52 fight challenge: Week 7 - Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar I

[Horse]

Howard Winstone vs Vicente Saldivar I:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a14dNCweTg

Watch and discuss.

[Horse]

Recent weeks' fights:

Week 6 - Chris Finnegan vs Bob Foster: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=197962

Week 5 - John H. Stracey vs Jose Napoles: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=197741
Week 4 - Jim Watt vs Alexis Arguello: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=197596
Week 3 - Lloyd Honeyghan vs Donald Curry: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=197431
Week 2 - Chris Eubank vs Michael Watson I: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=197276
Week 1 - Joe Calzaghe vs Robin Reid: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=197126


British & Irish boxing 52 fight history knowledge challenge thread: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=197079

[Counter-puncher]

Really good choice in my opinion, horse.

A great style match, you can see from how consistent and insistent Winstones jab was, even against a southpaw, how effective he would be against an orthodox fighter. So unlucky for his career to coincide with a southpaw as great as saldivar. I genuinely believe against an orthodox fighter of saldivars ability, winstone would have won at least one out of three. They really weren't kidding back in the day when they raved about winstones left hand.

Early doors but I have it even after 2

[Counter-puncher]

Winstone really was a terrific boxer. I've seen quite a lot of saldivar, I love his style, I've never seen anyone make him miss as often as winstone did, he was generally a very controlled and efficient offensive machine and winstone makes him look a little clumsy at times

Ah damn the coverage jumped to round five

[Horse]

Ah damn the coverage jumped to round five

I was worried that might happen.

There's probably going to be a fair bit of trouble with getting full footage of the older fights.

[Counter-puncher]

As for saldivar, he really could do pretty much everything. Whilst carpenter talks him up as this aggressive sawnoff Mexican Marciano type, he actually does a lot of his best work drawing shots and slip-countering.

Head to head there aren't many featherweights id back against him. Id take him over Barrera Morales or Marquez for a start.

[Counter-puncher]

Ah damn the coverage jumped to round five

I was worried that might happen.

There's probably going to be a fair bit of trouble with getting full footage of the older fights.

No problem. You will have introduced some people to two great fighters they may never have seen before. (rudkin McGowan looked to have at least 45mins from memory so its fullish footage) for opening discussion about old fighters I think the thread is worth it even if there isn't a full fight. 48mins my guess is they only chopped rds.3and 4, 13 rounds is enough to get a decent idea of how the fight went

[Counter-puncher]

I don't know exactly how he does it but saldivar definitely showed the knack of taking the jab away from winstone in the middle rounds. I think possibly with the outside slips and counter left hands to the body, as a significant part of it.

[davie]

I remember being in Merthyr Tydfil, we were down for a Scotland vs Wales football match in Cardiff.
I was in a boozer in Merthyr and they had a commemorative picture of Howard on the wall with a little story about him.
Interesting to now be sitting watching his old fights

As for Saldivar, does anyone know why he retired after his second fight with Winstone? He was only 24 at the time.

[davie]

I wont bother putting round numbers in, as we don't know which round is which. I'll just list them in order they apear in the video.

10-9 Winstone - nice use of the jab to control the opening round
10-9 Winstone - more good jabbing and in & out footwork to make Saldivar miss. Saldivar has a couple of succesful flurries in the middle of the round
10-9 Saldivar - Some wild but effective punching from Saldivar, looks a dangerous fighter now
10-9 Salvidar - Working well with combinations, going from head to body to make openings and not minding missing one or two to land some punches.
10-9 Winstone - great round of boxing, had a bit of everything, good stuff from both men, Winstone controlled it better, great evasive work at times
10-9 Salvidar - A round of 2 halves, Winstone timed a couple of nice right hands early but Saldivar just too busy in the second half. Another good round
10-9 Salvidar - Great round for Salvidar, never gave Winstone a seconds peace and countered his jab excellently (as Counter-puncher mentioned)


Think the order of the rounds so far have been - 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9,10,

Cracking fight so far - To be continued....

[davie]

I wont bother putting round numbers in, as we don't know which round is which. I'll just list them in order they apear in the video.

10-9 Winstone - nice use of the jab to control the opening round
10-9 Winstone - more good jabbing and in & out footwork to make Saldivar miss. Saldivar has a couple of succesful flurries in the middle of the round
10-9 Saldivar - Some wild but effective punching from Saldivar, looks a dangerous fighter now
10-9 Salvidar - Working well with combinations, going from head to body to make openings and not minding missing one or two to land some punches.
10-9 Winstone - great round of boxing, had a bit of everything, good stuff from both men, Winstone controlled it better, great evasive work at times
10-9 Salvidar - A round of 2 halves, Winstone timed a couple of nice right hands early but Saldivar just too busy in the second half. Another good round
10-9 Salvidar - Great round for Salvidar, never gave Winstone a seconds peace and countered his jab excellently (as Counter-puncher mentioned)


Think the order of the rounds so far have been - 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9,10,

Cracking fight so far - To be continued....

10-9 Saldivar - Winstone rallied a little in the middle, but great work throughout by saldivar, timing Winstones jab & landing the left regularly/heavily
10-9 Saldivar - Becoming a little one sided. Unless Saldivar tires I can't see Winstone getting back into this
10-9 Saldivar - Really good round, closer than the last and both men clearly tiring.
10-8 Saldivar - A 10-8 round for me, Winstone did well to stay on his feet and Saldivar just keeps on coming, Not so technical from the Mexican now.
10-9 Saldivar - Closer round, last round kitchen sink stuff. Winstone threw everything he had left and Saldivar threw more still. Not sure if it was Winstones heart or Saldivars tired arms, but not sure how Winstone got through those last few rounds

One of the best fights I've watched in some time. A mixture of nice boxing in the early-middle rounds and huge heart in the late rounds from the Welshman but Sladivar was immense, as Counter-puncher said earlier, he was given credit for his ferocity (which he showed in abundance) but there was plenty of talent and boxing skill on display there as well.

[davie]

I don't know exactly how he does it but saldivar definitely showed the knack of taking the jab away from winstone in the middle rounds. I think possibly with the outside slips and counter left hands to the body, as a significant part of it.

After reading this, I paid particular attention to this aspect of the fight and can confirm he did almost everything imaginable to negate Winstones best weapon.

He started to time it so well, sometimes beating him to the jab and knocking him off balance before launching another assault, sometimes slipping outside the jab and throwing his own left straight down the middle, he went from body to head and went under the jab at times, he dropped back, just out of range of it and sprung in with 2 or 3 punches of his own and sometimes he just came straight through it in the later rounds when the sting had come out of it.
A fantastic display from Saldivar and I'm not sure what more Winstone could have done, his best success was in the early rounds when his jab was controlling it.
But once Saldivar got in his swing, Winstones best success came when he mixed it up and put punches together and even then he ate as many as he threw.

[Counter-puncher]

Good posts Davie nice to have another set of eyes on saldivars technique there

[davie]

Good posts Davie nice to have another set of eyes on saldivars technique there

To be honest, I largely agree with everything you said.

Winstone and Salvidar had a trilogy, I might see if I can watch the other 2 and report back.

[Counter-puncher]

Saldivar was superb. i love the ebbs and flows of this fight, and how Winstone has to 'turn slugger' and go with the right hand/left hook and right to the body once Saldivar takes the jab away from him, he's not as effective as he would be from the outside- you can see he just doesn't have the power in his right hand IMO- but he has to try something and he does take the momentum away from Saldivar a little bit. but then Saldivar wrestles it back again.

the other fights between them are well worth watching too mate from memory, seem to recall Winstone doing some really good early work in both fights.

[Counter-puncher]

But once Saldivar got in his swing, Winstones best success came when he mixed it up and put punches together and even then he ate as many as he threw.

ha, exactly yes

[davie]

https://youtu.be/H1mMLV3T3TU

The second fight between these guys. Another good fight, I actually had Winstone 143-142 up despite being fortunate to see the final bell.

the ref had it very very close to Saldivar, I'd love to see others score cards

1 Winstone - Well boxed opener again
2 Winstone - More of the same, bit more variety
3 Draw- close round, could have gone to Saldivar
4 Winstone - Good use of the left hook we seldom saw in the first fight
5 Winstone - Some wild swinging from Saldivar
6 Winstone - Late rally from Saldivar but Winstone having the last word in too many exchanges, something we seldom seen first fight
7 Saldivar - Timing the jab well and beating winstone to the punch
8 Winstone
9 Winstone - Close round
10 Winstone - Close round again
11 Saldivar - Big round for Saldivar. Some nice left-right combos. seems to have more success leading with the left in combos
12 Saldivar - Winstone having some success off the ropes but getting caught on them far too often
13 Saldivar - Some nice boxing from winstone, but greater work from Saldivar and came on really strong towards the end
14 10-8 Saldivar - Knockdown - No idea how winstone came through that round
15 Saldivar - Excellent finish, bit of a last stand from Winstone and Saldivar just kept throwing everything.

[handsofstone]

Im gonna watch all 3 fights,i'll watch the 1st fight tomorrow

[davie]

I really want to see those missing 3 rounds from the first fight now, having watched the second and seen how close it was
With the 12 rounds we had to score I had it 110-117, with a couple close ones going Saldivars way in the middle.
There is a strong likelyhood Winstone won 2 and 4 and every possibility he may have taken 7.

Which would make that first one a very interesting fight to score.

The final rounds of both fights left you wondering how Winstone was still standing.
But having watched the full first half of the second fight I struggled to see how Saldivar could get back into it without a stoppage. Had I not just watched the first fight days earlier, I wouldn't have thought he had it in him.

[handsofstone]

Decent fight ,pity about there being a few missing rounds not that it wouldve mattered on my card i had Salvidar 118-110 up from the 12 rounds we seen,he's clearly a class boxer Winstone,technically very good,defensively too and there were a couple rounds i was on verge of giving him but i just thought Salvidar was busier.always on the front foot and was landing the more hurtful shots

I'll watch the rematch tomorrow

[davie]

Decent fight ,pity about there being a few missing rounds not that it wouldve mattered on my card i had Salvidar 118-110 up from the 12 rounds we seen,he's clearly a class boxer Winstone,technically very good,defensively too and there were a couple rounds i was on verge of giving him but i just thought Salvidar was busier.always on the front foot and was landing the more hurtful shots

I'll watch the rematch tomorrow

I'd love to see Winstone against a bog standard world level opponent.
If that's him against an ATG I'd like to see how well his excellent boxing skills translate against someone he can easily better.
Although there is the argument that sometimes better fighters bring the best out of certain guys and styles make fights and all that jazz.


Same goes for Saldivar, I think I'd enjoy watching him tear a lesser opponent apart. He did well against Winstone, clearly a very skilled boxer and probably someone who is hard to look good against, it would perhaps be entertaining to see Saldivar in with a fellow Mexican.

[Counter-puncher]

Saldivar - Sugar Ramos is on youtube and well worth a watch Davie

[Boxerbeetle]

Howard Winstone is a genuine Welsh legend of boxing, but I can't remember actually watching very much of him. Will try to watch both fights tonight, cheers for the links guys.

[davie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zimV-vkp3M

Someone posted this one over on the Boxing history forum. Winstone vs Baby Luis
Supposed to be a really good fight.

[PredatorHayds]

Winstone had a great jab and some of the best judgement of getting in and out of distance I've seen from a British fighter.
Saldivar was a great fighter and well worthy of getting top 10 post war feather.