Who would you say are the top 15? -------

[NYDominican]

Who would you say are the top 15 heavyweight boxers of all time?


The top 5 heavyweight boxers of all time. ------

Why do you think that they should rank at this very top level?


Please explain why.


Thanks.

[SamWise72]

1) Ali - fought the best opposition of anyone in history, and beat everyone up til the very twilight of his career (I don't mean to suggest he beat Frazier in their first match, but he made it 2-1 in the series, and beat Frazier's nemesis into the bargain). Fantastic mobility and could employ an amazing range of tactics.

2) Holmes - such a long reign, such great skills and chin, it's hard to make matchups where a prime Holmes loses. Beat a lot of rising fighters who went on to greater things afterwards. Wonderful jab.

3) Louis - again a long reign, although often without top flight opposition. Great combination puncher.

4) Lewis - I suspect I'm not giving enough credence to the likes of Johnson, but Lewis's combination of sheer size, skills and tactical nous makes him a tough fight for anyone. Doesn't get an argument for a higher rating because of being caught napping by McCall and Rahman.

5) Here I can no longer decide; you can make coherent arguments for Jack Johnson, Ezzard Charles, Jack Dempsey, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson and George Foreman at the very least. (I would think all of these would feature in the top 15, but I don't feel equipped to offer opinions on fighters from the pre film era)

[Controversial]

These lists are so subjective and mine often change from one week to the next. If basing it on purely on achievements, as opposed to who could beat who, then for me its -

Ali
+fought in toughest era, beat them all, great chin and brave
-some gift decisions, not always great to watch, carried on too long

Louis
+great record, many defences of title and great fighter
-fought some poor opponents in title defences, chin a weakness, carried on too long

Holmes
+great record, many defences, great jab and chin
-padded out title reign with inexperienced opponents in title fights, carried on too long

Lewis
+underated by many, beat everyone he fought, knew when to quit boxing
-chin good but not great, sometimes lazy

Marciano
+undefeated, the perpetual underdog who never gave up and on paper should've been beaten, knew when to quit boxing, supremely conditioned
-opponents past their bests, crude and dirty at times

[Datsue]

OP: Just what is it with you & hyphens?--------------------------------------------

[gilgamesh]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Joe Frazier
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Mike Tyson
11. Jack Johnson
12. Sonny Liston
13. Wladimir Klitschko
14. Floyd Patterson
15. Gene Tunney

[SaadOffTheDeck]

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Johnson
8. Lewis
9. Marciano
10. Liston
11. Jeffries
12. Charles
13. Walcott
14. Tyson
15. Dempsey

[yancey]

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Johnson
8. Lewis
9. Marciano
10. Liston
11. Jeffries
12. Charles
13. Walcott
14. Tyson
15. Dempsey

^^^

Move Dempsey up a bit and Marciano back a bit and this would be about right.

[Ezzard]

Here are my tiers.

These gents proved their greatness over and over
--------
Ali
Louis
Johnson
--------
Holmes
Frazier
Holyfield
Lewis
---------
Dempsey
Marciano
Liston
Jeffries
---------
Charles
Walcott
Foreman
Tyson

[SamWise72]

Hard to argue with that, though for me, Holmes is in the top tier.

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman has to be higher than Walcott and Charles. He crushed Frazier and Norton and beat Lyle. Only had two losses in his prime and one was to Ali.

[dempseyfire]

The K brothers should be nowhere near the top 15.

I'm fairly set on the top 10 but after that you could shuffle a few guys here or there and it would be legitimate.

1) Joe Louis

2) Muhammad Ali

3) Jack Johnson

4) Jack Dempsey

5) Larry Holmes

6) George Foreman

7) Joe Frazier

8 ) Rocky Marciano

9) Sonny Liston

10) Jim Jefferies

11) Evander Holyfield

12) Lennox Lewis

13) Ezzard Charles

14) Mike Tyson

15) Jersey Joe Walcott

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He doesn't have to beat them, these rankings aren't a h2h thing. If that's what you're doing than your list is toilet paper.

Vitali isn't a top 30 Heavyweight on credentials. Wlad might barely crack that.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I take head to head into consideration when rating fighters all-time.

Hell, Manuel Charr and Bermane Stiverne would beat a lot of past greats

You're constantly wrong picking fights, we all are. That makes for faulty reasoning.

As for Johnson, I'd love to see how Manuel Charr looked in the 25th round.

[dempseyfire]

The Jack Dempsey that fought in the 20's would get destroyed by Vitali and has a small chance against Wlad early.

Now if we're saying Dempsey is hypothetically born in the 1970 S or 19 eighties then that would become a whole different conversation however of his time he may have been exciting and great fighter but he didn't understand the fundamentals or technicalities in learning how to control distance and how to use angles so really he's more of a fighter that is cherished for what he accomplished in hiis time but to say that he would actually be able to transport from the 19 twenties and fight either brother and beat them is ridiculous

Barry, you really don't know what you're talking about so I would suggest you just stop.

Dempsey's use of angles, footwork, and any other aspect of technical boxing exceeded that of any heavyweight fighting today.

Charr and Stiverne would've lost to Willie Meehan let alone Jack Dempsey. In any other era beyond this atrocious one they would've never made it past undercard status. A 175 lb Gibbons or Loughran would've embarassed either of them.

[Cherrybomb]

I take head to head into consideration when rating fighters all-time.

Hell, Manuel Charr and Bermane Stiverne would beat a lot of past greats

You're constantly wrong picking fights, we all are. That makes for faulty reasoning.

As for Johnson, I'd love to see how Manuel Charr looked in the 25th round.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

And to Saad, I'd be willing to bet that I'm top 5-8 w/% of picks in PTBF since I started

So? You still rack up losses. No need to get so defensive all the time. Unless you're 100%, my point was made.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Acurrent example for me is that I think Golovkin would mutilate Martinez. I'm 100% positive of it, but I can't rate Golovkin over him at Middleweight. He doesn't have the chops. One thing I'll give you is I look at current P4P as more of a H2H scenario, so I can't fault you too much for doing that with all time rankings. I'm just not willing to do it.

[DaveyMac]

I'll tell you I honestly think is top 5 now and isn't on any of these lists, Harry Wills.
In the end he fought everyone who would fight him in his day (Dempsey refused) and beat them. He's like 17-7 or something against Langford, McVea and Jeannette alone.
Terrific fighter.

I think Ali and Louis are in a class of their own, but the head of the second group imho starts with Joe Frazier and Harry Wills.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Acurrent example for me is that I think Golovkin would mutilate Martinez. I'm 100% positive of it, but I can't rate Golovkin over him at Middleweight. He doesn't have the chops. One thing I'll give you is I look at current P4P as more of a H2H scenario, so I can't fault you too much for doing that with all time rankings. I'm just not willing to do it.

I bet Wlad would beat a lot of guys that I'd rank over him. He's good at using his size to spoil and take ouut your energy without even throwing many punches.

At the same time, guys like Witherspoon, Bruno, Mercer, Thomas, McCall could definitely beat him.

I agree, I think Wlad would dominate Jimmy Young but I think Young's resume is clearly superior.