Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[p4p1]

How do you know he gained it he most probably always had that but before he lost those gifts he never had to use them to the extent he did post-exile. Every time he had to use toughness either physically or mentally pre-exile he still came through, though he didn't have to anywhere near as often. I don't think being tough how Ali(and many other fighters) was is something you can learn it is just something you're born with.

How do you know he always had it, if he was dropped by Banks and Cooper, no big punchers, and wanted to quit vs Liston?

Was dropped and straight back up both we're pretty good punchers and sometimes a punch lands in a perfect spot with the right amount of power. In the Liston fight he was almost blinded and in serious pain, would you want to go out and fight Liston when you are having serious trouble seeing, not to mention he recovered and continued kicking Listons ass.

[Senya13]

So Banks and Cooper were the best boxers and punchers overall that he met, outside of Frazier? Where was he blinded if Liston couldn't land a jab on him? Where was this "serious pain", exactly, what signs of pain were there at all to be seen?

[p4p1]

So Banks and Cooper were the best boxers and punchers overall that he met, outside of Frazier? Where was he blinded if Liston couldn't land a jab on him? Where was this "serious pain", exactly, what signs of pain were there at all to be seen?

Neither knocked him out they got the same end result as Frazier did after the knockdown he got back up at about the count of 3. Look at the tape between rounds when he looks extremely uncomfortable, not to mention the numerous eye witness reports and the fact that others that Liston had fought had the same complaints. He didn't stop moving in the round he was having problems and he did get landed on but nothing that Liston was able to hurt him with. You're trying to make it sound like when he was having those problems he stood infront at punching range and slipped all the punches that came at him. The idea that he suddenly got tough after he lost some movement and speed is just ridiculous. As I said before every time pre-exile he was faced with adversity he still came through it and never folded. So where is the proof that he wasn't tough either mentally or physically pre-exile other than the fact after about the age of 21 he didn't have to take any punishment? So all you rally have is a hope

[Senya13]

So he was just as tough, but where Frazier needed a dozen rounds of hard punching to weaken him enough to drop him, Banks and Cooper needed single punches to do the same? What a weak puncher Frazier was compared to these two.

Uncomfortable = nervous breakdown, he wasn't as tough mentally as he was post-exile, it's as simple as that.

What numerous same- or next-day eye witnesses were there? There was a version that Liston's hard jab when he landed to the head made some of his opponents dizzy, not that there was something wrong with their eyes.

Try closing your eyes until there is only very thin slit left for you to see through, don't open them any wider, and get into the ring with somebody who is a very good boxer and who has a very hostile attitude toward you for whatever reasons, and try moving as much as you want around, let's see how long will you last?

[SteveO]

If Ali was ever going to be knocked out, surely it would have been against Frazier in the final round of their first fight. They had been in a gruelling contest and almost drained of energy when Frazier landed a perfect left hook - Ali's jaw was already swelling when he hit the canvas.
A lesser mortal would have been unable to get up from that but Ali rose quickly and continued the fight. In my opinion that took a superhuman effort and will - a genuine testament to his courage, powers of recovery and toughness.

[hhaehre]

If Ali was ever going to be knocked out, surely it would have been against Frazier in the final round of their first fight.

Ali actually looked more hurt in the 11th. The way he reacted when he was knocked down in the 15th made it look like a flash knock down. Amazing that anyone can get up like that from such a devastating punch.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali (Clay) was very young and inexperienced when he fought Banks. He was down for about a second and was not the least bit hurt. It is a perfect example of a flash knockdown. He has still not reached his prime when he fought Cooper; it was just his 19th pro fight. He was still at the stage where he was improving with every fight. He got careless and got caught.

He was not hurt or knocked down in 10 title fights from 1964-1967.

Ray Leonard fought a great fight vs Haglar in 1987. However, it certainly was not the best fight of his career. Ali fought two fights and 18 rounds between the Folley and Frazier fights. Frazier had 12 fights and 67 rounds. That is a huge difference.

If anyone can name another fighter who was off for 3 and a half years, (or even close) and was better when they came back, please name them.

[BoxBuzz]

Honest to god, I think the greatest argument/debate for those like me who GENUINELY like both Frazier and Ali is this.

Was Joe Frazier's left hook that knocked down Ali the story of that round/ these men/ that fight OR

Was it that Ali got up and got back into the fight, was THAT the story of that round/these men/that fight.

The answer to that question has caused more boxing related bar fights than any other.

As Much as I like both men....I think it was Ali's recovery that was the more amazing event.

And so.....all fans of Joe regard me as a traitor to their cause. Even though both these guys are in my top 3 favorite fighters of all time.

[scallum]

Ali (Clay) was very young and inexperienced when he fought Banks. He was down for about a second and was not the least bit hurt. It is a perfect example of a flash knockdown. He has still not reached his prime when he fought Cooper; it was just his 19th pro fight. He was still at the stage where he was improving with every fight. He got careless and got caught.

He was not hurt or knocked down in 10 title fights from 1964-1967.

Ray Leonard fought a great fight vs Haglar in 1987. However, it certainly was not the best fight of his career. Ali fought two fights and 18 rounds between the Folley and Frazier fights. Frazier had 12 fights and 67 rounds. That is a huge difference.

If anyone can name another fighter who was off for 3 and a half years, (or even close) and was better when they came back, please name them.

This should end this debate for reasonable folks lol

[scallum]

Game over

[yancey]

In the most important fight of both Frazier and Ali's careers, at the time when both were nearest their actual peaks and both knowing that this was THE moment, with the whole world stopped and watching the most important fight of the 20th century, Frazier prevailed.

And that's a fact, Jack.

[hhaehre]

If anyone can name another fighter who was off for 3 and a half years, (or even close) and was better when they came back, please name them.

The argument isn't that Ali was better after the layoff but that he was no worse than if he had been active those three and a half years and that he was still in his prime.
Eder Jofre came back after a 3 year layoff and won a title, he never lost again and he was several years older than Ali when he came back. The fact that very few have been able to come back at the highest level does not mean that it is impossible. Ali was a remarkable fighter and like Leonard and Jofre he did come back to regain his old glory.

[Senya13]

Ali (Clay) was very young and inexperienced when he fought Banks. He was down for about a second and was not the least bit hurt. It is a perfect example of a flash knockdown. He has still not reached his prime when he fought Cooper; it was just his 19th pro fight. He was still at the stage where he was improving with every fight. He got careless and got caught.

All other "always tough" fighters were young and inexperienced too, and most didn't go down for larger part of their career, usually down for the first time at a very old age. How this can be cited as an excuse for Ali, I don't know.

If anyone can name another fighter who was off for 3 and a half years, (or even close) and was better when they came back, please name them.

It all comes down to a definition of what can be considered "better". Post-exile Ali was better at short and mid-range fighting, than a younger one who stuck to long-range most of the time. There's no way a younger Cassius Clay would be able to stay at long range vs Joe Frazier for any long period of time, and he'd get battered at short range much worse than post-exile one was.

As for examples... Jersey Joe Walcott.

[Giancarlo]

Shite 'examples'

[Ambling Alp II]

Walcott fought on the inside some as well. And he while he was very good, he wasn't as good as a prime Ali at moving and fighting from the outside. And he almost made it against Marciano and he was not coming off a layoff. Disagree that Ali was better at mid range and inside fighting after his comeback. He just didn't need to do that as often in his prime.
Ali's stamina was not nearly as good when he first came back. He was gassed by the mid rounds. After he had been back a while, that improved some. He was clearly better in the mid-1960s than the 1970s; and most of his fights in the 1970s he was better than he had been vs Bonavena and the first Frazier fight.

Early in his career, Joe Frazier himself got decked by the legendary Mike Bruce. Larry Holmes got knocked down by Kevin Isaac. Like Ali (Clay) they were still learning. It happens sometimes.

Ali was never hurt or knocked or knocked down in 10 title fights from 1964-1967. People can nitpick all you want about the competition, that is pretty impressive.

[yancey]

Walcott fought on the inside some as well. And he while he was very good, he wasn't as good as a prime Ali at moving and fighting from the outside. And he almost made it against Marciano and he was not coming off a layoff. Disagree that Ali was better at mid range and inside fighting after his comeback. He just didn't need to do that as often in his prime.
Ali's stamina was not nearly as good when he first came back. He was gassed by the mid rounds. After he had been back a while, that improved some. He was clearly better in the mid-1960s than the 1970s; and most of his fights in the 1970s he was better than he had been vs Bonavena and the first Frazier fight.

Early in his career, Joe Frazier himself got decked by the legendary Mike Bruce. Larry Holmes got knocked down by Kevin Isaac. Like Ali (Clay) they were still learning. It happens sometimes.

Ali was never hurt or knocked or knocked down in 10 title fights from 1964-1967. People can nitpick all you want about the competition, that is pretty impressive.

When one is FORCED to fight for three minutes EVERY round they have a tendency to get "gassed".

If anyone thinks '66 Ali dances and runs like a gazelle for 15 rounds against what Frazier brought on 3/8/71, then they are a freaking idiot and beyond hopeless.

3/8/71 Ali was a great fighter who gave one of the best efforts of his career. That fighter brought a toughness to the table that pre-exile Ali never showed or had to have.

But he got beat in his biggest moment on the biggest stage.

And that's a fact, Jack.

[BoxBuzz]

Well.....the BIGGEST stage may well have been Zaire.

But your point is made. One I don't tend to argue with..... But when Foreman zonked both Frazier and Norton like they were smart ass teenagers, this led up to a fight that, like it or not, ended up to be just as big a deal...if not bigger. And Foreman's later successes makes the legend more compelling.

[yancey]

Well.....the BIGGEST stage may well have been Zaire.

But your point is made. One I don't tend to argue with..... But when Foreman zonked both Frazier and Norton like they were smart ass teenagers, this led up to a fight that, like it or not, ended up to be just as big a deal...if not bigger. And Foreman's later successes makes the legend more compelling.

Wow, I don't see Zaire really being in the same category.

What would put it in the stratosphere is that the mainstream media got the "right" winner.

I don't get ESPN Classics, but my guess is Zaire and Manila get shown a gazillion times.

The FOTC......not so much. DD

Darn Joe had to go and spoil that script. DD

[yancey]

Shite 'examples'

Shite examples for a shite poster, I reckon.



Jesus bless

[BoxBuzz]

Well.....the BIGGEST stage may well have been Zaire.

But your point is made. One I don't tend to argue with..... But when Foreman zonked both Frazier and Norton like they were smart ass teenagers, this led up to a fight that, like it or not, ended up to be just as big a deal...if not bigger. And Foreman's later successes makes the legend more compelling.

Wow, I don't see Zaire really being in the same category.

DD

Of course you don't.....Joe wasn't there. I don't feel it was in the same class.....but the same category? Biggest fight hoopla of all time? Yeah....I think it's in that category.

[scallum]

Walcott fought on the inside some as well. And he while he was very good, he wasn't as good as a prime Ali at moving and fighting from the outside. And he almost made it against Marciano and he was not coming off a layoff. Disagree that Ali was better at mid range and inside fighting after his comeback. He just didn't need to do that as often in his prime.
Ali's stamina was not nearly as good when he first came back. He was gassed by the mid rounds. After he had been back a while, that improved some. He was clearly better in the mid-1960s than the 1970s; and most of his fights in the 1970s he was better than he had been vs Bonavena and the first Frazier fight.

Early in his career, Joe Frazier himself got decked by the legendary Mike Bruce. Larry Holmes got knocked down by Kevin Isaac. Like Ali (Clay) they were still learning. It happens sometimes.

Ali was never hurt or knocked or knocked down in 10 title fights from 1964-1967. People can nitpick all you want about the competition, that is pretty impressive.

When one is FORCED to fight for three minutes EVERY round they have a tendency to get "gassed".

If anyone thinks '66 Ali dances and runs like a gazelle for 15 rounds against what Frazier brought on 3/8/71, then they are a freaking idiot and beyond hopeless.

3/8/71 Ali was a great fighter who gave one of the best efforts of his career. That fighter brought a toughness to the table that pre-exile Ali never showed or had to have.

But he got beat in his biggest moment on the biggest stage.

And that's a fact, Jack.

If its factual that Ali was never pushed to the limit in the 60s how do a know he wasn't already tough? Maybe the hassle of worries about doing serious jail time made him less ?

[Ambling Alp II]

Well.....the BIGGEST stage may well have been Zaire.

But your point is made. One I don't tend to argue with..... But when Foreman zonked both Frazier and Norton like they were smart ass teenagers, this led up to a fight that, like it or not, ended up to be just as big a deal...if not bigger. And Foreman's later successes makes the legend more compelling.

Wow, I don't see Zaire really being in the same category.

What would put it in the stratosphere is that the mainstream media got the "right" winner.

I don't get ESPN Classics, but my guess is Zaire and Manila get shown a gazillion times.

The FOTC......not so much. DD

Darn Joe had to go and spoil that script. DD

Well maybe the rest of the world doesn't arbitrarily think the first Frazier fights "more important" just because it's the only one that your guy won. Maybe it's because those two fights were better fights.
"The biggest stage" total BS.

1-4 vs Foreman and Ali, and yet by coincidence the only one that you think counts is the only one of the 5 that Frazier won.

[Giancarlo]

Shite examples for a shite poster, I reckon.

Here's a photo of two nice guys having fun together.

Not the usual man on man fun you like to view but you'll probably knock one out over Joe.

[hhaehre]

1-4 vs Foreman and Ali, and yet by coincidence the only one that you think counts is the only one of the 5 that Frazier won.

Of course the other fights count but FOTC was still the biggest fight of Ali's career, it's arguably the biggest fight in hw history. I don't see how that's even debatable, two undefeated atg's for the biggest price in boxing. How could it be any bigger?

[yancey]

1-4 vs Foreman and Ali, and yet by coincidence the only one that you think counts is the only one of the 5 that Frazier won.

Of course the other fights count but FOTC was still the biggest fight of Ali's career, it's arguably the biggest fight in hw history. I don't see how that's even debatable, two undefeated atg's for the biggest price in boxing. How could it be any bigger?

Of course this is all unquestionably true, but they will try to rationalize it all away. It's in their DNA.

DD