Ali's controversial decisions

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 21 Aug 2002, 15:31

The Shavers fight is actually the only one I've ever seen of that list (I've read that all of them, except for the Jones fight, are pretty boring).

As for the Shavers fight, I've watched it several times and I scored it a draw. Remember, that fight was scored live on NBC, so Dundee knew as it was going on what the score was. Perhaps Ali would have fought differently in certain rounds had he not known the score. The 15th round is very important; I scored it even, but Shavers was the one who was hurt badly at the end (and seemed close to being knocked out) so you COULD score it for Ali. Shavers was the better fighter that night, but he gave away too many rounds because he was concerned about his endurance.

I know that's more long-winded that you wanted it. Was it a bad decision? I'd say "no."

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 21 Aug 2002, 16:14

1. ?
2. yes
3. ?
4. no
5. no
6. yes Young was robbed Big-Time

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 22 Aug 2002, 01:27

1.yes
2.yes
3.yes
4.no
5.no
6.yes

Admittedly all were close, except for Jimmy Young, who was on a good run at that time and made Ali look foolish and won big.

wsbuf · Post by **wsbuf** » 22 Aug 2002, 12:57

Norton II and Young fights were bad decisions.

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 16 Mar 2003, 18:05

Keyser Soze wrote:1) vs. Doug Jones

Having now watched the Jones fight, I can say that Ali deserved the win. The crowd was EXTREMELY biased and roared every time Jones landed anything, which is probably a part of why people consider it a controversial decision. Jones just wasn't active enough and never hurt Ali.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 16 Mar 2003, 19:20

terap wrote:Ali's REAL record
Was TKO'ed in 4 (5) by Henry Cooper.

(So he lost 2 fights in a row)

erm, what do you base this on? was there a long count?

the added time between rounds is actually a myth.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 16 Mar 2003, 22:21

I may be slow but I am beginning to think that Terap is a bit biased against Ali and does not quite look at everything in a completely objective manner when it comes to him.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 17 Mar 2003, 02:18

There you go, tomato puss...jumping at conclusions again. Shouldn't you wait for ANOTHER fifty or more comments by terap re; ali before you arrive at such an assesment?

Dickhead · Post by **Dickhead** » 17 Mar 2003, 05:12

Ali had a lot of close calls. The ones I really have a problem with are the second & third Norton fights, the Young fight for sure and the Foreman fight. Foreman should have been allowed to continue, he was up at the count of 10 and was not hurt, only tired. That was pure crap. That was the luckiest night of Ali's career.

Some other close calls include the Cooper fight, 'Enery was fcuked on that one for sure. Lyle was winning until a controversial stoppage in Ali's favor. Fortunate for Ali that Fraziers eyes swelled up badly in the Thrilla, or he would have lost that one too. Doug Jones could have won that fight, it could have gone either way. Add these examples to the ones in the first paragraph and we see Ali had more than his share of close calls. Funny how he always came out on the winning end.

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 17 Mar 2003, 12:48

Dickhead wrote:Ali had a lot of close calls. The ones I really have a problem with are the second & third Norton fights, the Young fight for sure and the Foreman fight. Foreman should have been allowed to continue, he was up at the count of 10 and was not hurt, only tired. That was pure crap. That was the luckiest night of Ali's career.

Some other close calls include the Cooper fight, 'Enery was fcuked on that one for sure. Lyle was winning until a controversial stoppage in Ali's favor. Fortunate for Ali that Fraziers eyes swelled up badly in the Thrilla, or he would have lost that one too. Doug Jones could have won that fight, it could have gone either way. Add these examples to the ones in the first paragraph and we see Ali had more than his share of close calls. Funny how he always came out on the winning end.

Foreman had nothing left. There's no way he could have kept going for the 7 rounds (approx.) that were left in the fight. And Ali was pretty fresh, as we saw in the post-fight press conference.

You are the first person that I have heard refer to the Lyle stoppage as "controversial." Ali caught Lyle and then threw about 50 unanswered punches. With all due respect, have you seen that fight? Ali was able to land like 20 punches with Lyle against the ropes, pause to ask the ref to stop it and then resume pummeling him. They weren't huge punches, but Lyle was hurt and was not throwing punches nor defending himself. The ref had to stop it.

With all that said, it was perhaps the most miraculous comeback of Ali's career, and should probably be discussed more.

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 22 Mar 2003, 19:06

I just watched Ali Norton 2 and 3, and scored them both draws. I'm surprised that so many people consider Norton to have won by a wider margin in the third fight, they were both extremely close fights. The only real difference is that the second fight was an action fight and the third was terribly dull.

In the third fight, Norton could have won if he had just put more pressure on Ali. It reminded me of the Shavers fight (which I also scored a draw). Norton just didn't keep enough pressure on and let Ali steal too many rounds.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 23 Mar 2003, 09:29

EARNIE SHAVERS: fair decision, what the hell is the problem??

RON LYLE: lyle invited disaster by laying ont he ropes exhausted and allowing ali to punch away. the ref gave lyle every opportunity. you knoew the rules of boxing so stop being so biased, this is the way it goes. lyle wouldnt fight back.

HENRY COOPER: total bullshit. the "added time" is a known myth down here in england. watcht the real time version of the fight, the time between rounds is like 1 min 3 secs.

JOE FRAZIER 3: pulling at straws. dead even fight, joe stopped rather than die.

KEN NORTON: close for sure.

JIMMY YOUNG: hmmmmm jimmy did literally run and hang out of the ring rather than get hit. what was that ole cliche about TAKING THE TITLE from the champ???

just some thoughts, doug jones, very bad night, but ali wasnt the finished article so relax.

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 23 Mar 2003, 15:00

terap wrote:" RON LYLE: lyle invited disaster by laying on t he ropes exhausted and allowing ali to punch away. the ref gave lyle every opportunity. you knoew the rules of boxing so stop being so biased, this is the way it goes. lyle wouldnt fight back. "
_____________________________________________________________

SORRY PAL.

YOU PUT YOUR FOOT IN IT HERE.

Ali spent the first TEN rounds of the fight DOING THAT VERY THING.

HE LAY BACK ON THE ROPES ON THREW NO RETURN PUNCHES.

WHERE WAS THE SAME REFEREE WHEN ALI DID THAT?

The Ali shills are pathetic in their attempts to "explain" and justify their hero's shortcomings.

They have SO MUCH to try to explain.

It is a fulltime job for them as they work to prop up their hero and his disgustingly overblown PR.
.

It's a very different situation. Ali went to the ropes completely unhurt and defended himself. Lyle was CLEARLY hurt early in the round and went into the ropes out of desperation. Seriously, how many unanswered shots did Ali have to land?

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 23 Mar 2003, 15:07

::EARNIE SHAVERS: Ali's record could read loss by decision to Shavers.::

Ali was pretty much shot at this point, as he was in the third Norton fight. Shavers himself says that he didn't deserve to win the fight.

::RON LYLE: A competent referee would have taken away the first round from Ali for blatant fouling.
A competent referee would have told Ali to stop his resting on the ropes and throwing no return punches or he would be penalized.
Competent officials would have scored the first ten rounds for Lyle, since Ali threw no punches and rested on the ropes.
(As it was, the stooge officials HAD ALI AHEAD in their scoring!!!!!!!)
With Lyle so far ahead on points, no competent referee would have stopped the fight in the 11th as the stooge did.::

Wow, I didn't know that Ali was ahead on the cards. Lyle was clearly winning the fight. He still got KO'd though.

::HENRY COOPER: Cooper TKO'd Ali in five rounds.

Ali was not in condition to answer the bell for round five after the LEGITIMATE one minute rest.::

Ah, but Lyle was in fine shape when he was getting spanked on the ropes by Ali?

::JOE FRAZIER 3: Instead of stooge referee Tony Perez giving Ali 119 warnings for pulling Frazier's head down----without ever taking away a single point from Ali and thus allowing Ali to stall and rest through the whole fight (in legitimate boxing any competent referee takes away a point by the third warning for the same infraction)

A COMPETENT REFEREE would have taken a point away from Ali by the third warning for that and Ali would have had two choices:

Either STOP doing that be forced to fight and use up his less than good store of endurance long before the close

Or lose every round by many points as he had so many points taken away from him.

That fight is sold a significant by the Ali shills in a desperate attempt to direct attention away from the beating Ali took from Frazier in their first fight, where both went into the ring as undefeated fighters::

The thing I remember about the ref in that fight is that he worked very hard to constantly break up the clinches and slap Ali's hand away from holding. He kept the fight at a constant blistering pace, which Frazier would eventually succumb to.

You don't have to "sell" Ali-Frazier 3 as significant. It was the rubber match of the greatest rivalry in heavyweight history.

misternuts · Post by **misternuts** » 25 Mar 2003, 21:23

JONES: Ali about 7-3
NORTON II: Ali 7-4-1
NORTON III: Close fight, probably Norton's
FRAZIER II: 8-4 Ali

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 25 Mar 2003, 21:32

Dickhead wrote:Fortunate for Ali that Fraziers eyes swelled up badly in the Thrilla, or he would have lost that one too.

By that time, Frazier had a cataract in one eye which impaired his vision, and probably shouldn't even have been allowed to fight. That's what cost him that fight IMO.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 26 Mar 2003, 06:35

terap wrote:" RON LYLE: lyle invited disaster by laying on t he ropes exhausted and allowing ali to punch away. the ref gave lyle every opportunity. you knoew the rules of boxing so stop being so biased, this is the way it goes. lyle wouldnt fight back. "
_____________________________________________________________

SORRY PAL.

YOU PUT YOUR FOOT IN IT HERE.

Ali spent the first TEN rounds of the fight DOING THAT VERY THING.

HE LAY BACK ON THE ROPES ON THREW NO RETURN PUNCHES.

WHERE WAS THE SAME REFEREE WHEN ALI DID THAT?

The Ali shills are pathetic in their attempts to "explain" and justify their hero's shortcomings.

They have SO MUCH to try to explain.

It is a fulltime job for them as they work to prop up their hero and his disgustingly overblown PR.
.

ali wasn't hurt like lyle.

calling me an 'ali shill' just becuase i disagree with you, pathetic.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 26 Mar 2003, 13:10

Overhand...pay him no mind.Terap thinks if you CHEER for a fighter you're on the take and probably connected to the mob.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 26 Mar 2003, 13:57

tomato can wrote:I may be slow but I am beginning to think that Terap is a bit biased against Ali and does not quite look at everything in a completely objective manner when it comes to him.

Jaclem....Is it 50 yet?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 26 Mar 2003, 15:13

I think he gives Ali credit for two majority draws, but claims Angelo Dundee was one of the judeges in disguise.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 28 Mar 2003, 03:45

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 28 Mar 2003, 05:49

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 28 Mar 2003, 12:58

::In his 24 title fights,

Ali was KO'd once (Holmes),

lost two decisions (to Joe Frazier and to novice Leon Spinks),::

Against Spinks and Holmes, Ali was woefully, horribly shot. Using those fights in an argument about his all-time status is like using Louis' fight against Marciano or Ray Leonard's fight against Terry Norris.

Ali may have been TKO'd (it was a TKO, terap) against Holmes, but he never got K'dTFO like Louis did.

::and won decisions in 8 (Chuvalo, Terrell, Bugner, Young ???, Norton ???, Evangalista, Shavers???, novice Spinks) out of 24 total title fights.::

Louis was a power puncher, Ali was a boxer. Of course Louis has a better KO ratio.

::That of course included VERY QUESTIONABLE decisions over Jimmy Young, Ernie Shavers, Norton.::

He was pretty much a shot fighter against Young and Shavers too. Have you noticed that you keep criticizing him over his fights in which he was a shadow of his former self?

::Ali also never gave Doug Jones a return fight.::

Ahh, yes, Ali ducking good comp. 'Cause Frazier (3 times), Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Young, Cooper (2 times), Norton (3 times) and Jones were all easy comp.

Ali's controversial decisions

Re: Ali's controversial decisions