How good was James Toney at middleweight

[Datsue]

Okay, so when Toney was badly cut against Tim Littles & within minutes of the ref's inspection & the doctor's threat to stop the fight due to the blood obscuring his face, & then he turned around & levelled Littles, that was that a "lucky punch" as well?

Amazing he managed to produce two such lucky finishes, with--off the top of my head--the same Goddamn punch, a big left hook!

Amazing, but still luck bro. Toney had no better a chance at landing those shots and KOing those guys than you would have. LOL

Yeah, I actually went & looked it up, the punch that starts Littles' legs going after the doctor's inspection is a big left hook, then James kinda follows him around whacking him with right hands until he collapses. The bell rings, after the minute's rest he comes out, nails him with another left hook, then keeps hitting him with rights until he goes.

Such a long string of fortuitous happenstance.

[Datsue]

^^ The point is in any case fvcking moot, which is why I edited my post, chuck mate.

We're arguing the fvcking toss about a fella ranked as the best fvcking middleweight in the world at the time, in a division with Julian fuckin' Jackson, Reggie Johnson, Mclellan coming up, Kalambay still a force, Herol Graham still around, Nigel Benn, & who fought all-time great middleweight Mike McCallum to a standstill in a unification fight scored a draw that the popular press consensus made Toney a winner in, & this fvcking persnickety tossbag insists on harping on about...

I don't know. What exactly is his point? That a 23 year old Toney in his first big fight had to come from behind to level an unbeaten southpaw with massive height & reach advantages, rated pound-for-pound as a superstar & fighting in his home town in front of a massive partisan crowd?

& cos he knocks this motherfucker out, he's... A mediocre middleweight? Which is obviously why Manny Pac was a mediocre super-bantam 'cos he could only manage a technical draw with Agapito Sanchez. No matter what happened after that that might cast such events in a different light, Pac could only manage a draw with Sanchez so was a mediocre fighter & I'd pick, say, Tracy Harris Patterson over him 'cos he couldn't beat Sanchez.

Seriously, why does anyone ever bother talking to Rover?

[chucktaylor]

^^ The point is in any case fvcking moot, which is why I edited my post, chuck mate.

We're arguing the fvcking toss about a fella ranked as the best fvcking middleweight in the world at the time, in a division with Julian fuckin' Jackson, Reggie Johnson, Mclellan coming up, Kalambay still a force, Herol Graham still around, Nigel Benn, & who fought all-time great middleweight Mike McCallum to a standstill in a unification fight scored a draw that the popular press consensus made Toney a winner in, & this fvcking persnickety tossbag insists on harping on about...

I don't know. What exactly is his point? That a 23 year old Toney in his first big fight had to come from behind to level an unbeaten southpaw with massive height & reach advantages, rated pound-for-pound as a superstar & fighting in his home town in front of a massive partisan crowd?

& cos he knocks this motherfucker out, he's... A mediocre middleweight?

Seriously, why does anyone ever bother talking to Rover?

You're saying what I've been thinking for a while. Rover really liked rules, though. That's the only thing that's stopped me from dropping this accusation. How could he justify, in his own mind, making a new account after being banned?

[littlepug]

Wasn't a lucky punch, the fight was similar in some ways to Chávez v Taylor in that Nunn was ahead on points due to his better boxing but like Chávez Toney was judging the distance better as the fight wore on and in the last few rounds was getting to Nunn with counters, like all top boxers Toney didn't panic and start losing heart when he found himself falling behind and instead stuck to the task and the finishing punch was a perfectly timed shot catching a tiring Nunn with hands down and his chin high.

[Datsue]

Wasn't a lucky punch, the fight was similar in some ways to Chávez v Taylor in that Nunn was ahead on points due to his better boxing but like Chávez Toney was judging the distance better as the fight wore on and in the last few rounds was getting to Nunn with counters, like all top boxers Toney didn't panic and start losing heart when he found himself falling behind and instead stuck to the task and the finishing punch was a perfectly timed shot catching a tiring Nunn with hands down and his chin high.

Yeah mate but that's reality & my issue with Rover is tha--

Okay, one of my issues with Rover is that he is quite willing to discount reality just so he can continue to bolster his argument no matter how addlepated; he'll even do this, like he has here, just to score intellectual wanking points. No matter that Toney was obviously getting to Nunn & making him tired over the last couple of rounds, no matter what Toney displayed to get to Nunn in the first place & then to take him out, it's got to be discounted 'cos he's already run his pompous flag up the flag pole & nailed his colours to the mast declaiming to all & sundry that Toney was a mediocre middleweight...

For instance in this thread, in order to justify the stupid statement "Toney was a mediocre middleweight" he's had to claim that the shot vs Nunn was a lucky punch, that furthermore because James didn't possess one-punch power (Prince Charles Williams is calling, he'd quite like to see the final bell please?) it must've been a lucky punch. A stupidly stupid point that you could almost say was dreamt up deliberately to provoke people to respond to the obvious holes in such an argument & therefore bait them into further endless circuitous circle-jerking.

& when as now he's talked himself in circles, which makes him look a tit (okay, a bigger tit) & it all seems to be just 'cos he can't say "Fvck you know I hadn't thought of that" or "Christ, that's a new way of looking at it" or even "Yes, you're right, I was wrong". Toney's counters & bodyshots in the Nunn fight? The work of a mediocre middleweight. Levelling a guy who was being built up for P4P status with one shot? The acme of mediocrity.

& as his new persona's Modus Operandi is that he professes a wide-eyed ingenue-esque disbelief that boxing fans like to ignore obvious facts whilst he is some sort of bastion of cool, sober, even-handed reflection, well...

It just makes me think he's an insufferable pudendum, quite apart from the obvious mental health issues.

[Counter-puncher]

Beautifully put, bruv.

[crusader]

That's fergy for you. He loves to pat his own back, seems to have trouble engaging in honest debate (which is why I rarely engage him anymore), and instead tends to distort others' arguments and blatantly ignore anything that obviously hurts his position, doing so in a manner that makes me think that he's looking to wind people up.

Reminds me a bit of Fat Git (but worse than FG) actually.

[tiny_acres]

Wait a minute! You guys are trying to say I’ve made claims that I clearly haven’t!

• I never said that Toney was lucky against Tim Littles!
• I never said that James Toney was a mediocre middleweight!

Here are my thoughts:
• I’m not alone in thinking that James Toney was fortunate to score a one-punch KO over Michael Nunn when he was a country mile behind on the scorecards.
• Many people believe that Reggie Johnson defeated James Toney when they fought in an evenly-contested fight that could have gone either way.
• Mike McCallum deserved to defeat James Toney in their second fight… and the post-fight reactions clearly illustrate the fighters own perceptions prior to the reading out of the official scorecards!
• James Toney admitted that he should have lost his fight against Dave Tiberi.
• Gennady Golovkin (at this point in time) should not be considered as one of the all-time-great 160lb-ers like Marvin Hagler & Thomas Hearns!
• James Toney was a great fighter!
• I am not Rover and I don't know who he is!

What is so controversial and unacceptable about those points? Those are facts!

I was at the Nunn-Toney fight.
I never considered it a lucky punch.Toney was landing more punches as the fight went on.
I was there cheering on Nunn who I thought was the best fighter in the world at the time.
When all was said and done I cheered on Toney knocking him out.
Very good fight.
And to this day I still consider this by far Toney's biggest win.

[Chepppaaa]

looking back at it, toney realy should have stayed at middleweight. why? cause of everything. it arguably might be his best weight, were he looked the sharpest. also, hopkins was coming up and those 2 would have made a tremendous fight, prime toney vs prime hopkins, now thats something. also financielly with trinidad and oscar coming up, toney would have made much more money. and guys, please dont tell me, that he couldve not made the weight. toney was 5′ 10″ guy, in comparison to pavlik or hopkins who are around 6'1-6'2! had james spent as much time in the gym, as he did at BK and wendys than believe me he would been able to stay at middleweight for a long time[/quote]

Top mids like GGG? Gtfoh[/quote]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
the difference between ggg and clottey before clottey started losingis imens

i, not like, i am an expert and i see talent even without talent meeting big name fighters and believe me ggg is up there with the best, already. if somebody like taylor or barkley could pose problem to legends like hopkins or hearns, than sure as hell could someone like ggg do.
just because he didnt beat no names doesnt mean he is a great boxer[/quote]
It doesn't mean he isn't but it doesn't mean he is either. No ones putting Anthony Joshua's name up there with Muhammad Ali. A lot of fighters look the part until it's time to prove it[/quote]

[Chepppaaa]

What does that mess of a post supposed to read as? I have no idea if you're quoting other people's posts or responding to them!

look, when a post becomes ot long, or there are to many quotes into it, than i have to cut it smaller

[Chepppaaa]

i think that ggg is better than hagler and that ikorev is a moron, now what? are you both gonne attack me now, or didnt you understood the wit bettor?

[Chepppaaa]

i think that ggg is better than hagler and that ikorev is a moron, now what? are you both gonne attack me now, or didnt you understood the wit bettor?

ikorolev isn't a moron, but he's very careless at times...and GGG is unproven, so it's pointless comparing him to Hagler.

I like your enthusiasm Chepppaaa, but I don't think you know as much about the sport from yesteryear as you think you do.

i had a long arguemant with ikor, about ggg, even so i was saying that i liked ggg, he still was not letting go and getting on my nervs, he acted like ggg was the next prime jones jr haha.....ikorev is realy the new brut, when it comes down to being addicted to one boxer....

[ikorolev]

i think that ggg is better than hagler and that ikorev is a moron, now what? are you both gonne attack me now, or didnt you understood the wit bettor?

If it pleases you, I will: Chepppaaa is an imbecile and the way he cuts posts proves it.

[hurricanemitch14]

So ggg is better than bhop, toney and marvin fuckin hagler.......i truly dont know how the fornicate u guys dont get banned. This is trolling at its finest.

[Chepppaaa]

here is he hahahahaha

brut-mayweatehr
ikorev-golovkin

[Chepppaaa]

So ggg is better than bhop, toney and marvin fuckin hagler.......i truly dont know how the eff u guys dont get banned. This is trolling at its finest.

you doing exactly what some idiots here are always doing, put words into peoples mouth they didnt said.

somebody says hagler would have a tough time with ggg and what do you say "ggg is better than x, hagler and toney"

[hurricanemitch14]

Im adding all the post from this and the bhop posts last week.

His win over second to Nunn says enough. Nunn was an amazing fighter, people forget his biggest down fall was drugs.

[Tanzio]

James Toney wasn't around long enough at MW to be rated great, although he stopped the person I felt was on the verge of being #1 P4P. I agree with those who claim that Lights Out was attempting to break Nunn down, but James was woefully short on time. While the KO was not a shot in the dark lucky punch, Toney was fortunate that he landed it perfectly in the 11th hour, the way that JMM was fortunate that Pac decided to leap into the right hand that the Mexican had been plotting for years at the bell.

Both shots were felt around the world, and left no doubts.

[Chepppaaa]

James Toney wasn't around long enough at MW to be rated great, although he stopped the person I felt was on the verge of being #1 P4P. I agree with those who claim that Lights Out was attempting to break Nunn down, but James was woefully short on time. While the KO was not a shot in the dark lucky punch, Toney was fortunate that he landed it perfectly in the 11th hour, the way that JMM was fortunate that Pac decided to leap into the right hand that the Mexican had been plotting for years at the bell.

Both shots were felt around the world, and left no doubts.

and i am not talking about record, before anybody gets on my nervs with that shi%&t, but in terms of ability/skill?

[hoagylt]

To the guy who said Toney was merely good-B/S. James Toney is one of the most skilled boxers I have ever seen.He can stay in the pocket ,yet avoid most shots.He blocks with his shoulders,elbows and rolls punches like very few ever.His boxing I.Q. is genius.And there was no luck against Nunn,I was watching skill.

[dempseyfire]

Fergus- you calling toneys ko of nunn a lucky punch reminds me more than ever that you simply don't understand a lot of what you see in the ring.

don't worry you're far from being alone there, Nunn-Toney is a widely-misunderstood fight.

Are you saying that James Toney made a premeditated decision to lose round-after-round, because his entire strategy was reliant on catching Michael Nunn with a one-off wonder punch? :??

Toney was not getting dominated at all. The rounds were competitive and Toney broke Nunn down with counter-punching and body work. Yes Nunn was ahead but the knockout was far from luck.

[Chepppaaa]

stop trying to convince tthe dude that it wasnt no lucky punch. if i learned one thing from this forum, with as example people like brut or ikorev, is that often i have the feeling talking to bullheaded children, who will never be convinced, even if it is 100 % obvious that they are wrong.

i have no problem saying "yeah i was wrong with this one", i can be convinced, sometimes yes, sometimes no, when i have a feeling that isnt simply the truth. but so many poeple out here cant be convinced, just waist of time having a conversation with those guys and than often those stupid guys think they are so smart, even while being so wrong, not even funny the amount of absurdity.

[ikorolev]

stop trying to convince tthe dude that it wasnt no lucky punch. if i learned one thing from this forum, with as example people like brut or ikorev, is that often i have the feeling talking to bullheaded children, who will never be convinced, even if it is 100 % obvious that they are wrong.

i have no problem saying "yeah i was wrong with this one", i can be convinced, sometimes yes, sometimes no, when i have a feeling that isnt simply the truth. but so many poeple out here cant be convinced, just waist of time having a conversation with those guys and than often those stupid guys think they are so smart, even while being so wrong, not even funny the amount of absurdity.

Right, I don't remember Chepppaaa-hole ever saying "yeah i was wrong with this one".

[Chepppaaa]

stop trying to convince tthe dude that it wasnt no lucky punch. if i learned one thing from this forum, with as example people like brut or ikorev, is that often i have the feeling talking to bullheaded children, who will never be convinced, even if it is 100 % obvious that they are wrong.

i have no problem saying "yeah i was wrong with this one", i can be convinced, sometimes yes, sometimes no, when i have a feeling that isnt simply the truth. but so many poeple out here cant be convinced, just waist of time having a conversation with those guys and than often those stupid guys think they are so smart, even while being so wrong, not even funny the amount of absurdity.

Right, I don't remember Chepppaaa-hole ever saying "yeah i was wrong with this one".

i said it often enough, yesterday for example somebody made a thread about darnell broone being the best journeyman in boxing and i was downplaying broone by answering "who", like i didnt knew broone, basicly, that broone was a bad journeyman. but than the other told me what broone achieved as a journeyman and i pretty much admitted that i was wrong and that broone wasnt that bad as i thought and answered, that broone might be one or if not the best journeyman. one, of many examples.

[ikorolev]

i said it often enough, yesterday for example somebody made a thread about darnell broone being the best journeyman in boxing and i was downplaying broone by answering "who", like i didnt knew broone, basicly, that broone was a bad journeyman. but than the other told me what broone achieved as a journeyman and i pretty much admitted that i was wrong and that broone wasnt that bad as i thought and answered, that broone might be one or if not the best journeyman. one, of many examples.

You just accepted your INCOMPETENCE which you underscored again by misspelling BOONE multiple times. Give me an example where you changed your OPINION.