senya13]

He had to be a different fighter because he lost some of his physical gifts, He adapted like a great fighter does.

He lost some gifts, but he also gained some (toughness). And does that mean he was worse than pre-exile?

[p4p1]

He had to be a different fighter because he lost some of his physical gifts, He adapted like a great fighter does.

He lost some gifts, but he also gained some (toughness). And does that mean he was worse than pre-exile?

How do you know he gained it he most probably always had that but before he lost those gifts he never had to use them to the extent he did post-exile. Every time he had to use toughness either physically or mentally pre-exile he still came through, though he didn't have to anywhere near as often. I don't think being tough how Ali(and many other fighters) was is something you can learn it is just something you're born with.

[hhaehre]

Wasn't a statement.... ? this little thing here lets you know if something is written in the form of a question. But wow if you really don't believe Ali was past his best after the exile you're a real hater.

So if someone does not necessarily think post-exile Ali was "past his best" then that automatically makes that someone a "hater", right?

Is that the extent of your reasoning abilities?

Pitiful.

No, maybe I should of just called him a fool. Considering many of his other responses in this thread I would say he has some kind of hate for Ali. While Ali was still great after his exile he was no longer the same fighter he was before, Most reasonable people would admit that. Frazier put on a hell of a performance that night and I am not saying he didn't but you can't take that amount of time off from any sport and still come back as good or better than you were when you left it.

Jeez, it sounds like Ali was away for 20 years. It was 3.5 years and many fighters have had similar or longer stretches of inactivity and still come back strong. Leonard had one fight from 1982 until he beat Hagler in 87. I guess SRL just had more talent than Ali.

[Senya13]

How do you know he gained it he most probably always had that but before he lost those gifts he never had to use them to the extent he did post-exile. Every time he had to use toughness either physically or mentally pre-exile he still came through, though he didn't have to anywhere near as often. I don't think being tough how Ali(and many other fighters) was is something you can learn it is just something you're born with.

How do you know he always had it, if he was dropped by Banks and Cooper, no big punchers, and wanted to quit vs Liston?