is holmes record any better than lewis?

[bigcheese]

I have larry and lennox in around the 4-5 all time hw spots, some have lewis much lower but is larrys dance card really better? Is a witherspoon or a norton better than old holy or vitali? Shavers better than a tua? I'm not knocking larry I just think lewis gets a lot of undeserved criticism for his record.

[Leonid]

Me thinx vitali was clearly better than inexperienced spoon, old-ish holy > old-ish norton, tua > shavers.

Lennox often gets knocked for his losses, but imo being outboxed by b- and c-raters tells you even more than getting koed by them.
LL occasionally had troubles outboxing such opponents, but all in all he deserved the nod. While larry's fight with spoon could have gone either way, he should have lost to williams, and actually lost to a guy who fought at lhw just 3 months before. Not to mention he had close and tough fights with pretty much all of his opponents who were decent, while there were no trully big stars.

Holmes had more defences than Lewis, but I wouldn't bet on him H2H, so its LL over LH in my rating.

[stevedoc]

Simply yes , taking away the fact Lennox got KO'd twice by average fighters including rahman just before he fought Tyson who did lewis beat ,Ruddock was probably the best and he had been bashed up twice by Tyson before .
For me Holmes is a level above lewis

[dempseyfire]

Me thinx vitali was clearly better than inexperienced spoon, old-ish holy > old-ish norton, tua > shavers.

Lennox often gets knocked for his losses, but imo being outboxed by b- and c-raters tells you even more than getting koed by them.
LL occasionally had troubles outboxing such opponents, but all in all he deserved the nod. While larry's fight with spoon could have gone either way, he should have lost to williams, and actually lost to a guy who fought at lhw just 3 months before. Not to mention he had close and tough fights with pretty much all of his opponents who were decent, while there were no trully big stars.

Holmes had more defences than Lewis, but I wouldn't bet on him H2H, so its LL over LH in my rating.

Are you kidding? The Norton that Holmes beat was definitely better than the Evander Lewis beat, ditto with Shavers and Tua and Witherspoon/Vitali.

Holmes had his share of mediocre challengers but overall his resume surpasses Lennox's, especially since he never got his lights out in his prime like Lewis did by an mediocre challenger (twice)

[Tuan_Jim]

Leonid is one of those spooky European posters where his every opinion is dictated by how it can ennoble the Brothers Klit.

I could have told you he thought Lennox Lewis was the better fighter and would have a whacky spin on Larry Holmes' record before he even wrote it.

[Leonid]

Me thinx vitali was clearly better than inexperienced spoon, old-ish holy > old-ish norton, tua > shavers.

Lennox often gets knocked for his losses, but imo being outboxed by b- and c-raters tells you even more than getting koed by them.
LL occasionally had troubles outboxing such opponents, but all in all he deserved the nod. While larry's fight with spoon could have gone either way, he should have lost to williams, and actually lost to a guy who fought at lhw just 3 months before. Not to mention he had close and tough fights with pretty much all of his opponents who were decent, while there were no trully big stars.

Holmes had more defences than Lewis, but I wouldn't bet on him H2H, so its LL over LH in my rating.

Are you kidding? The Norton that Holmes beat was definitely better than the Evander Lewis beat, ditto with Shavers and Tua and Witherspoon/Vitali.

Holmes had his share of mediocre challengers but overall his resume surpasses Lennox's, especially since he never got his lights out in his prime like Lewis did by an mediocre challenger (twice)

Not sure why you would be that surprised and assured Kenny was definitely better. Imo Holy had better record (to date and overall), age and conditioning/"wear and tear" were comparable, in fact Holy would go on to reclaim the title (arguably twice), while Norton was done thereon.

Also you didn't give any other evidence why Larry's resume was better; "lights out" thing was partly addressed in my original post: I dont think it offsets the upsides of the resume any more than being outboxed by mediocre challengers.

PS. How about Louis being kod by Schmelling (with all due respect hardly bigger puncher than Rahman, smaller in size, with no great skillset)? or Ali hummered into the floor by Cooper in a fight that must have been his first loss (only 3 consecutive breaches of the rules prevented that: Dundee jumping in the ring to guide Ali to the corner, using smelling salts and cutting glove to buy time)?
By your logic that should've affected their standing, elevating guys like Marciano to the #1 spot.

[dempseyfire]

Norton had as much mileage as Holyfield? Schmeling had no great skill-set? I will let your comments speak for themselves . . .

[Tuan_Jim]

I did say he was whacky. He also still believes in the Dundee glove cutting/time buying incident that was proven to be a myth decades ago.

[stevedoc]

I did say he was whacky. He also still believes in the Dundee glove cutting/time buying incident that was proven to be a myth decades ago.

I've had that argument more than once , I think it went over 5 seconds rather than the minute plus most think

[Ezzard]

Not much in it. I'd go with Holmes but it bothers me that Dokes, Thomas and Page are missing...mostly their own faults of course. And Larry legitimising the IBF also sticks in the throat.

Roy Williams
Shavers x2
Norton
Weaver
Berbick
Snipes
Cooney
Witherspoon
Smith
Bey
Mercer

Ruddock
Tucker
Bruno
Morrison
Mercer
McCall
Golota
Holyfield
Tua
Rahman
Klitschko

[Ambling Alp II]

If you just by that list and don't look at very hard, it's fairly close.
However, you have to take a closer look.

Holmes best scalp (Norton) is far better than any of Lewis'.
Holyfield was well past it when Lewis fought him. He doesn't deserve much credit for that.
An ancient Holmes actually did much better against Mercer than a prime Lewis did.

And since this is the real world, we have to look at their losses. Hard to excuse Lewis for losing to Rahman.

Holmes wasn't light years better than Lewis, but he was better.

[Ezzard]

I'm not disagreeing exactly but...

The logic is tricky.

Holyfield was past his best but had a habit of putting in top performances against the odds.

I think Holyfield in that second Lewis fight would match evenly with the version of Norton Holmes beat.

Or put it like this... Many here think Holy beat Lewis in that second fight (it was certainly close) and I'd have backed that Lewis to beat Norton...and not just on styles...

And Holmes probably should have lost to The Truth who Lewis would have scrambled inside of a couple of rounds.

I guess I just think it's a lot closer and wouldn't worry too much about someone arguing in Lewis's favour.

[dempseyfire]

I think Holy could've gotten a close decision vs Lewis in the rematch (it was essentially a drawish fight, hence the records ultimately being OK) but to suggest he was anywhere near the level Norton was at that stage is bonkers. Evander could only throw in a few spurts a round at that point. Just look at his gift decision vs John frikkin' Ruiz in his fight after the Lewis rematch; clearly inferior fighter to his 1991 peak.

[Ezzard]

Agree. But so was Norton. The 73 version of Norton who beat Ali could have beaten Holmes.

Norton post Holmes never really out in another meaningful performance. Not unlike Holyfield.

[bigcheese]

If Larry is to get credit for the Mercer win, which is a good win in his 40s, should the tyson loss not also count against him?

[Othro]

The question I feel that need to be answered the most is , " Was Shavers better than Tua?"


Yes by a million miles .

[Ambling Alp II]

If Larry is to get credit for the Mercer win, which is a good win in his 40s, should the tyson loss not also count against him?

No. When you are that far past your prime, you should get credit for a win and no criticism for the any losses.

[Ambling Alp II]

Agree. But so was Norton. The 73 version of Norton who beat Ali could have beaten Holmes.

Norton post Holmes never really out in another meaningful performance. Not unlike Holyfield.

It is true that Norton was never the same after the Holmes lost. That was his last great fight. You have to have your last great fight sometime.
However, he had looked good in his prior fights leading up to it. Nobody was saying Norton was past it going into the fight.

Holyfield was clearly past it going into the Lewis fights. He looked lethargic in his previous fight against Vaugh Bean. He was several years past his best by then.

Watch the Norton-Holmes fight. Then watch the 2nd Lewis-Holyfield. No comparison at all. Both Norton and Holmes looked much, much better than Lewis and Holyfield.

[Nile4000]

I think Larry's record is better than Lennox's but like Ezzard said, it does bother me also that Dokes, Thomas, and Page are missing, though Larry really ducked Greg.

[Ambling Alp II]

I'm not that bothered by it. Holmes did beat Weaver, Witherspoon, Snipes etc. Dokes, Thomas, and Page didn't set themselves apart from those guys. Yes, Holmes did start fight some tomato cans, but I guess I can live with it.

I am more bothered that Lewis didn't fight Holyfield and Tyson earlier, and that he didn't fight Bowe at all.
Not blaming Lewis at all; I don't think he ducked them at all and was willing to fight any of them. (Hope we don't go off on a Bowe garbage can tangent here.)

[Ilya Muromets]

I did say he was whacky. He also still believes in the Dundee glove cutting/time buying incident that was proven to be a myth decades ago.

Yo, Duce troll, you useless psychotic bs artist - aside from millions of people seeing it happen, Angelo Dundee even bragged about it!

[Ilya Muromets]

I did say he was whacky. He also still believes in the Dundee glove cutting/time buying incident that was proven to be a myth decades ago.

I've had that argument more than once , I think it went over 5 seconds rather than the minute plus most think

Five seconds my foot. Do you f'ng think it takes "5 seconds" to cut open a glove, and then send someone out to hunt up a new glove, and bring that glove back, and then put on that new glove and fix it on, and get the ref to check it, and finally resume the fight? I saw that fight on ESPN Classic, and they maliciously and deceptively spliced the tape, and broadcast the fight without a single mention or indication that the slightest thing unusual occurred between rounds!!!

[evrenb]

I did say he was whacky. He also still believes in the Dundee glove cutting/time buying incident that was proven to be a myth decades ago.

I've had that argument more than once , I think it went over 5 seconds rather than the minute plus most think

Five seconds my foot. Do you f'ng think it takes "5 seconds" to cut open a glove, and then send someone out to hunt up a new glove, and bring that glove back, and then put on that new glove and fix it on, and get the ref to check it, and finally resume the fight? I saw that fight on ESPN Classic, and they maliciously and deceptively spliced the tape, and broadcast the fight without a single !entioen or indication that the slightest thing unusual occurred between rounds!!!

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ilya Muromets]

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah right, "yawn". This fruit here is the one that was going on about "homophobes". What a collection.

[evrenb]

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah right, "yawn". This fruit here is the one that was going on about "homophobes". What a collection.

I am actually reporting your homophobic post of a couple of days ago to a moderator. FYI I am not a homosexual. I do abhor racism and homophobia as there is enough hate in this world and people should be able to feel what they feel as long as they act within the law. If you have those feelings then fine, keep them to yourself and we would be none the wiser. Nonetheless you will be reported, but , don't worry you can use one of your other various guises, aliases etc. .