Is UFC (MMA) overtaking boxing or has it already happened?

[jamesmcdonnell]

MMA has plateaued everywhere bar the US, Canada and Brazil. It never got going in India and is declining here - UFC runs less shows in the UK and the lower-level groups are fading. The sport is doing well in the US, with UFC maintaining their position (GSP-Hendricks next week will be huge) and Bellator making strides, though the UFC monopoly which has wiped out Pride and Strikeforce may not be good for business long-term as competition stimulates innovation and value; imagine boxing had one unopposed promotional company.

Conversely, while boxing may not make as much on ppv in the US, it's a far bigger and more global sport. Markets like the UK, Mexico, Germany and Japan are thriving in terms of participation levels and live gates, while boxing is performing well in emerging areas like China and Russia also;MMA is not growing, it's maintaining at best. Boxing has a huge amount of professional promoters worldwide, plus the amateur sport and WSB - APB soon also.

Boxing can learn from MMA in terms of marketing and sponsorship, creating an 'event' atmosphere (this is already happening) and, most importantly, making matches fans are desperate to see/willing to pay to see.

But as a sport MMA is less accessible (especially on the ground), is perceived to be more unrefined and brutal (even if yhis is untrue) and has less strength in depth per weight class. Boxing has history and its Olympic status plus it's simply a far more accepted, popular attraction across the globe.

Just saw this, whoops, looks like we're saying pretty much the same thing.

Let's see where UFC, and/or MMA is in 20 years - UFC as a brand might not even be around, and MMA might well have faded into relative obscurity. I remember when Sumo wrestling was on channel 4 every week, and people were talking about it in the school playground - where is it now? Back in Japan, where it started, with only a few people participating from other nations.

[mickey1975]

I remember Kabbadi... Channel four was the culprit, too...

[Final round]

I remember Kabbadi... Channel four was the culprit, too...

Kabbadi! Channel 4 Sunday's I think. Strange game.

[Cap]

UFC/MMA is popular now with the younger guys cause it looks like schoolyard fights they watched when they were in high school. Also doesn't hurt that MMA scrabblers all work for the same company. If boxing had one organization like the International Boxing Union or something, things would be very different. Still with all the ink the MMA stuff gets now in local rags, I can't name even three of their top guys.

Funny. They were running a promo for MMA on TV at a restaurant I was at the other night, and every single one of the MMA guys struck a boxing pose. No karate or leg kicks! DD

[AcademyCC]

Im a fan of both sports but more so boxing. The cards put on by the UFC are of a much higher standard than boxing cards in general. Ofcourse this is because it is one organisation but thats the way it is. Boxing is fragmented and has lost alot of its appeal because of this. As boxing fans we dont get to see all the big fights we really want because they are with different promoters etc. This doesnt happen with the UFC, we consistently get to see the best fight the best.

If boxing was all one organisation with less politics imagine the fights that would and could have happened.

Boxing has always been more mainstream than MMA, however, MMA is still only 20 years old and I think will grow and grow.

[ImAwesome]

I tried to get into MMA but the more i found out about it the more i hated it.

MMA fighters are typically Wrestlers and have nowhere near the striking ability of a Boxer or Kickboxer resulting in an extremely sloppy but entertaining fight. Watch Sanchez Vs Melendez from a couple of weeks back. It was very entertaining as they went toe 2 toe but the skill level was absolutely horrible, neither of them had any business throwing a punch.

It's like if a fight kicks off in the stand at a Boxing event, people will turn around and watch 2 drunks go at it rather than 2 world class athletes because 2 drunks is far more brutal and shocking. MMA fans love Blood & Gore not a showcase of skill & athleticism. I personally couldn't ever see a Cage Fighter being honoured by the Queen or having the sort of fanbase of Ricky Hatton or most Mexican fighters where the whole nation idolizes them. MMA fighters have some hardcore fans but more WWE fans rather than your casual sports fan.

Also we know that the best Boxers are in Boxing but can we honestly say the best MMA fighters are in MMA. The best MMA fighter is probably 1 of the Wrestlers that compete in the olympics or one of the Judo players. MMA is typically full of Wrestling & Judo guys who couldn't make a living out of their original sport or make the olympic team and MMA gave them the opportunity remain a sportsman and make a living.

I'm young and i personally don't see any other young people having an interest in MMA except for the slightly weird kids who wear WWE, Brock Lesnar & TapOut t shirts.

[nfc90210]

...Also we know that the best Boxers are in Boxing but can we honestly say the best MMA fighters are in MMA. The best MMA fighter is probably 1 of the Wrestlers that compete in the olympics or one of the Judo players. MMA is typically full of Wrestling & Judo guys who couldn't make a living out of their original sport or make the olympic team and MMA gave them the opportunity remain a sportsman and make a living...

For most people (yeah, Cael Sanderson does alright) there is no money in wrestling. Half of the wrestlers that the US sent to the Olympics in 2008 are now MMA fighters. That's not a hyperbolic statement. When I say half I actually mean that half of them are MMA fighters.

The best MMA fighters are guys competing in MMA.

Karam Gaber Ibrahim won an Olympic Gold Medal in the Men's Greco-Roman 96 kg class at the 2004 Olympics. He was, and I'm using a story Dave Meltzer wrote for Yahoo Sports as a source for this claim, not just an Olympic Gold medalist in 2004 but considered the best wrestler at the 2004 Olympics. In December 2004, just a few months after winning his medal, he fought Kazuyuki Fujita in an MMA fight and knocked out in 1:07. As a postscript, Karam Gaber Ibrahim competed at the 2008 Olympics but didn't medal and competed at 2012 games where things went better and he won an Olympic silver medal, this time in the Greco-Roman 84 kg weight class.

István Majoros was another wrestler who won a gold medal at the 2004 Olympics. He fought Kid Yamamoto in an MMA fight in 2006 and got stopped in 3:46.

The fights described above weren't really fair. The wrestlers were just wrestlers and they were put in with real live MMA fighters. They were simply well credentialed guys who were, to use a cliche, being fed to the wolves. The reason why those fights were made was because when you get a to a certain level in MMA being great at one thing (no matter how great you are that one thing) won't save you.

I should preface this by saying that I still have faith in Satoshi Ishii. That said, Satoshi Ishii won the Olympic Heavyweight judo gold medal in 2008. They (Japanese MMA types) were hoping that he would be the saviour of Japanese MMA. It hasn't panned out. He's now 10-2-1 and is actually now on a 5 fight win streak, but it's, pretty much, been a carefully built record. If you know anything about MMA and look at it you will get what I mean. Anyway, Ishii fought Fedor on New Year's Eve 2011. By that stage Fedor had already lost a step and was coming off three stoppage loses. He destroyed Ishii in 2:20. That gave Ishii the distinction of being the third Olympic medalist that Fedor had beaten.

The names mentioned aren't the complete sum total of Olympians in MMA. They are just a few examples.

Also, people scoff at the idea that Brock Lesnar did so well in MMA. An interesting bit of trivia though. In his very first MMA fight Lesnaer absolutely massacred an Olympic judo medalist.

A great base is a great base. That is all it is though. The idea that the best MMA fighters are in Olympics isn't true. There are guys in the Olympics with great potential as MMA fighters but that is all it is. Potential.

[jamesmcdonnell]

...Also we know that the best Boxers are in Boxing but can we honestly say the best MMA fighters are in MMA. The best MMA fighter is probably 1 of the Wrestlers that compete in the olympics or one of the Judo players. MMA is typically full of Wrestling & Judo guys who couldn't make a living out of their original sport or make the olympic team and MMA gave them the opportunity remain a sportsman and make a living...

For most people (yeah, Cael Sanderson does alright) there is no money in wrestling. Half of the wrestlers that the US sent to the Olympics in 2008 are now MMA fighters. That's not a hyperbolic statement. When I say half I actually mean that half of them are MMA fighters.

The best MMA fighters are guys competing in MMA.

Karam Gaber Ibrahim won an Olympic Gold Medal in the Men's Greco-Roman 96 kg class at the 2004 Olympics. He was, and I'm using a story Dave Meltzer wrote for Yahoo Sports as a source for this claim, not just an Olympic Gold medalist in 2004 but considered the best wrestler at the 2004 Olympics. In December 2004, just a few months after winning his medal, he fought Kazuyuki Fujita in an MMA fight and knocked out in 1:07. As a postscript, Karam Gaber Ibrahim competed at the 2008 Olympics but didn't medal and competed at 2012 games where things went better and he won an Olympic silver medal, this time in the Greco-Roman 84 kg weight class.

István Majoros was another wrestler who won a gold medal at the 2004 Olympics. He fought Kid Yamamoto in an MMA fight in 2006 and got stopped in 3:46.

The fights described above weren't really fair. The wrestlers were just wrestlers and they were put in with real live MMA fighters. They were simply well credentialed guys who were, to use a cliche, being fed to the wolves. The reason why those fights were made was because when you get a to a certain level in MMA being great at one thing (no matter how great you are that one thing) won't save you.

I should preface this by saying that I still have faith in Satoshi Ishii. That said, Satoshi Ishii won the Olympic Heavyweight judo gold medal in 2008. They (Japanese MMA types) were hoping that he would be the saviour of Japanese MMA. It hasn't panned out. He's now 10-2-1 and is actually now on a 5 fight win streak, but it's, pretty much, been a carefully built record. If you know anything about MMA and look at it you will get what I mean. Anyway, Ishii fought Fedor on New Year's Eve 2011. By that stage Fedor had already lost a step and was coming off three stoppage loses. He destroyed Ishii in 2:20. That gave Ishii the distinction of being the third Olympic medalist that Fedor had beaten.

The names mentioned aren't the complete sum total of Olympians in MMA. They are just a few examples.

Also, people scoff at the idea that Brock Lesnar did so well in MMA. An interesting bit of trivia though. In his very first MMA fight Lesnaer absolutely massacred an Olympic judo medalist.

A great base is a great base. That is all it is though. The idea that the best MMA fighters are in Olympics isn't true. There are guys in the Olympics with great potential as MMA fighters but that is all it is. Potential.

I'll say this, Jon Jones is for real, the guy is a serious athlete, and one hell of a fighter, he'd have done well in any fighting art. I like MMA, and some of the fights are great, it's not as aesthetically pleasing as boxing, but these guys are proper fighters.

Interestingly, MMA seems to be becoming more and more standup oriented. The thing is, you need to remember, boxing used to have throws, locks, choke holds and wrestling, and evolved into boxing, the same is happening to MMA.

[Deserter]

I tried to get into MMA but the more i found out about it the more i hated it.

MMA fighters are typically Wrestlers and have nowhere near the striking ability of a Boxer or Kickboxer resulting in an extremely sloppy but entertaining fight. Watch Sanchez Vs Melendez from a couple of weeks back. It was very entertaining as they went toe 2 toe but the skill level was absolutely horrible, neither of them had any business throwing a punch.

It's like if a fight kicks off in the stand at a Boxing event, people will turn around and watch 2 drunks go at it rather than 2 world class athletes because 2 drunks is far more brutal and shocking. MMA fans love Blood & Gore not a showcase of skill & athleticism. I personally couldn't ever see a Cage Fighter being honoured by the Queen or having the sort of fanbase of Ricky Hatton or most Mexican fighters where the whole nation idolizes them. MMA fighters have some hardcore fans but more WWE fans rather than your casual sports fan.

Also we know that the best Boxers are in Boxing but can we honestly say the best MMA fighters are in MMA. The best MMA fighter is probably 1 of the Wrestlers that compete in the olympics or one of the Judo players. MMA is typically full of Wrestling & Judo guys who couldn't make a living out of their original sport or make the olympic team and MMA gave them the opportunity remain a sportsman and make a living.

I'm young and i personally don't see any other young people having an interest in MMA except for the slightly weird kids who wear WWE, Brock Lesnar & TapOut t shirts.

A remarkably ill-informed and ignorant post.

[Deserter]

Given there are some decent posts on the subject I'll weigh in with some thoughts as well, as the whole debate is more nuanced than some are portraying.
Firstly, it's important to distinguish between UFC and other MMA promotions, as UFC is an anomaly in that no other organisation has been able to replicate its success. First and foremost it's a triumph of marketing and branding, and it's far too early to talk about it plateauing or failing to penetrate new markets when they're investing sensibly and have the likes of Garry Cook at the helm (ex Nike and Manchester City CEO).
However, it's definitely true that other promotional bodies, particularly in the UK, have struggled to get any kind of traction and that situation doesn't look like changing any time soon.
Comparisons to sumo etc are deeply flawed however, not least because of the participation levels, which naturally create 'hardcore' fans of the sport. Most decent-sized towns in the UK now have a couple of MMA clubs and the majority of participants are young, so there's a base of support there that is going to remain - though I think it's probably more accurate to say this is impacting more on traditional martial arts participation rather than boxing.
The biggest challenge for increasing MMA's public engagement is that unlike boxing there are aspects, particularly in terms of the ground game, that remain baffling and/or unengaging for the layman, so it creates a real barrier to entry. You really have to have decent knowledge to appreciate some of these nuances, that will just leave the proverbial 'man on the street' cold. However, those that criticise the striking part of MMA also frequently make the mistake of comparing it directly to boxing, whilst ignoring the fact it's a different sport that requires a different approach - due to the risk of takedowns etc your stance has to be different, while 4oz gloves, knees and elbows also necessitate different tactics - you can't stand in the pocket and slip shots, for example, as you'll just get thai-clinched and have your opponent land multiple knees in the head!
Finally, it's also way too easy to forget that MMA is a 'baby' in evolutionary terms - look how long boxing has been around, while with MMA is really only about 15 to 20-years-old. Even within that space of time there's been a huge leap in terms of brawlers like Tank Abbott being left behind and true athletes coming through such as Jon Jones and GSP. Anyone who doesn't appreciate the huge amount of professionalism and technical expertise involved at the highest level are just displaying a huge level of ignorance.
The bottom line is that it's way too early to talk about what the future of MMA will be and most importantly I think the whole MMA taking over boxing thing is increasingly a red herring and the last couple of years have really made me think that the two can co-exist comfortably and potentially even complement one another in terms of encouraging a general love of combat sports.

[mickey1975]

I will say one thing for the UFC. You could get in at a quarter of the price last month... Bargain.

[Final round]

Although I respect the toughness of the competitors and the different skills involved in all the disciplines as a specatator sport it's a bit of a mish mash. I think it would fare better if they cut out the ground game altogether. The choking out and general bludgeoning of a prone opponent on the floor is not really sporting in any way and although I appreciate there are some masters at this sort of attack and defence it's not easy on the eye and puts a few people off.
They should do away with the cages too, it looks like a redneck event with two animals in there not two well trained athletes.

[danamba7]

Given there are some decent posts on the subject I'll weigh in with some thoughts as well, as the whole debate is more nuanced than some are portraying.
Firstly, it's important to distinguish between UFC and other MMA promotions, as UFC is an anomaly in that no other organisation has been able to replicate its success. First and foremost it's a triumph of marketing and branding, and it's far too early to talk about it plateauing or failing to penetrate new markets when they're investing sensibly and have the likes of Garry Cook at the helm (ex Nike and Manchester City CEO).
However, it's definitely true that other promotional bodies, particularly in the UK, have struggled to get any kind of traction and that situation doesn't look like changing any time soon.
Comparisons to sumo etc are deeply flawed however, not least because of the participation levels, which naturally create 'hardcore' fans of the sport. Most decent-sized towns in the UK now have a couple of MMA clubs and the majority of participants are young, so there's a base of support there that is going to remain - though I think it's probably more accurate to say this is impacting more on traditional martial arts participation rather than boxing.
The biggest challenge for increasing MMA's public engagement is that unlike boxing there are aspects, particularly in terms of the ground game, that remain baffling and/or unengaging for the layman, so it creates a real barrier to entry. You really have to have decent knowledge to appreciate some of these nuances, that will just leave the proverbial 'man on the street' cold. However, those that criticise the striking part of MMA also frequently make the mistake of comparing it directly to boxing, whilst ignoring the fact it's a different sport that requires a different approach - due to the risk of takedowns etc your stance has to be different, while 4oz gloves, knees and elbows also necessitate different tactics - you can't stand in the pocket and slip shots, for example, as you'll just get thai-clinched and have your opponent land multiple knees in the head!
Finally, it's also way too easy to forget that MMA is a 'baby' in evolutionary terms - look how long boxing has been around, while with MMA is really only about 15 to 20-years-old. Even within that space of time there's been a huge leap in terms of brawlers like Tank Abbott being left behind and true athletes coming through such as Jon Jones and GSP. Anyone who doesn't appreciate the huge amount of professionalism and technical expertise involved at the highest level are just displaying a huge level of ignorance.
The bottom line is that it's way too early to talk about what the future of MMA will be and most importantly I think the whole MMA taking over boxing thing is increasingly a red herring and the last couple of years have really made me think that the two can co-exist comfortably and potentially even complement one another in terms of encouraging a general love of combat sports.

Great post!

For others to say that the level of striking in MMA is poor is strange to me. Try watching Jon Jones, Jose Aldo, Junior Dos Santos throw punches. And if you want to admire skill level in MMA then watch Anderson Silva V Forrest Griffin on YouTube, it should blow you away.