Who is the closest fighter ever to being perfect?

[foxdog1923]

[IKSRTFO]

I would expand on this point & say that if a boxers is okay/good at everything, it won't necessarily make them great boxing champions.

Cases in point:

Muhammad Ali was a great boxer. He used his speed & footwork to great effect, but wad Ali an effective come-forward pressure fighter? I'd have to say no to that.

Roberto Duran was pure controlled agression in the ring. But was he a great defensive tacticitioner? I'd have to say no, Roberto's greatest defense was a cast-iron jaw & responding fire with fire.

In the olden days (which modern boxing presides from) boxers were assessed & their trainers told them to play to their strengths.

Charley Goldman taught Rocky Marciano how to shorten his punches & be more direct with his shots to maximise his power. Rather than throwing shots from a vast variety of angles.

Ray Arcel didn't change Duran's style - he just accentuated it to get the most from Roberto.

Emmanuel Steward worked with Wladimir Klitchsko for years & taught him the importance of his jad. And how to respind when his opponent gets on the inside.

Boxers always play to their strengths. A boxer can be REALLY good at 1 or 2 things & that can be enough for him to be successful.

Like Thomas Hearns or Joe Calzaghe. Both made the best of their strengths and were both hell to deal with in different ways.

Tommy Hearns would have been unbeatable if he had Joe Calzaghe's stamina.

And if Calzaghe had Hearn's power and long jab, he'd probably be top 10 ability wise.

[IKSRTFO]

Perfect, knockout....you, nothing.

[elmersalsa]

I like the great Thomas Hearns. I really do. Especially, at 154lbs. Few fighters were as perfect in one weight class. I mean, the perfect weight class and time for a boxer. Hearns at 154 was a great example. He was a monster. I enjoy watching on YouTube his fights at 154. It's like he could not be defeated there. He was in his total prime. I liked him there better than at welterweight. He had sturdier legs, was fast with that left jab, and hit harder at that weight. He could outbox the best of them like the great Wilfred Benitez and stopped the greatest steel-chinned warriors like Marcos Geraldo and the great Roberto Duran. He was a phenomenal boxer. The total package at 154. And if you add those golden Kronk Boxing Team trunks and his curly hair fashion of the 80s, you see a god in a well chiseled body.

Some say that he didn't had a chin. Some say that he didn't had stamina. But, he was game. He had heart. And that's the greatest thing you can ask for a fighter. If he has a heart and give it all out in the ring, nothing else matters.

[Kalan]

Like Thomas Hearns or Joe Calzaghe. Both made the best of their strengths and were both hell to deal with in different ways.

Tommy Hearns would have been unbeatable if he had Joe Calzaghe's stamina.

And if Calzaghe had Hearn's power and long jab, he'd probably be top 10 ability wise.

Both Calzaghe and Hearns were easy to hit. I don't rate them at all. Calzaghe could absorb a punch real well though. Mitchell decked him with a brutal shot that would have destroyed Hearns. That was a loaded shot if I've ever seen one, but Calz got up throwing. His legs were there. He ducked into a right uppercut from Kessler that was full power. It was point on and shook him up like crazy. Kessler couldn't hit Ward in the ass with one of those and he couldn't follow up his advantage with Calzaghe.. Kessler was inept.. He landed about 3 decent punches on Ward in 11 rounds. Ward is a great boxer. Darnell Boone is the only guy who caught Ward pretty good. It was only a fair shot but he decked him hard. If he were a good finisher he would have gotten Ward out.. He caught Chickenson with a better shot and knocked him TFO.

Lomachenko is the best boxer out there. All his fights are fascinating. If you don't throw he's moving in and out making you throw. He gets right on top of you and he doesn't get hit solid. He keeps working and wears you down. Gary Russell is the best Featherweight in the world by leaps and bounds. Lomachenko made a chump out of him. That was Lomachenko's 3rd pro fight and I couldn't believe it. He's unreal. As far as perfection, I've never seen anybody better.

[foxdog1923]

Perfect, knockout....you, nothing.

You are nothing lol. Go to school boy and learn grammar.

[IKSRTFO]

Tommy Hearns would have been unbeatable if he had Joe Calzaghe's stamina.

And if Calzaghe had Hearn's power and long jab, he'd probably be top 10 ability wise.

Both Calzaghe and Hearns were easy to hit. I don't rate them at all. Calzaghe could absorb a punch real well though. Mitchell decked him with a brutal shot that would have destroyed Hearns. That was a loaded shot if I've ever seen one, but Calz got up throwing. His legs were there. He ducked into a right uppercut from Kessler that was full power. It was point on and shook him up like crazy. Kessler couldn't hit Ward in the ass with one of those and he couldn't follow up his advantage with Calzaghe.. Kessler was inept.. He landed about 3 decent punches on Ward in 11 rounds. Ward is a great boxer. Darnell Boone is the only guy who caught Ward pretty good. It was only a fair shot but he decked him hard. If he were a good finisher he would have gotten Ward out.. He caught Chickenson with a better shot and knocked him TFO.

Lomachenko is the best boxer out there. All his fights are fascinating. If you don't throw he's moving in and out making you throw. He gets right on top of you and he doesn't get hit solid. He keeps working and wears you down. Gary Russell is the best Featherweight in the world by leaps and bounds. Lomachenko made a chump out of him. That was Lomachenko's 3rd pro fight and I couldn't believe it. He's unreal. As far as perfection, I've never seen anybody better.

No one said they were the best. Our convo involved boxers who made the best of their strengths and weakness.

[IKSRTFO]

Perfect, knockout....you, nothing.

You are nothing lol. Go to school boy and learn grammar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAuaR-5XWWo

[Kalan]

After Joey Maxim beat Robinson in defense of the Light Heavyweight Title Robinson declined a rematch...which would have been a bigger fight... He also declined to fight Archie Moore for the LHW Title... I believe SRR fought Maxim because Joey was hittable, slow, and a soft puncher... but after Maxim stopped SRR he clearly didn't want any more... Robinson fans blamed the heat - fine... But Robinson didn't want a repeat and it was just as hot in that ring for Maxim.

I think the problem you have with this argument is not only was SRR comfortably ahead on all three cards at the time of his retirement, but Ruby Goldstein had needed to be replaced 3 rounds earlier due to the same heat exhaustion.

Maxim was almost 16 lbs heavier than SRR, and might well have naturally had more body fluids than Robinson, who knows? But it can be the same in any sport, some competitors handle extreme heat better than others.

Especially if they're damned clever - and pace themselves for 15 rounds and the conditions... Robinson fought like it was an 8 rounder and 70 degrees out. You should only do that if you know you can get your opponent out early.. Maxim was tough.. He'd been knocked out once in 100 fights. "Doc Kearns told me to get Robinson's goat and make him work. Tell him he can't punch and that he couldn't break popcorn... I usually don't do that type of thing, but It worked."

[Kalan]

But It did in this fight... Robinson punched himself out... Listen, if a guy who can't punch hard enough to piss tells you that you can't break popcorn with your weak, anemic punches??? You might want to lay some good shots on him to change his mind and shut his mouth ... even if you're Sugar Ray Robinson.

[jas80s]

Damned right... NOBODY wins 72 of their first 73 fights, as Duran did, if they can't box... Henry Armstrong, for instance, won 55 of his first 73 fights.

I know Ray Robinson won 71 of his first 73 fights, but it's not the same as Duran.. Robinson was matched to get wins.. Duran fought a lot of guys who could box really well, such as Monroe Brooks.. Estaban De Jesus.. Edwin Viruet.. Lou Bizzarro.. Ray Lampkin.. Ken Buchanan.. Ray Leonard and he was still beating these guys... Robinson fought a couple guys who could box---like Marty Servo who he beat by SD and the MSG crowd booed the decision for 20 minutes---but SRR didn't fight the same caliber of boxers that Duran did to that point, and actually never did.

There was a point where Duran wasn't Duran anymore... Where he didn't give a major crap whether he won or lost... That came with all the money and accolades of the first Leonard Fight... Duran was King of the World after he beat Leonard and that kind of led to the "NO MAS" fight.. the Benitez fight.. The Kirkland Laing fight, and other bad nights.. Duran always seemed a little soft and chubby the rest of the way.. He had money and fame to burn.. That's no credit to Duran, or any excuse for his attitude -- but that's what happened.

I can see that your opinion is that SRR is not among the ATG's, but your attempts to justify his absence with anything other than your opinion of his fighting ability contains double standards that hurt your argument. For example...

In dismissing his accomplishments over the first 131 fights of his career, you point out the Servo fight in which he won a controversial decision. OK, let's set aside that Servo was a terrific fighter who became welterweight champion, in an era when there was exactly one champion as opposed to today when practically anybody who can throw a punch with either hand is a two division champion, but I digress. You attempted to dismiss what Robinson did by cherry picking a controversial decision. Yet, Floyd Mayweather is on your list of great fighters and he had a very controversial win himself over Jose Luis Castillo. So, I am not convinced that the mere presence of a controversial win should undermine his accomplishments.

Second, you say that Robinson was "matched to win". I am not sure what that means, but I can only surmise that you are suggesting that he avoided certain fighters. Once again, I am not sure how you do that for 190 plus fights when your opponent list contains a silly amount of HOF caliber fighters, but again I digress. I think I know where you are going with this, Robinson never fought Charley Burley, and let's throw in Holman Williams for the hell of it. OK, the central thing to consider here to my eyes is that NOBODY wanted to see those fights which means there wouldn't be much of a prize in that prize fight. That would be enough for me, but even if it is not enough for you consider that Jack Johnson refused to fight his own "Black Murderers Row" citing the same reason. For the record, Jack Johnson is on your list of ATG fighters. So, again there would be appear to be a higher standard for Robinson.

Finally, Duran was "no longer Duran" after the first Leonard fight. But, Robinson after 130 fights and over a decade of fighting practically every month and 20 pounds north of his debut weight was the same Robinson as ever? You could easily dump on Duran's record starting at 147, in fact it would be even easier than dumping on Robinson's record. A difference in their career paths over the last third of their careers would seem to be nothing more than your opinion. If you wanted to argue that Duran was better at Lightweight than Robinson at Welter, that would be fine, but dumping on Robinson's record in his last 50 fights while excusing Duran's late career with a casual, "he just wasn't Duran anymore" strains credibility.

And the scary thing is, these inconsistencies in your approach can be found on THESE, stupidly awesome fighters! I am not even discussing some of the guys on your list that, shall we say, might not be consensus choices among those who have followed boxing closely for a long time.

As always, I have no problem with the suggestion that Robinson could be overrated by some, but the attempts at some kind of logical breakdown of his record and that of others produces these inconsistencies that illuminate a far simpler truth; In your opinion, Ray Robinson is overrated. I appreciate opinions, but I just can't see how this guy doesn't stack up, it seems like he will forever be punished by the fact that his career continued after 27 fights and Edwin Valero's did not.

I don't think Valero should be punished because of his mental illness and because he was a 2-Division world Champion who died undefeated and untied.

Jack Johnson fought Joe Jeanette, Sam Langford, Sam McVey, and Hank Griffin... He beat them all.. They didn't qualify for Title shots. Too bad.

Duran started fighting at 119 and won a World MIddleweight Title which is 41 pounds and 34% north of that... Robinson started fighting at 135 and tried to win the LHW Title which is 40 pounds and 30% north of that.. Robinson made 1 attempt to win the LHW Title and Duran made several attempts to win the Middleweight Title.. Robinson decided to stay at 160 where he was tall, ripped, and strong for the weight.. Duran decided to fight at 160 were he was very short, pudgy, and weak for the weight.. Robinson sought the Middleweight Title for the last time at 39.. Duran sought the Middleweight Title for the last time when he was 47, an age where Robinson was safely retired.. Duran didn't have a chance in Hell, but he tried..

After Joey Maxim beat Robinson in defense of the Light Heavyweight Title Robinson declined a rematch...which would have been a bigger fight... He also declined to fight Archie Moore for the LHW Title... I believe SRR fought Maxim because Joey was hittable, slow, and a soft puncher... but after Maxim stopped SRR he clearly didn't want any more... Robinson fans blamed the heat - fine... But Robinson didn't want a repeat and it was just as hot in that ring for Maxim.

Actually, you are off on your facts here. The FACT is, Langford chased Johnson for a shot and Johnson told him that there was flat out no interest and therefore no money in watching two black men fight for the heavyweight championship. He didn't want the pain in the ass of fighting Langford for chump change...If only there were a figher in Ray Robinson's time who would represent a similar case.........oh....wait a second...

Yes, it is true he fought them before, he beat them, but you omitted the fact that, with the exception of Langford, the others had less than 10 recorded fights when they fought him, but nonetheless, the previous wins are not really the issue unless you are suggesting that they were not deserving opponents. So, it would be your suggestion that Johnson's choices for his opponents after winning the title were better and more deserving than the fighters we're talking about here? Interesting. I would have expected you to be pretty down on the great white hopes, in your vernacular, they seemed kind of slow. But, you continually surprise me, Hearns doesn't impress you, but the great white hopes? You like what you see.

Interesting thoughts on Duran, and I won't get into the math of moving up, but if we're talking about them at 160, I would say that Robinson accomplished way more and that should be considered even if you totally omit it from the discussion. Yes, I know the record in title fights, etc but Robinsion holds an historic place, while Duran did nothing at the weight. In fact, Duran had zero wins of any import above 154 and several losses to guys that you yourself don't rate highly like: Hearns, Hagler, and Benitez. Granted, many think those guys can fight, but you don't, so I can't buy into your efforts to prop up his record while still detracting from Robinson's; just not seeing it. And I'm not going to denigrate him for supposedly "avoiding" Archie Moore at 175 even though I don't accept your premise in the first place.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd rate Duran's win over Barkley as one of the best ever at 160. Certainly more than "nothing".

[elmersalsa]

I'd rate Duran's win over Barkley as one of the best ever at 160. Certainly more than "nothing".

And he did it at 37 years of age and washed up. It was his last hurrah. Incredible feat for a fighter fighting 25 or 30 pounds out of his prime weight and defeated a champion that was very good and was taller, bigger, faster and stronger than he. Incredible! A top 5 ATG p4p fighter as far as I'm concerned.

[Kalan]

Actually, you are off on your facts here. The FACT is, Langford chased Johnson for a shot and Johnson told him that there was flat out no interest and therefore no money in watching two black men fight for the heavyweight championship. He didn't want the pain in the ass of fighting Langford for chump change...If only there were a figher in Ray Robinson's time who would represent a similar case.........oh....wait a second...

Yes, it is true he fought them before, he beat them, but you omitted the fact that, with the exception of Langford, the others had less than 10 recorded fights when they fought him, but nonetheless, the previous wins are not really the issue unless you are suggesting that they were not deserving opponents. So, it would be your suggestion that Johnson's choices for his opponents after winning the title were better and more deserving than the fighters we're talking about here? Interesting. I would have expected you to be pretty down on the great white hopes, in your vernacular, they seemed kind of slow. But, you continually surprise me, Hearns doesn't impress you, but the great white hopes? You like what you see.

Interesting thoughts on Duran, and I won't get into the math of moving up, but if we're talking about them at 160, I would say that Robinson accomplished way more and that should be considered even if you totally omit it from the discussion. Yes, I know the record in title fights, etc but Robinsion holds an historic place, while Duran did nothing at the weight. In fact, Duran had zero wins of any import above 154 and several losses to guys that you yourself don't rate highly like: Hearns, Hagler, and Benitez. Granted, many think those guys can fight, but you don't, so I can't buy into your efforts to prop up his record while still detracting from Robinson's; just not seeing it. And I'm not going to denigrate him for supposedly "avoiding" Archie Moore at 175 even though I don't accept your premise in the first place.

I never said Hearns, Hagler, and Benitez couldn't fight.. They were all great fighters.. Hearns and Benitez had glaring flaws in their defense.. Hagler was a great fighter as well as a good boxer -- but I rank many quicker Middleweights ahead of him.. Duran fought his first 64 fights from 119 to 135.. Just as Robinson was at a distinct disadvantage at 175---and never won a fight there---Duran was too small and weak for many at 154 and 160.. However, Duran was able to beat 2-time Hearns conqueror Iran Barkley at 160, lifting his World title -- and he showed Hagler a few looks in their contested 15 rounder.. Duran fought about 45 fights from 154 to 160 and heavier.. And I don't judge people by color so I don't know what you're talking about with Johnson.. Promoters weren't going to let him fight a lot of black challengers in that day. He was the first American Heavyweight Champion to fight a black challenger in Jim Johnson. He had a larger than life personality and that helped get him a title shot when other black fighters couldn't.

[jaclem3]

..i like kalan's listing of harold johnson vs. doug jones among perfect performanaces. it's virtually a lesson in how to apply one's craft.

but....kalan keeps telling us artie levine knocked sugar ray down. hey kalan, to make your case you could have added that srr probably got a long count. but...you forget to add that the sugarman knocked the heavier levine out in the tenth round.

[Crease]

Robinson started fighting at 135 and tried to win the LHW Title which is 40 pounds and 30% north of that.. Robinson made 1 attempt to win the LHW Title

Robinson was ducked like the plague. Then, eventually when he did book a fight with the (then) Lightweight World Champion - Sammy Angott in July '41. But Angott would NOT put his Lightweight title on the line.
That is hardly Sugar Ray's fault.



And to add insult to injury, Sugar Ray put him away again in July '42 when Sammy was still the Lightweight World Champion, but again - no title was ever forthcoming.
So for all intents and purposes, Robinson should have been the rightful Lightweight Champion TWICE over.....

Maybe you should think about that long and hard before discussing Robinson's career with a half-baked understanding of the boxing scene of that day.